Kris L. Christine Introduction

[Kris L. Christine]

Greetings!

 

My name is Kris L. Christine. I live in Maine and am the Founder and Co-Trustee of THE RABIES CHALLENGE FUND (www.RabiesChallengeFund.org). My precious canine companion, Meadow, developed a malignant mast cell tumor directly on the site of his rabies shot at the age of 6 (syringe hole still visible in the tumor) and died in July after repeated surgeries failed to yield clean margins and the cancer metasticized throughout his body.

 

It is my goal to make available to all dog owners the scientific data on the known durations of immunity for canine vaccines and the adverse reactions associated with them so that they can make informed vaccine decisions for their beloved companions. In 2004 I launched a successful effort to change Maine's rabies immunization regulations for dogs from 2 to 3 years and insert a medical exemption clause; later that year Representative Peter Rines introduced the nation's first pet vaccine disclosure legislation on my behalf.

 

If anyone would like copies of the American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, the 1992 French challenge study demonstrating that dogs were immune to a rabies challenge 5 years after vaccination, the 2003 Italian study documenting fibrosarcomas at the presumed injection sites of rabies vaccines in dogs, as well as Dr. W. Jean Dodds' papers on vaccinal adverse reactions, please e-mail me at ledgespring@lincoln.midcoast.com.

 

PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST my vaccine informational posts.

 

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

 

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

 

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

 

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/.

[Sue R]

Welcome to the boards. It's obvious that you have a great deal of interest and have done a lot of personal investigation into vaccination protocols, research, and vaccination legislation pertaining to dogs.

 

However, you might get more response if you did not use the shotgun approach and overload the board with multiple, related posts all at one time. Just a thought.

[Wendy V]

Ah! Doncha just love new members with a hard and fast agenda? Just warms the heart. Uh, Eileen, can we put a muzzle on this one? The multiple posts in the Health section is NOT helpful to any reasonable discussion.

[Eileen Stein]

I agree that it's quite a barrage, and there's a fair amount of duplication and repetition, but this is generally good information, well sourced, and could be helpful to people who haven't come across it before. I do think it would be more likely to get read if it came in more gradual doses.

 

Welcome to the Boards, Kris.

[bc4pack]

There is also a Yahoo group for those interested not only in vax damage but also posts regarding pending

legislation that affects dog owners 'justsayno2vax' is the group name... started by a dog owner who lost

her dog due to rabies vax reaction.

 

Dogs simply do not need yearly vax any more than we do...

[juliepoudrier]

I was on that list for a while, but they were a little over the top for me. Lots of comments about rabies cases in wild animals really being distemper (it felt a lot like being among conspiracy theory types--as if there was some huge cover up and all the supposed positive rabies cases were really something else, as in distemper). I'm a little more moderate than that and ended up leaving the list. It's a shame because I think there's probably some sound advice there as well....

 

J.

[bc4pack]

Well lately there has been a lot of info on fighting mandatory speuter bills across the country , support for the

Rabies Challenge Fund and is well known for being anti -AR.

 

The group ' truthaboutvax' is pure homeopathy and altough I don't have anything against homeopathy ,the list

is not quite my cup of tea.

[Eileen Stein]

Although I'm not familiar with either of those web groups, there is certainly a lot of wretched excess on the vaccination issue, and it can tend to obscure the valid stuff. It also turns me off to read a lot of "vets just push vaccines to increase their income" rhetoric, since I believe there are very few vets of which this can legitimately be said.

[bc4pack]

There are still many though that with an uninformed owner will just automatically vax. There are still

many vets that are really concerned that their clients won't come in for a yearly wellness exam... but those

vax reminders will bring 'em in.

 

Many folks aren't even aware that the only vax required by law is rabies... Dogs get jabbed every year

because owners don't know enough to say 'No.'

I certainly don't blame vets for making money, which they do off of shots... but there are still many that

can't quite go with the minimal vax protocols.

I feel that what shots my dogs get or don't get falls on me. It is MY responsibility to inform myself, just as anyone

would regarding healthcare. Of course you should find a vet that you are comfortable and trust but 'blind trust'

isn't part of that equation.... not in my book anyway...

[juliepoudrier]

I agree about the "blind trust" thing. What sent me to Justsayno2vax was an incident at my vet's office when I had Twist spayed. I specifically told them that I did NOT want her vaccinated, that I had her on a 3-year schedule and she was not due. They vaccinated her anyway. Here was a dog undergoing major surgery for a spay and mammary chain lump removal, which I certainly don't think is the best time to be stressing the body further with vaccines, and they did it anyway. When I complained, they knocked the cost of the vaccine off the bill, but I don't think they ever understood that it wasn't the $$ that was the issue but the fact that they ignored my specific request NOT to vaccinate my dog!

 

J.

[Kate@JIm]

"vets just push vaccines to increase their income" rhetoric, since I believe there are very few vets of which this can legitimately be said.

 

Having a very good veterinarian friend over the past 25 years, she would disagree. -

I've heard too many stories from her, the places she worked about veterinarians.

Clients put veterinarians up on a pedestal, and believe they can do no wrong to their fluffy dog.

 

Veterinarians are no different then there being bad lawyers, doctors, teachers.

as in any occupation, there are veterinarians that "just don't care" & want to make more money.

-why do some people find that hard to believe?

 

But I do think the majority do care, or at least I hope they do....

 

Julie - I had the same experience as you. I had a dog that needed dental extraction ( broke a tooth on a bone) My regular vet. was off, so I had another vet at the same hospital. They saw on her chart she was behind on "routine" vaccinations. ( my vet does limited puppy vac's & rabies only) She was 13 and didn't need it, plus having surgery was a very bad time. They did it anyway, my vet. was furious with her co-workers. It WAS about making more money for the hospital. In the past she had seizures after vaccinations and it was charted.

[Eileen Stein]

There are still many vets that are really concerned that their clients won't come in for a yearly wellness exam... but those vax reminders will bring 'em in.

 

True, I think many vets are concerned about that, but not just for their bottom line. It's also concern for the dog's wellbeing.

 

Many folks aren't even aware that the only vax required by law is rabies.

 

I would really be surprised if there were many people who aren't aware of this.

 

Veterinarians are no different then there being bad lawyers, doctors, teachers.

as in any occupation, there are veterinarians that "just don't care" & want to make more money.

-why do some people find that hard to believe?

 

I don't find it hard to believe at all. I don't put vets on a pedestal. I believe it's my responsibility to be knowledgeable about my dogs' medical welfare (and about my own, for that matter), and to stay away from vets like that. I just have to say that the vets of that type that I have run into are a very tiny percentage of the total vets I have dealt with. I have literally never had a vet try to talk me into vaccinating more often than I thought appropriate, and I've had a number of vets discourage vaccination and other profitable procedures, telling me year after year NOT to vaccinate against Lyme back when I wanted to, for example, or telling me not to vaccinate against coronavirus 15 or 20 years ago when people were flaunting frequent and extensive vaccination as the mark of responsible dog ownership, much as testing for every known canine disorder is flaunted today. (I didn't want to vaccinate for corona, but a loony sheepdog clinic host was insisting that all clinic participants had to have it. I cancelled, and she sent me a letter ripping my vet up one side and down the other for being so backward as to advise against it.) I cannot imagine any of the vets I have gone to vaccinating my dog without asking me when the dog was in for another procedure; I'm sure it happens, but very, very rarely, and it would be a firing offense IMO.

 

I would just prefer to see the vaccination issue addressed on its merits, rather than by casting blanket aspersions on vets' motives. Aside from the fact that most vets don't deserve this criticism, their motives are really irrelevant, aren't they? If they are advocating something bad for the dog, it doesn't matter if their motives are pure as the driven snow, and if they are advocating something good for the dog, it doesn't matter if they're doing it for profit.

[Jack & Co.]

I would just prefer to see the vaccination issue addressed on its merits, rather than by casting blanket aspersions on vets' motives. Aside from the fact that most vets don't deserve this criticism, their motives are really irrelevant, aren't they? If they are advocating something bad for the dog, it doesn't matter if their motives are pure as the driven snow, and if they are advocating something good for the dog, it doesn't matter if they're doing it for profit.

Beautifully said, Eileen. Thank you!

[AK dog doc]

I'll also thank you, Eileen. The argument that "vets" (which term includes me, and a great many others who don't deserve these accusations) do things that act against the animal's well-being, strictly for money, is not only galling, it doesn't hold water. If you're smart enough to get into vet school, and money is your motivation, you're smart enough to get into med school, where you actually stand a chance of making significant cash - MUCH more significant cash than you'll ever see as a vet. And this is for doing the self-same work, although with the added bonus that you don't have to concern yourself with more than a single species, so in reality it's probably easier - or so contends my OWN doctor, not to mention several clients I have who are MDs. Moreover you don't have to get up in the middle of the night on call after working a full day (human emergency rooms abound, staffed by people who HAVEN'T just worked all day and who don't have to work all day tomorrow either). Yep, clearly an enticing proposition - all that so you can make maybe $45 K your first year out, and so that you can maybe double that if you keep at it for 15 or 20 years. Never mind those hundred thousand dollars you owe in student loans and your 18 year old truck. Those'll disappear in NO time if you vaccinate animals that don't need it. Why, you might make anything up to $5 for giving an unnecessary vaccine! It's SOOOOO worth it to violate your professional ethics and your own moral standards (not to mention the animal's well-being) for that kind of cash!

 

Speaking for myself personally, the clients who just want their yearly vaccines wihout thinking and who WON'T come in for annual exams out of interest in the animal's well-being unless vaccines are used as a bribe, are clients I don't personally want. I've sometimes had to work quite hard to convince people that they should NOT vaccinate their pets yearly (except for those vaccines which don't provide a longer duration of immunity, against agents from which the animal is legitimately at risk.) I spend all KINDS of uncompensated time explaining to people who do their OWN vaccines - from which I will of course never see a dime, since they buy said vaccines at a pet store or on-line - that they should NOT be vaccinating yearly. But never mind all that, and never mind all the other nameless vets out there who do the same as I do, without praise, without acknowledgement, without financial benefit or recognition of any kind. It's all about the money for us.

 

Yes, some vets are better than others. That's the nature of ALL professions. However, having been through vet school myself (anyone else here done that?), I can assure you that it is WAY too much work, for WAY too little monetary reward, to make it worth it if your main concern is money. Nobody gets into it thinking they're going to make big bucks. They get into it thinking they're going to make a difference. And, silly me - here, I've been sharing my knowledge and expertise with people on the Boards for YEARS, now, and doing it for free, when I could have been out violating my personal and professional ethics in the interest of a few bucks. But no, what an idiot, I've been spending my extremely valuable free time trying to make a difference - for free.

 

Why did I even bother?

[Pippin's person]

AK--I don't know how long you've been in practice, but I wonder if you seen an increase in claims that vets are acting out of monetary interest over the last decade or so? It seems to me that as access to information has increased (a great thing), the idea that anyone can be an expert on Topic X has also increased (not always such a great thing)

 

While I certainly believe everyone has the responsibility to educate themselves as much as possible on things that matter to them or those they are responsible for and to make decisions accordingly--i also think there is a benefit to the fact that some people are experts and some aren't and that having an opinion (even an informed one) doesn't necessarily make you an expert. I'd honestly rather spend my time finding out who the best experts are in some area of my life and consult with them than to try and become an expert in all the areas that might be relevant to my life. At least the former is somewhat feasible.

 

I don't actually have the time or inclination to go to vet school so I do indeed believe it's in my and my dogs' best interests to work with people, vets in this case, who have; who have the knowledge that I don't; and whose professional lives depend on keeping up with current, scientifically-oriented work in a variety of fields. That there are bad vets, or vets acting out of monetary interest, out there is hardly a reason to question the expertise of the profession.

 

I suspect that your clients are very glad you bothered--I'm glad that the most of the vets I've worked with bothered.

 

That's also true of the fine women who taught me through public schools; the dentists and doctors out there who I've worked with over the years; the lawyers and tax consultants; the big hats who give herding clinics; the fire and police officers; etc. etc. these are all groups of experts on whom I can rely (though not blindly) and who make it possible for me to focus on things in my life that I do have the time and interest to learn more about.

 

Sorry for the rant--I just get tired of expert-bashing sometimes....

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>Why did I even bother? <<

 

Because you are a decent, honest and down-to-earth person who we all LOVE dearly.

 

On Vets, I love my vet. I moved almost 8 yrs ago and I make the hour long drive to go to him still. I have vet within 5 minutes of me but that's not the point. Kit has been an awesome vet and has been my vet for close to 15 yrs.

 

Vets like Kit and YOU are GOLD!! I am truely blessed to have both of you in my life!!!

 

Diane

[SincereArtisan]

I think I'm with AK Dog Doc on this one. I just don't see vets as out to get people's money. Its not exactly the big-bucks field. And annual vaccines don't really pull in that much cash. I mean, you may have vets that are really, really good at what they do, and sure they may charge more for their expertise, but seriously....why be a vet, pay for ALL that school, if you're not going to help animals? You become a vet to benefit the creatures you treat, not yourself. This conspiracy stuff just irks me.

 

I work at a vet clinic, and there are plenty of people who bring their animals in for their annual vax, who wouldn't come in for any other reason, and they are suddenly made aware of some other issue with their pet. Sometimes these are serious issues. We also don't get many vaccine reactions, either. The most common reaction has been to Lepto in the distemper vaccine, and after a year there I have seen only 3 cases of this...and I work at a clinic with 3 vets, who see at least 100 clients a week, many of them for annuals. And besides, two of these three reactions were in toy breeds, which are more vulnerable to them anyway. Sure, we have toy breeds and other dogs who come in, who have had vax reactions in the past....BUT each case is treated seperatly, and the vet does whats best for the animal, not what is best for his/her checkbook.

 

If these vax were made to be given every 7 years, well my main concern would be for the animals that don't get looked at twice, except to be brought in for their yearly vax. These animals would be going undiagnosed for other problems., which could be caught at an early stage. You wouldn't believe how many people do not realize their dogs have severe chronic ear infections, which is incredibly painful for the dog, and would not be treated at all if it were not for that annual vaccine appointment.

 

If your dog has a weak immune system, many vets will do what is best for the dog and not vaccinate it, or split the vax up. I can't think that there would be a vet out there so hell bent on making an extra 5 bucks that they would go ahead and do it at the dog's expense. ONOH, if you request that your dog not be vaccinated, like Julie did, I think they should respect your wishes... but I still wager there was some form of miscommunication or something, and they didn't do it for monetary gain.

[laurie etc]

Nobody gets into it thinking they're going to make big bucks. They get into it thinking they're going to make a difference. And, silly me - here, I've been sharing my knowledge and expertise with people on the Boards for YEARS, now, and doing it for free, when I could have been out violating my personal and professional ethics in the interest of a few bucks. But no, what an idiot, I've been spending my extremely valuable free time trying to make a difference - for free.

 

Why did I even bother?

 

 

Because you are good person who truly cares about the INDIVIDUAL animals you treat, and about people and animals in general. You are one of a rare breed. Thank you!

 

I do know a few vets like you; I ADORE them! But I also know plenty of vets who may have started out caring, conscientious, wanting to make a difference; but do not take the time to consider an individual animal's best interest. I don't think it's a money thing at all. It's more of a "volume thing" that comes from living and working in our fast paced society. They work in "production line" veterinary clinics, where one protocol fits all. They will vaccinate with everything under the sun because the drug companies make/test the vaccines, so they "must" be safe; and they espouse the feeling that "more is better" when it comes to disease protection. Drug companies sell this idea. They are the ones making the big bucks, not the vets. Busy, overbooked, overworked vets may not have the time or desire to read up on what the latest studies are proving. It's easier and more efficient to just go ahead and hit 'em with a 5-way vaccine, a rabies vaccine, dewormer, medication for ticks and fleas, drops for their itchy ears, and send 'em out the door with a bag of Science Diet.

 

Unless a client educates himself, he has no way of knowing whether what a vet does to his animal is appropriate or not. I'd throw this back in the pet owner's corner. It's our responsibility as animal owners/caregivers to be "educated consumers". Read up, ask questions, get answers. Then make an educated decision for your own animals; hopefully with the help of an educated, caring veterinarian you can trust to treat your animals as individuals.

 

Laurie

[Kate@JIm]

I'll also thank you, Eileen. The argument that "vets" (which term includes me, and a great many others who don't deserve these accusations) Why, you might make anything up to $5 for giving an unnecessary vaccine! It's SOOOOO worth it to violate your professional ethics and your own moral standards (not to mention the animal's well-being) for that kind of cash!

 

 

This is not about you! I don't know you, it's a statement in general! I'm a retired teacher, I hear ALL the time about lousy teachers. I don't take it personally. It's about the profession. There is good and bad in ALL professions. I certainly didn't go into teaching for the money either.

 

"Why, you might make anything up to $5 for giving an unnecessary vaccine"

 

I've never had a $5.00 dollar vaccine. Add office visit...professional visit...exam...that is close to $100.00 here. Then add heartworm test, fecal or any other blood work, you're paying $$$ I'm fine with paying.........it's not about the money!!! It's about good quality care.

 

I agree with the above poster......you said it much better then me.

I'm not message board savvy.

When the ice melts I can go outside again..

[SincereArtisan]

$5.00 vaccine, as in that is what the vet profits. He gets them for maybe $7, sells them for $12, and profits $5, something of THAT nature.

[Dixie_Girl]

Here is some food for thought. This is the bill list from Skip and Jackson's last vet visit.

Jackson:

Exam $32.00

DHLPP 20.00

Rabies 10.00

Discount/courtesy

dhlpp/rabies 30.00

 

Skip:

Exam $32.00

DHLPP 20.00

Rabies 10.00

Discount/courtesy

dhlpp/rabies 30.00

 

Total:$64.00

 

 

And he spent almost an hour with them. They had a thorough check over. And yeah, that would come to $64.00 an hour, but he did have to pay overhead. And he didn't get the vaccines free. So, I guess he hasn't got the word on the big bucks coming in through vaccines. Oh, and he hosts a clinic once a month in his parking lot, where he gives vaccines at cost.

 

There are some vets, just like people docs that may not make the right decisions concerning care. But, in the grand scope of things, they don't last long. Rep IS everything!

[Liz P]

As consumers you may or may not be aware of it but in veterinary medicine there has been a huge shift away from making any profit on drugs/vaccines/products and towards making the profit from the service and expertise provided. For example, in the past some vets would not charge for the annual appointment and instead make their money by vaccinating. Today vets are being encouraged to charge for an annual wellness check, only recommend vaccines if they are needed by the individual pet and instead focus on a thorough exam and identifying any health problems the pet is experiencing.

 

Here is some perspective for all of the non vet folks out there. Many veterinary students graduating in the next few years will be paying off more than a half million dollars in tuition and interest on their student loans for the privilege of helping your pets and farm animals lead a healthier life. There are handlers out there who charge more than twice what the average vet makes per hour for stock dog lessons. I know a vet who hauls her ponies to birthday parties and she makes twice as much in one day doing that as she does working full time in a small animal clinic.

[ShoresDog]

Slight diversion here (sorry!) -- I just did a quick search because I was curious about the number of women in veterinary medicine. The first reference that popped up was the Banfield Journal, whose homepage states:

More than 50 percent of the veterinary profession is made up of women and that percentage is growing rapidly. Sixty five percent of the students in veterinary school are women, with the female population at some schools as high as 90 percent.

 

Being an old-school feminist, I'm always suspicious that as women begin to dominate a field, the respect and pay go down! I hope that isn't the case with veterinary medicine, just as the field is becoming ever more sophisticated and complex. I've had great vets of both sexes, and we love our current set, who are all women. Their knowledge and caring are immense. A while ago, I actually changed my doctor and my kids' pediatrician when I recognized that if there were ever a serious medical emergency, the one I would trust the most was our vet!!

 

And I couldn't agree more with Pippin's Person's point about respecting expertise vs. opinion. The most-emailed article from the New York Times this weekend speaks to this very phenomenon in American life:

 

Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

 

I guess where I'm rambling to with this is, AK Dog Doc and other vets, you are appreciated!

[Liz P]

The research indicates that fewer men started going into vet med when the pay did not keep up with inflation. So, it was the reduction in pay and respect that made men leave the profession, not the other way around (men leaving/women entering that drove salaries down). At the same time the cost of vet school has skyrocketed.

[painted_ponies]

Here is some perspective for all of the non vet folks out there. Many veterinary students graduating in the next few years will be paying off more than a half million dollars in tuition and interest on their student loans for the privilege of helping your pets and farm animals lead a healthier life. There are handlers out there who charge more than twice what the average vet makes per hour for stock dog lessons. I know a vet who hauls her ponies to birthday parties and she makes twice as much in one day doing that as she does working full time in a small animal clinic.

 

Yep. I made a career change at age 40. My undergrad major would have allowed me to enter vet school, so the two professions at the top of my list were veterinary medicine and law. Since my working life would be shorter than someone graduating in her twenties, I compared the amount of debt I'd incur vs. what I could expect to earn during my first five years of practice. I went to law school.

 

I also wasn't sure I was temperamentally suited to be a vet. I figured about the fifth time I heard "If it costs more than $50 to cure it, just kill it," I'd probably need a lawyer. So I just decided to go ahead and be one.