3dogslater Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Also, she was the only dog (that I can recall) that had any kind of performance titles, so that was nice too. Are you only taking about the borders and aussies? The St. Bernard who took BOB has rally and weight pull titles as well as a versatility title from the Saint Club...you met him at the QBall trial last April! Woofer was with me for three months when I trained him for the movie...as a working dog goes, he's pretty well rounded. It would be nice if many of the breeds were still bred for their original purpose...shepherds, dobermans, retrievers...so many of the breeds are a shadow of what they used to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Well, Dobes were intended to be attack dogs for tax collectors, so I'm not sure that's an application that I want a dog to retain.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDesertSpice Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 deleted.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Well, Dobes were intended to be attack dogs for tax collectors, so I'm not sure that's an application that I want a dog to retain.... Hmmm... You don't?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Which Mark Derr book? Dogs in America? That was a fun if slightly depressing read. It was pretty easy to filter through the rants to get to the scholarship, and I agreed with a lot of his assessment on the origin of the "sport of purebred dogs." Yes, and bloodhounds and many other mastiff breeds were man killers, so definitely we wouldn't want to literally retain original purpose there. But there are other things such dogs can do - weight pull, carting, therapy work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Neopolitan Mastiffs, tho not exactly my cup of tea were also manstoppers, but the neo in the conformation ring looks nothing like it's working brother, who is functional. The Neo's in the ring now are a compilation of exaggeration of physical characteristics (basically, that's what happens to most breeds in the conformation ring), so now you have Neo's with two foot lips and really, kind of disgusting looking. the Fila -- not yet recognized by AKC, maybe it never will be? Because the words "loathing of strangers" is in the breed standard and conformation judges in don't put their hands on Fila's. They're not supposed to. Or would the hope of AKC "recognition" change the standard for this breed forever --by changing the wording -- from "loathing" to something else. If it were tolerant of strangers, it wouldn't be a fila. If temperaments were changed to accomodate the breed ring, wouldn't that be changing the essence of the breed. I have a friend who judged a dog show in Russia in the early 90's. She judged the Caucasian Ovcharka's. Lack of training, probably, but she said it was pretty scary to walk through the handlers with this breed because it was all they could do to hold onto the dogs who either wanted to fight each other or take her down as she walked to the ring. Those days are gone. Maybe the dogs are better trained these days, or maybe the aggressive "edge" to this breed and other breeds have been bred out. Just some rambling thoughts. I don't want the CO to become a big golden retriever, in love with the world, but just as the breed ring has turned the conformation neo into a fat & ugly slug, CO's might become big fluffy teddy bears with a golden type of temperament. Then I don't know what you'd have, but it would no longer be a CO. Too many breeds have become caricatures of their ancestors, in looks, even in temperament. OK. Sorry for rambling. My pack is calling. Gotta go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Did anyone else notice how agitated the Beauceron appeared while being examined by the judge? Finally getting around to this thread. I noticed that also. Just was wonder how that dog made it that far. Maybe because there were so few of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 With all due respect to Bill, because I have never made it to a trial in any part of Yorkshire. But the folks I've seen with working border collies wear mucky wellies with twill pants, wool jumpers, and canvas jackets. Then again, they are working with the dogs, not trotting around in circles with them. We were welcomed into one field - on a "permissive path" - by tow guys who alternated grabbing a lamb from its ewe, holding it high, and spraying the appropriate paint to mark its haunch. Again and again. And the dogs had to separate out the sheep and get them to the men. No time for tweed skirts and funky pumps. I wasn't talking about field work -- I was talking about market day. Coat and tie and wellies was the norm, not the exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra s. Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 It's the dogs' faces that are worth watching IMO. This should be called "How To Keep Your Dignity Against All Odds". Look at how some of them look at their humans. It makes me thankful for Kessie's dirty looks - at least she considers me capable of interpreting them and giving them fair consideration. Maybe these people started out showing for fun - as in "something to do together with your dog". Maybe small shows are different, I have no idea what they're like. But at that level (Westminster) I see neither "fun" nor "together". If someone tried to hang my dog from one of those little nooses to make sure she didn't move when strangers poked around her privates, they'd have to get past me first. Of course I take her places that stress her out. Of course she has to cope with stuff she dislikes, we all do. But that's not what I'd do in order to have fun with her. Sorry for the small rant - the noose-yanking really p*sses me off. I'm not implying that dog shows are any different over here, btw. I've never watched one so I don't know. I can't see the BCs either, only an advertisement. Most other breeds are accessible to me...weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I can't see the BCs either, only an advertisement. Most other breeds are accessible to me...weird. Maybe it's to keep your blood pressure down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra s. Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Maybe it's to keep your blood pressure down. That's exactly what I was thinking. No Aussies for me, either, btw. Not exactly missing out there either, of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 It's the dogs' faces that are worth watching IMO. This should be called "How To Keep Your Dignity Against All Odds". Sandra, that reminds me of a few years ago when we were at a big conformation show here (we were doing an agility demo) and saw the Best in Show judging. BIS was won by a Standard Poodle in full continental clip, complete with a huge forward pointing mane that some punk rocker would kill for. This dog gaited round the ring, looking at the crowd with a look which said "I dare you to laugh at me" - mind you, he also looked at the judge with this huge presence, the look clearly saying - "I dare you not to give me BIS". He was a dog with character - pity he had to be got up like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Sandra, that was what bothered me. The BCs themselves looked wholly unhappy. It was as if they didn't "get it"; why are they here? Why are they trotting around? As for the Beauceron being timid/squirrely- I am not surprised, they are not that popular as show dogs, and thusly, haven't been dumbed down to be made numb to this. I just wish the Beauceron folks wouldn't have gone to AKC to up their registration numbers. It is high time there be a real, respected registration system out there for these "new to AKC breeds" to chose instead of AKC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 It is high time there be a real, respected registration system out there for these "new to AKC breeds" to chose instead of AKC. These breeds already have a native registry of their own, similar to the ABCA. Many breeds with a high percentage of imports also have an FCI-affiliated registry in their home country. An imported Maremma sheepdog, for instance, could be registered both in CPMA (Circolo da Pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese) and also the Maremma Sheepdog Club of America. A CPMA registered dog could be shown in FCI bench shows overseas or in Mexico, but the MSCA has not sought and as far as I know has no plans to seek recognition in a conformation oriented registry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 But, it seems once people import these dogs, they want to be part of the machine, as it were. Perhaps the native registries should do more to educate potential/new owners about their existence, and why forging ahead for AKC recognition is not what it is cracked up to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 native registries should do more to educate potential/new owners about their existence, and why forging ahead for AKC recognition is not what it is cracked up to be. Sure. It depends on the breed. Some of them recognize the danger that the AKC poses. Some of them don't seem to care much. I believe the Spanish Water Dog (Perro D'Agua) folks are actively seeking first UKC recognition, with the ultimate goal of acceptance as an AKC breed. Some breeds are neutral - they neither long for acceptance nor have any active objection to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbm618 Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 Ok, I'm not sure if it's just a video distortion or maybe just my failure to accurately judge size in videos, but do these dogs look smaller than yours? I feel like if I put my Skip in the ring she'd be a couple of inches taller and maybe longer... and leaner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Ok, I'm not sure if it's just a video distortion or maybe just my failure to accurately judge size in videos, but do these dogs look smaller than yours? I feel like if I put my Skip in the ring she'd be a couple of inches taller and maybe longer... and leaner About size, show BCs I see around at AKC shows are not big but they're heavier looking. More bone mass and bigger/wider heads. Part of that, though is I'm sure the way they're groomed up to be. (fluff the legs would make them appear even heavier) I think that working BCs vary so much in size/look that its hard to really say that the show type is bigger or smaller. They're certainly more uniform looking. Of course I never really pay attention to the border collies at shows because show bred bcs aren't really my 'thing'. (we have toy dogs we do AKC with) The biggest BCs weight wise I see are the ones we get in the shelters. We've gotten some huge border collies through there. Maybe these people started out showing for fun - as in "something to do together with your dog". Maybe small shows are different, I have no idea what they're like. But at that level (Westminster) I see neither "fun" nor "together". If someone tried to hang my dog from one of those little nooses to make sure she didn't move when strangers poked around her privates, they'd have to get past me first. Nah, Westminster's really not a good representation of average dog showing. Too stuffy. lol! Small shows are quite a bit more relaxed. I really don't get the campaigning your dog around the country with a handler thing, either for ranking points. um... sorry, my dog is my pet and I don't want him gone for a long time. I know plenty show people that have dogs they haven't seen but once or twice in the past two years. If my dog competes in anything, I want to be able to do it with my dog. (Unless of course I'm on a bum leg and can't right now ) What's the point of owning a dog you never see and you can never enjoy? What's the point of having a dog that prefers his handler to his owner? I still don't get that. That's the main problem with showing right there- people get so caught up in winning, the concern and well-being of the dogs (and breeds!) can be forgotten. I've had to deal with some of them regarding Rose and everything she went through in the name of 'showing'. Yeah.... long story and it still makes me angry. Oh and so I'm addressing the OP, you see some horrid fashion and just plain WEIRD shoes in the conformation ring. The general consensus is to go for what's comfortable. Of course you see less dressy clothes in small shows and UKC showing than you would Westminster. Anyways, it's always interesting trying to go from a breed where the ONLY good breeders are conformation breeders (papillons) to one where (imo) the conformation breeders hit way off the mark. If you try to find a 'non conformation' breeder of papillons you end up with the 'zomg, cute little fluffy puppies!' puppy mill bandwagon breeders catering to the Paris Hilton type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 This might be a little off the subject. But we run a wildlife rehab as well as raise sheep, we have two border collies. One day some people came out to tour the sanctuary and see the non-releasable wolves. One woman in the group raises german shepherds. An intern was giving the tour and I over heard the woman say, "That wolf has very poor conformation, why is he built like that?" My astonished Intern took a second to figure this out, then replied, "Because in the wild if he wasn't built like this, he would die." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 My astonished Intern took a second to figure this out, then replied,"Because in the wild if he wasn't built like this, he would die." Coming soon to a conformation ring near you: Kennel Club "improved" wolves and other wild canids. Welcome, Tea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 ^^ J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Thank you for the welcome. I think the woman who commented on the wolf was referring to the narrow, knock kneed build of wolves. (It is for snow travel.) She showed me a photo of her german shepherds. and the odd thing, I am not kidding you on this, is the hind quarters were ALOT lower than the front end. I asked her why the dogs were like that. She told me it made them more agile. I then asked what her dogs did for a living. (Figuring it was some agility thing.) She looked at me funny, and said nothing. My intern, who was warming up on this subject said, "But if that were true about the dogs hindquarters then the wolves would be built like that. But they are balanced level between forehand and hindquarters." I gave up and told them to have a nice visit. I am missing something out here I guess. Doesn't a dog, in some ways like a wolf, prove its conformation value by doing its work well? And staying sound? Great group by the way! www.wolftown.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Welcome! Doesn't a dog, in some ways like a wolf, prove its conformation value by doing its work well? And staying sound? You seem to understand what the show ring crowd cannot (or will not) understand. There is a big component of the divide between the working-bred dog and the show-bred dog, the choice between breeding for sound functionality and breeding for arbitrary appearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Sue, don't forget the ones breeding for "versatility" ... for dogs that can "do it all" ... (aka "jackes-of-all-trades, master-of-none") Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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