Lyric Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Hi all, I'm normally just a dedicated lurker but I'd like to get some opinions from those of you with experience formulating raw diets. I have a 17 month old BC whom I adopted from BCRNC when she was 8wks old. She has always been fed high quality kibble (NB, Solid Gold BATM, Evo) but after reading many posts here and articles on commercial pet food I started introducing some basic raw meals as part of her diet. Recently I ran across this website http://www.boneappetitrawfood.com/ and I decided to try going completely raw, rotating through their various "meal deals" which are chicken based but contain an "other" meat source- duck, rabbit, lamb, beef, turkey, or pork. So far she seems to be doing very well with this diet. Her coat is noticeably softer and there has been a definite improvement in her chronic itchiness which was not helped by allergy formula foods, 3 different kinds of allergy medication, or prednisone. Stools are good, small and no constipation or excessive softness. Oh, and she has way more energy than any single dog has a right to. The truth is I really like the convenience of feeding prepared meals since it eliminates the guesswork on my part, but I was wondering what your thoughts were on how balanced these formulas are for long term feeding? Should I be adding anything on either a daily or occasional basis? At the moment I do give her a little plain yogurt, 2 tsp camelina oil, and a scoop of ShowStopper ( http://www.an-nat.com/endurancebooster_showstop.html# ) daily. I also mix in a raw egg once or twice a week. So- opinions, suggestions, criticisms? I truly want to feed her the best diet I can and I'd love any and all input from those who have done this before. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Personally I think that buying something like that is defeating the whole purpose of feeding a diet similar to that which nature intended. While it isn't dry food, it is still something that is commercially produced. Do you feed any bones? That should be an important part of the diet. Simply having ground up bone isn't good enough IMO. Actually chewing on the bones is great for the teeth and jaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Yes, I do provide recreational bones as well. I understand that ground meat/bones is something of a compromise however at the moment it's what I'm comfortable with as the bulk of her diet. I ran into some problems with her not properly chewing even soft bones (necks, wings) that make me uncomfortable giving her anything but ground as a consumable for now. Aside from the fact that it's ground, does it seem to be nutritionaly balanced as a long term diet? Here's the page that lists the actual contents if that helps. http://www.boneappetitrawfood.com/products.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 They are actually not supposed to "chew" the edible bones - just crunch enough to swallow. Their stomachs take care of the rest. That's why you have to transition reeeeealllly slowly most of the time. The exception of course would be behaviors that actually are dangerous like gulping large chunks without crunching, or a tendency to get stuff "stuck." Raw Dog Ranch is my favorite site to outline clearly the rough balance that needs to occur to ensure that major nutrients are supplied over the long term. I wouldn't worry too much about feeding the commercial product if it meets your goals. I would imagine if you are as food "nerdy" as some of the rest of us, you will change to something new long before any very small inbalances become big problems. There are tons of commercial raw foods so if you are concerned about balance you can research more of those and rotate them. Nature's Variety has a very highly respected line of foods - it's one of my favorite because the veggie/bone content is actually around 10% versus the 25% or even 35% that some of the rest offer. It's impossible to know the meat content percentage unless you e-mail the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbirdie Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I have followed a plan outlined by several people at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/. My foster dogs are still in the initial phase of raw, the point where they get chicken only. My perma-dogs have eaten chicken, rabbit, fish, pork, guinea hen, and beef. I tried them on duck and they aren't thrilled enough with it to make it permanent. Noone has actually done any studies comparing dogs fed kibble against raw-fed dogs. No studies have been done comparing dogs fed multiple sources of protein against dogs that got just chicken. No studies have been done to compare dogs fed a commercial diet like Nature's Variety against dogs given chunks of meat with bone inside. I know when I have watched my dogs' teeth improve and their breath turned sweeter, I know watching them crunch raw bones, that they are much happier than when, last year, I fed them the Nature's Variety patties. I think there is some kind of primal enjoyment for them in having the kind of meal a wolf might have eaten. Do I think feeding only one protein source will lead to deficiencies? Yes. But who knows what the right variety would be. Every so-called dog nutritionist seems to have different ideas but look at how often we are advised that something that the "experts" thought was good is actually bad, or vice versa. I love the term "food nerdy" Rebecca. It is descriptive of how we become once we start. Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Pre-made raw foods defeat the entire purpose of raw feeding. The meat is from places you don't know, it's made with binders to keep it together, it's in a patty thats easy to chew, and it's pretty much the equivalent of feeding a quality canned food. Necks and wings are terrific to feed. We've been feeding our 2 y/o chi X chicken wings and necks, and he's never choked or got GI damage. Same goes for the big guys. We usually give them turkey necks and wings for size, but if the store runs out, I take a bunch of necks or wings and freeze them together (run them in cold water, then freeze) and serve frozen so it minimizes the choking hazard. Rec bones, IMO, should not be given to a dog. They're weight bearing bones that are not edible, and all the do is break teeth. Joy gets marrow bones, but she doesn't chew them. If she starts chewing them they get taken away. The ONLY kind of rec bone I give to my dog is beef neck, because their is a good amount of meat for her to chew on, and the bones aren't ridiculously huge. We had a nine year old malinois who had all of her teeth broken between 9 years of schutzund and rec bone chewing. Unfortunately, we lost her to cancer. Here are my issues with this food: CHICKEN MEAL DEAL Consists of 100% chicken backs, vegetable gruel, lamb kidney, beef heart; fresh fish organic kelp, alfalfa, and organic vinegar. The ratio is approximately 79% chicken backs, 9% vegetable gruel, 8% offal, 3% fish and 1% alfalfa/kelp & vinegar. This is our most popular product. It is a well-balanced staple meal that matches very well with feeding alternative meals of Meal Deal w/Pork, Beef, Lamb, Duck or Turkey for variety. chicken backs don't have a lot of meat. Dogs don't need that much veggies, and they don't say what kind. just GRUEL. Kidneys and hearts are fantastic, but that's too much kidney. A 70 pound dog should get 4 kidneys every month. IMO, Alfafa isn't good for dogs, it's a cheap filler. CHICKEN MEAL DEAL WITH PORK, BEEF, LAMB, DUCK OR TURKEY Consists of 100% chicken backs, vegetable gruel, lamb kidney, beef heart; fresh fish, organic kelp, alfalfa, and organic vinegar. The other meats consist of BEEF (beef chuck), PORK (pork shoulder roasts), LAMB (leg of lamb), DUCK (whole Peking duck), and TURKEY (turkey necks). The ratio is approximately 66% chicken backs, 13% other meat (beef, pork, lamb, duck or turkey), 9% vegetables, 8% offal, 3% fish and 1% alfalfa/kelp & vinegar. This meal gives the dogs a variety of meat flavors and protein, but not enough to throw the body into any change. see above TURKEY MEAL DEAL Consists of 100% turkey necks, vegetable gruel, lamb kidney, beef heart; fresh fish, organic kelp, alfalfa, and organic vinegar. The ratio is approximately 79% turkey necks, 9% vegetable gruel, 8% offal, 3% fish and 1% alfalfa/kelp & vinegar. This meal is designed for the obese dog. This meal allows you to feed an appropriate amount of food, but cuts the fat content. It's also great for dogs that have joint problems as turkey necks are a natural source of glucosamine. This meal is usually fed on a temporary basis, then it is switched to the 50/50 for a time, and then finally transitioned to the Chicken Meal Deal. the turkey necks are good, but don't have enough meat on them to make up a consisent diet 50/50 MEAL DEAL Consists of turkey necks, chicken backs, chicken gizzards or wings, vegetable gruel, lamb kidney, beef heart; fresh fish, organic kelp, alfalfa, and organic vinegar. The ratio is approximately 40% turkey necks, 26% chicken backs, 13% chicken wings or chicken gizzards, 9% vegetables, 8% offal, 3% fish and 1% alfalfa/kelp & vinegar. This meal is designed for the dog that has some weight issues along with joint stiffness. PREMIUM VEGGIE MEAL This new product has all of the great ingredients as our other products, but we have doubled the vegetable gruel. This meal is for the dog that needs the nutrients from the vegetables mixed with a lower fat content. Consists of 100% chicken backs, vegetable gruel, lamb kidney, beef heart; fresh fish, organic kelp, alfalfa, and organic vinegar. The ratio is approximately 69% chicken backs, 19% vegetable gruel, 11% offal and 1% organic alfalfa/kelp and vinegar. dogs aren't vegetarians, so whats the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Yeah its much more fun and cheep just to DIY Cos Ben is small I just shop at the supermarket for him - real easy - whatever cuts are cheeper than the kibble he was on THe place I go to gives us salmon heads and trimmings, lamb bones, hearts, livers and kidneys, tail necks and ribs (of several animals) all nice and cheep So basically I give him something with bones (and lots of meat on) some extra meat and some innerds. whole fish some days and eggs every so often not a food nerd - I just feed the dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Fun -- that's it. Imagine what fun you'll have when you start to seriously investigate road kill for freshness and cause of death! I picked up two deer this winter so far. One turned out to have exploded internally, so I didn't dare feed it. The other was a hide and about 20 pounds of meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Alfafa isn't good for dogs, it's a cheap filler. I'm curious about this statement. How did you come to that conclusion? To the OP- That food looks like something that I wouldn't have a problem with feeding on occassion. Personally I wouldn't feed it as more than 50% of my dogs diet and then I'd be adding in more meat/variety as most of the formulas do seem to have a bit more bone than I'd like to feed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Well, that's actually just my opinion (I have to edit that, because I didn't state it). Yes, it can be a good joint supplement, but MANY dogs are allergic to it, and for a dog to properly digest it to fully benefit the nutrients, the alfalfa has to be ground up, and/or cooked, since a dogs basic physiology says that they can't digest plant or vegetable matter. Sure, it gets mushed up in their tummies, but the nutrients aren't absorbed. The same reason why we can't process raw meat the same way dogs do. To me, if you're dog has crappy joints, they can put something else in the food (like shark cartilage) for glucosamine. It's just as 'natural' and can be better processed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 They are actually not supposed to "chew" the edible bones - just crunch enough to swallow. Their stomachs take care of the rest. That's why you have to transition reeeeealllly slowly most of the time. The exception of course would be behaviors that actually are dangerous like gulping large chunks without crunching, or a tendency to get stuff "stuck." This is indeed the problem. If she gets the least bit distracted while eating, even in her crate, her solution is to gulp down anything left in her bowl as fast as possible so she can direct her attention elsewhere. The second time I saw my 28lb dog swallow a turkey neck virtually whole was when I decided to stick with ground bone only until she learns better "table manners", which we are working on. Thank you for the link and the suggestion of Nature's Variety as a good quality prepared raw. I think I will try both rotating prepared formulas as well as preparing more things myself as I learn how to balance various elements correctly. Pre-made raw foods defeat the entire purpose of raw feeding. The meat is from places you don't know, it's made with binders to keep it together, it's in a patty thats easy to chew, and it's pretty much the equivalent of feeding a quality canned food. One of the reasons I decided to try this particular pre-made food was a telephone conversation I had with the owner regarding the ingredients. Per that conversation as well as the webpage he uses only USDA inspected human grade meat and organs, and organic fruits and vegetables. (The vegetables included in the gruel are listed on the main page.) I didn't ask about binders but the food certainly doesn't stick together. It comes in 2lb frozen tubes and crumbles apart as soon as it's defrosted. I do feel that despite the texture similarity to canned food, the live enzymes present in any raw food provide benefits that I cannot get from even the highest quality canned. That food looks like something that I wouldn't have a problem with feeding on occassion. Personally I wouldn't feed it as more than 50% of my dogs diet and then I'd be adding in more meat/variety as most of the formulas do seem to have a bit more bone than I'd like to feed. This was one of the things I was concerned about. What types of meat do you think I should be adding if I continue to use it as a base? Thank you for all the suggestions, I think I'll continue to feed it as at least a part of her diet but it looks like I need to do some more research in order to really give her everything she needs. If anyone has some basic suggestions for additions I can make that would be safe for a grab-and-gulp sort of dog I would welcome ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Have you tried feeding bones frozen? I always feed frozen bones as it teaches them to eat bones properly and stops them from gulping large pieces- its just too cold. I can feed mine thawed bones now and be confident that they wont gulp but Im too lazy to get them out of the freezer in time The other issue I have with something like that is that the dogs stomach does not have enough time to ready itself for the incoming meal. Digestive enzymes begin preparing the stomach for the food but anything minced arrives too quickly. Food that they have to actually gnaw and pull at is much better for them. Although freezing is another way to combat this I feed all my dogs food frozen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 No, I hadn't thought of feeding them frozen. I'll give it a try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Have you tried feeding bones frozen? I always feed frozen bones as it teaches them to eat bones properly and stops them from gulping large pieces- its just too cold. I can feed mine thawed bones now and be confident that they wont gulp but Im too lazy to get them out of the freezer in time The other issue I have with something like that is that the dogs stomach does not have enough time to ready itself for the incoming meal. Digestive enzymes begin preparing the stomach for the food but anything minced arrives too quickly. Food that they have to actually gnaw and pull at is much better for them. Although freezing is another way to combat this I feed all my dogs food frozen... Good post - Mine get a lot of their RMB's frozen, as well. Both from "laziness" and it keeps them chewing and happy longer. I also agree that the chewing sets the digestive system up better. If I were feeding a prepared food like that (and occasionally I feed Bravo ground), I'd slice it and feed it semi-frozen, as well. I'd probably offer a smallish frozen RMB (like a turkey, pork or veal neck) along with the ground food. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepandakom Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I know the raw food purists would tell me I'm wrong, but when I buy something large like a pork shoulder or butt, I grind it up and freeze it in approximately half pound balls. It makes feeding so much easier and I don't have to plan my meals 3 or 4 days ahead or take up fridge space with a thawing pork shoulder. The dogs love their pork popsicles and it keeps them occupied for at least a little while. They are also a wonderful addition to something like a pork neckbone or anything else I think is too bony. If I cut the pork off the bone or feed the ground when it has thawed, the dogs gulp and are finished way too quickly. I got a bunch of pork for 35 and 25 cents a pound that I need to thaw and grind. I also feed whole chickens semi frozen. I let them thaw for a few hours and then quarter them and feed the doggies. As long as the giblets aren't wrapped in plastic, they stay within the frozen cavity. I'm going through almost 10 pounds of meat a day now, so I've got to have an easy way to feed. I went to Kroger last night and they have "natural" chickens for $.49 lb all week. I'm going to go back and fill my cart and freezer. They already think I'm crazy there. In response to the food the OP listed, I would be concerned that it has too much bone because it looks like it's mostly chicken backs. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney's Girl Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 A solution to the gulping can be solved by feeding bigger pieces. Tucker is a big time gulper. I really only feed him large pieces of meat. He is about 50 pounds and when he needs to get RMBs I put a whole chicken in front of him and he happily chews his food. Once the carcass gets too small and in the size range of him to gulp it, I take it away and feed it to Chesney who is much more of a chewer and takes his time. Also if Tucker is eating and crunches a couple of times and and swallows it without a problem I don't worry about it. Dogs really don't need to chew their food as much as we do, they simple need to chew to get it small enough to fit down the throat, and I have seen him chew twice and swallow. Sometimes it makes it down sometimes he needs to try at it again and usually just horks it back up to have another go at it... I think for a 28 pound dog a turkey neck is too small especially if the dog is not a careful chewer. My rule of thumb is the dog can't swallow something as big as its head. As far as what my guys eat, they eat whole objects. No ground products, I don't have the means to grind them nor the patients or time . Whatever I can find for a reasonable price. 99% of the stuff we get is from the Co-op in Southern California which sells most of the stuff for far cheaper than you can get at the grocery stores. Also the premade raw foods tend to have WAY more bone in them than is needed. If you wanted to feed that for their bone portion of the meal thats fine, but then it kind of defeats the teeth cleaning purpose and physical enjoyment of the dog crunching the meaty bones... Just my .02. I guess I'm just a lazy raw feeder that thinks preparing the food is making meal sized baggies and then simply taking it out and putting it in front of the dogs. Oh... And I only supplement with Ultra Oil daily since I don't find fish very easily and the canned stuff I only get once in a while and I can't afford to feed grass raised meats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 First, I think it's great that you've started feeding raw in any form. Your comfort level with this is, well yours, and if ground raw lets you feel "ok" to try this...I'm all for it! I like to get people to start with commercial raw like that, then help them branch out to more DIY food sources as they feel comfortable and the dog learns to process the raw food. I also suggest not to stick to one brand of prepackaged raw because just as doing that with kibble...you can be "off" on some nutrients for your dog even if the food meet AAFCO standards. For example Food A may be high in X and the low in Z....but both meeting basic standards If fed for a lifetime you could have a problem because of these imbalances. By changing brands every few months at least you give you dog a variety within "standard" and hopefully better meet it's needs for a lifetime. Most food trials are only for a few months, maybe a year....so you cannot depend on "standards" to feed you dog exclusivly for a lifetime. You can't really compare frozen raw to canned - after all canned is cooked! That's like comparing canned soup to a frozen beef patty. Not the same And for the alfalfa versus shark cartilage debate. I have seen dogs eat alfalfa by choice, but I've never met a wild dog who went shark fishing..... Do Yellowstone wolves do that on vacation? I've fed raw since 1998 now, and changed over hundreds of dogs now - by helping friends, my own dogs, and rescues. It's a good diet for 95% of dogs if the owner can do it. Unfortunately many owners just can't, or won't. Fear of broken teeth is one reason, sometimes just life issues. Prepacked ground raw is a good option for many homes, as long as they don't depend on one brand/one type for life, and be sure you include appropriate supplements for each *indivudual) dog such as fish oil, Vit C, etc. I question the use of "show stopper". I've seen then, and it looks like the canine equivilent of a "bloom" supplement for show horses - to give the extra shine, "umph" of energy. This is not always a good thing, and can cause hyperactivity and other issues. I would stop using it for several weeks and see if you see change in behavior. It is likely you don't need it in a healthy young BC. Gulping is relatively normal for some dogs, and sometimes just a process of getting used to having such good food. Frozen is a good way to slow them down, as well as giving the bones after they've sated their appetite on meat/veggies/organs and are a little less "desperate" for the good stuff. 2 meals a day are also helpful in a new raw feeder - keeps the edge off somewhat as they adjust to less empty carb in the diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbernard2424 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Fun -- that's it. Imagine what fun you'll have when you start to seriously investigate road kill for freshness and cause of death! I picked up two deer this winter so far. One turned out to have exploded internally, so I didn't dare feed it. The other was a hide and about 20 pounds of meat. Bill, Your post reminds me of the times I used to drive around country roads looking for road kill. One day I found a good-sized deer on the side of the road and was attempting to load it into my Ford Escort Wagon. It was a good 100+ pound deer and I was having a hard time getting it in the car. Imagine my surprise when a guy who was driving by pulled over and helped me put it my car! He said he thought it had fallen out of my car. Only in the South would someone stop and help you stuff a dead deer back in your car! Rarely will I pick up road kill these days because I get a large supply of nicely packaged venison scraps during hunting season. I think I might be missing out on fun though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbernard2424 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Hi all, I'm normally just a dedicated lurker but I'd like to get some opinions from those of you with experience formulating raw diets. I have a 17 month old BC whom I adopted from BCRNC when she was 8wks old. She has always been fed high quality kibble (NB, Solid Gold BATM, Evo) but after reading many posts here and articles on commercial pet food I started introducing some basic raw meals as part of her diet. Recently I ran across this website http://www.boneappetitrawfood.com/ and I decided to try going Hmmmmm, a raw dog food company that lists the vegetable ingredients first on the home page. Not a good sign. Meat should be the most important ingredient, not vegetables. I agree with Haleigh's comments on the ingredients. In addition, grinding and subsequently freezing meat makes it loose some of its nutritional benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbernard2424 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Lyric, I generally don't recommend commercially prepared raw dog food, but I stumbled upon this company: http://www.darwinspet.com/index.html The ingredients are better than the company you originally posted. I have no interest in this company, just happened to stumble upon it. Here are the ingredients for their chicken meal: Free- Range Meat (70%): Chicken, Ground Chicken Bone, Chicken Liver, Chicken Hearts Organic Vegetables (30%): Carrots, Squash, Yams, Zucchini, Cabbage, Celery, Kale, Romaine, Apple Cider Vinegar. I like that they are using all chicken. I don't like the "franken-prey" approach that some companies take by adding several different kinds of meat to one meal. I do not think dogs need vegetables in their meals, especially not every meal, but it's hard to find a raw food company that doesn't add vegetables. All the best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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