laurie etc Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 A friend's 8 month old Border Collie pup has started shadow chasing. This pup is a dream in every other way. Even though my friend has tried "redirection", crating, and keeping him on a leash to curtail it, his obsession is getting worse. It seems to escalate when he is excited/stimulated (not when he is bored), so she has been working on enforcing and rewarding him for "chilling out". He is working bred, and none of his close relatives exhibit this sort of OC behavior. He gets lots of exercise, play and daily mental training. He is not a "bored pup" left to his own devices, as seems to be the "norm" for dogs with this kind of behavior. Any advise is appreciated regarding things she can try to nip this in the bud, and/or links to recent data about this issue. I tried searching this forum and googling, but didn't come up with much. I usually try to think of positive ways to shape/modify behavior, but for something so self gratifying, I thought of using a water pistol or shaker can as an aversive. Any other ideas? Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 A friend's 8 month old Border Collie pup has started shadow chasing. This pup is a dream in every other way. Even though my friend has tried "redirection", crating, and keeping him on a leash to curtail it, his obsession is getting worse. It seems to escalate when he is excited/stimulated (not when he is bored), so she has been working on enforcing and rewarding him for "chilling out". He is working bred, and none of his close relatives exhibit this sort of OC behavior. He gets lots of exercise, play and daily mental training. He is not a "bored pup" left to his own devices, as seems to be the "norm" for dogs with this kind of behavior. Any advise is appreciated regarding things she can try to nip this in the bud, and/or links to recent data about this issue. I tried searching this forum and googling, but didn't come up with much. I usually try to think of positive ways to shape/modify behavior, but for something so self gratifying, I thought of using a water pistol or shaker can as an aversive. Any other ideas? Laurie I've never dealt with such serious OCD behaviors as you describe. I would be doing what your friend has tried. How long as she been working on this issue with the dog? The only thing I can think to suggest is systematic desensitization where she would very, very gradually move him towards exciting situations where he starts to exhibit this behavior. I'm thinking of Susan Garrett in Shaping Success where she'd work with Buzz to get him calm and under control, sometimes in very small steps towards whatever was setting him off. Is it possible your friend is trying to reinforce "chilling out," when he is already over threshold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 How long as she been working on this issue with the dog? ... Is it possible your friend is trying to reinforce "chilling out," when he is already over threshold? It started about 2 months ago - basically, he noticed his own shadow (I think) and went after it. He was never reinforced for this, as in "isn't that cute?!". My friend recognized it as a behavior she didn't want to perpetuate, so has been managing the pup to avoid the shadow issues (keeping him on leash when there are shadows, redirecting him to other activities if he looks at them, crating when he can't be watched so he doesn't "find" shadows on his own). The pup does not live near me, so I haven't actually seen him doing it, but apparently it is getting worse and he is looking for shadows more and more. Seems to be a self gratification kind of thing, you know, like how some dogs amuse themselves by playing with/tossing toys in the air. He naturally has a good off button, and relaxes readily, but if he's loose he now wants to go find a shadow to entertain himself. This wouldn't be so bad (I guess) except my friend says shadows are now starting to distract him when he is in "training mode" and this new development has her worried. Up until now, he has been very focused during training sessions (he is doing puppy level training for agility, obedience, disc dog - and will be learning to work sheep eventually). I don't think she is reading him wrong, but is pretty concerned about this becoming an OC behavior that goes out of control. She is aware of the SG methods, I'll suggest she look into reading that book if she hasn't already. One agility trainer she went to suggested she "put the shadow chasing on cue" (so that it would extinguish when not cued) but I have a feeling that this is not the kind of behavior that will work that way. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 One agility trainer she went to suggested she "put the shadow chasing on cue" (so that it would extinguish when not cued) but I have a feeling that this is not the kind of behavior that will work that way. Sounds a lot like the advice to put barking on cue to quiet a recreational barker. That advice always drove me nuts with my barkaholic Shelties and I wondered if anyone had ever really used the technique with success on a true problem barker. Positive reinforcement, training alternative behaviors and time outs did the trick for me. But what you are describing is more complicated than a simple self-rewarding behavior like barking. I'm at a loss. I'd hate to suggest medication for such a young dog. Before I went that route, I'd take the dog to a holistic vet or good behaviorist to see if there was some other way to address the behavior. And none of the dog's close relatives are showing similar behaviors? Hmm. It's a puzzler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I think this is something best addressed by a board-certified behaviorist. I agree with Liz that's it's probably too complicated a behavior for the owner to solve on her own. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I think this is something best addressed by a board-certified behaviorist. I agree with Liz that's it's probably too complicated a behavior for the owner to solve on her own. J. I did suggest that to her, but I thought maybe some folks here might have some personal insight into it. I don't think it is an uncommon problem in Border Collies, since when I google "shadow chasing" I come up with a slew of Border Collie related sites. Interestingly, there are also a lot of you tube videos of human infants and small children chasing shadows...hmmm...I guess humans grow out of it; but it's interesting that we find it "normal" in developing humans, but a problem behavior in dogs. I don't think my friend wants to medicate this pup, but she wants to find a way to curb the behavior so that he can be a useful dog, and chasing shadows doesn't take over his life. (And don't worry, he's slated to be neutered when his growth plated close.) I heard once that there's a very prominent USBCHA finals dog who chases shadows in his spare time. If that's true, then maybe it's not really a big deal (since obviously at least THAT Border Collie can separate "work" from this mindless pastime). Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't think my friend wants to medicate this pup, but she wants to find a way to curb the behavior so that he can be a useful dog, and chasing shadows doesn't take over his life. ( Laurie, Not all behaviorists use medication and I think if your friend stated her reasons for not wanting to resort to meds a good behaviorist would try to work within those parameters. At any rate, most behaviorists wouldn't just medicate for the sake of medicating--I think they'd use medication to help break the cycle while also using behavior modification techniques so that there would be a greater chance of success. The thing that worries me about shadows or reflections is that it's next to impossible to remove the stimulus. With my dog who circles endlessly, I can either tie him or contain him and he can't circle. But those kinds of solutions won't work here (as you already know). I don't think I'd use an example if an open trial dog who chases shadows as a reason to ignore the problem--I expect that the dog you mention is an exception rather than the rule (that is I wouldn't do nothing in hopes that I'd get lucky and my dog would learn to separate obsession from work). Anyway, since I have no personal experience with shadow chasing, I'll stop responding. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Laurie,Not all behaviorists use medication and I think if your friend stated her reasons for not wanting to resort to meds a good behaviorist would try to work within those parameters. At any rate, most behaviorists wouldn't just medicate for the sake of medicating--I think they'd use medication to help break the cycle while also using behavior modification techniques so that there would be a greater chance of success. The thing that worries me about shadows or reflections is that it's next to impossible to remove the stimulus. With my dog who circles endlessly, I can either tie him or contain him and he can't circle. J. Julie - Thanks, I agree with what you're saying and appreciate the response. My friend is in NYC, so maybe there's a behaviorist in her area who can work with her. Anyone know one to recommend? Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't think it is an uncommon problem in Border Collies, since when I google "shadow chasing" I come up with a slew of Border Collie related sites. Interestingly, there are also a lot of you tube videos of human infants and small children chasing shadows...hmmm...I guess humans grow out of it; but it's interesting that we find it "normal" in developing humans, but a problem behavior in dogs I probably should shut my pie hole since I'm not familiar with shadow chasing to the extent you describe in this dog. Quinn showed some interest in shadows a couple of times when he was a teen, but I was able to easily distract him and the behavior never took root. However, I've been working in mental health for over 20 years, (the last 17 of those at community clinic where we see everything), and not once have I heard of a parent expressing concern about their baby or small child chasing shadows. I do think babies watch sunlight and shadows and try to figure them out ("Can I grab it?") but then move on to other things to explore in their world. If the child didn't, I'd be concerned. The problem with your friend's dog is he is not figuring out what the shadows are and he is increasing his chasing behaviors to the point of seeking them out. Back to human infants. They may notice shadows. Adults notice shadows. But they don't tend to go in search of shadows. Watching and chasing shadows doesn't become a favorite past-time. This may just be a game to him, but if that was the case the behavior should be fading given your friend's interventions. Instead, she is increasingly concerned by it and finding it is disrupting his performance when training him. This is not normal and I would not count on it being something he grows out of. As far as being "not uncommon" in Border Collies, unfortunately, a fair number of problem behaviors are not uncommon in these dogs. This can be due to poor breeding, the environment or a combination of both. But it doesn't mean the behaviors are not problems. And certainly I don't think they're something that should be considered normal or to be expected. A whole host of health and temperament issues are not uncommon in German Shepherds, but they're still problems and the breed is suffering for it. So, not being an expert in abnormal dog behavior, I'll go out on a limb and say something is not right with this youngster. I think your friend would be wise to seek professional help for him asap. Now, like Julie, I will bow out and wish the dog and his owner the best. Hopefully, she can pull him out of this. Please let us know if there are any updates. ETA: We cross posted and I just noticed that you say your friend in in the NYC area. I don't know a behaviorist to recommend, but I'd think that location would have at least one or two excellent people to work with. Now for real, I will shut my pie hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Chittenden Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 What is this dog's daily routine? Time up, time outside, time in crate etc.? Aerobic exercise outlets, how long, how many times a day? Training time, how long, how many times daily or weekly? My Tristan was a very obsessive shadow chaser when he first came into rescue at two years of age. Also sunspots and carpet patterns could get him going. We ended up just having squeaky balls in every room of the house. When we heard him begin to dig at the shadows we'd engage him in a game of fetch instead. After months of doing this and wondering if it was ever going to work I heard him digging shadows in the kitchen. I was in the bedroom and unable to get to the kitchen right away so didn't intervene. A few moments later I heard 'squeak, squeak' and he had found his own squeaky ball to divert himself! So instead of a shadow obsessed boy I now have a toy obsessed boy but I'll take that over the shadows. He is an "over the top" kind of dog to begin with. Absolutely needs his three good exercise sessions daily or his behavior unravels in other places, displacing on other dogs in the household, etc. I do agility but he is too difficult for me, he can't just do a tunnel, has to blast through at the sound of light and then bite me because I'm just not fast enough! And also his attention span is not the greatest, 3-5 minutes is about all I get out of him. Friends who know him have likened him to an autistic child in many ways. He has handling/brushing issues and also some mild resource guarding. never escalates to biting though and he plays the exchange game very nicely. Drugs were offered but we chose to try the "play with a different thing" with him and it seems to have worked. We call him our "special" child. We actually placed him twice as we were only his foster home but each time he was sent back, his behaviors came back full blown in each new household and the new families couldn't live with him like that. So, while his shadow chasing is definitely better, he is still not quite 100% - but we love him anyway:) Probably not a whole lot of help but this is our experience with shadow chasing! Good luck to your friend! Another thing to try would be the Tufts Petfax (google it and it will come up) to see what they say if there is not a local behaviorist. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 What is this dog's daily routine? Time up, time outside, time in crate etc.? Aerobic exercise outlets, how long, how many times a day? Training time, how long, how many times daily or weekly? Probably not a whole lot of help but this is our experience with shadow chasing! Good luck to your friend! Another thing to try would be the Tufts Petfax (google it and it will come up) to see what they say if there is not a local behaviorist. Kathy Thanks Kathy and Liz! I'm not sure of his exact routine, but I know he gets lots of one-on-one training, leash walking and casual play time, too. I think my friend is on the right track - with the redirection activities, and crating with a chew bone when she can't be there to watch him. In searching through sheepdog-l and a few other sources, it seems this commonly starts around 6 -8 months, when a Border Collie pup might "turn on" to herding stock, and maybe this behavior is a redirection of that energy. Another person on sheepdog-l mentioned some research that had shown a correlation between OC behavior and the rabies vaccine. So, lots of things for my friend to check into and think about. Maybe she should consult a holistic vet if she has recently rabies vaccinated him, and I'll tell her about the Tufts Petfax. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Laurie, I think this is the site Melanie recommends: American College of Veterinary Behaviorists diplomate list. The list is alphabetical, but it looks like you can search by state (and it's not a long list anyway). I see only one person from NY (Ithaca), but perhaps that person can make a referral. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I had this issue with Joy. Anything reflective she would chase. Same with shadows, and she would stare at the TV while I played guitar hero...I just kept a leash on her. When she would do her OC behaviors, I clapped, led her away from what she was doing, and distracted her with something. Usually, I would make her down, twist, crawl and watch me. If she continued, I would crate her with a blanket over it for a few minutes. Not for a time out, but rather as a distraction for her to 'forget' what she was doing. It worked well overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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