"Barbie Colles Can Herd, Really!"

[juliepoudrier]

I think if you consider that one person's stellar isn't necessarily another's then we probably are talking about more than just breeding only the absolute top (i.e. stellar) dogs. What I want and consider most important in a dog might not be what someone else wants and yet we could both be "right" as far as what's important (for example, perhaps we have different operations and the specific traits that are most important to my type of operation might not be what's most important to someone else's operation, so we choose our stellar more specifically for those particular traits, but at the same time we don't neglect *overall good working ability* while doing so). I think that's how we maintain diversity while still keeping the working-bred dogs as a whole to a pretty high standard.

 

J.

[mjk05]

I think that's how we maintain diversity while still keeping the working-bred dogs as a whole to a pretty high standard.

That's an extremely good point, and well said.

[Bo Peep]

Which of these 3 examples is likely to cause ongoing damage to the breed (kelpie or collie)?

 

I suppose in an unbalanced way all could be damaging, but to me it seems that the breeds were developed by the work of every day farmers, with trialling as a weekend activity for the best of them. Farming is changing and trialling is increasingly for people who keep sheep for dogs, not the other way around (although in the kelpie world and in my country that hasn't really happened yet), but if the breed is still produced for a combination of work and trials, with interchange between those purposes, it should be OK.

For me, what defines "working-bred" vs. "sports bred" vs. "show-bred" is the intent of the breeders- I think Katelynn said something similar. Someone who takes two dogs with mostly ISDS pedigrees and puts them together because they are fast/athletic-looking/cool colours/have successful sports relatives, then advertises them as "working-bred" is doing everyone a disservice, especially the breed.

 

Someone who is into agility gets themselves a working-bred dog, its pretty good at agility and has a bit of extra "cred" because its WKC (or ISDS) registered which enables them to hold their heads up high in discussions like this, and they take it to a few herding lessons, maybe even enter a trial or two, and the dog is pretty good, especially compared to the other pet or sports dogs they associate with. They decide to breed it, find another dog in their agility club that has the right working-breed registration, and bingo, "sports-bred" pups from 100% working-bred pedigrees. They probably will work, and since they'll probably be sold to other sports-type people it won't matter if they have a few serious faults, the pups aren't going to be shot or sold on or anything. But after a few generations of this sort of breeding, what is being produced?

 

Yes, it all comes down to "buyer beware", people should discuss their needs with the breeder and see the pups' parents work etc etc, but if we're talking about breeding that is detrimental or beneficial for the breed, and breeding that is most likely to retain the working ability of the breed, I think a large component is the intent, experience and circumstances of the breeders behind the dogs, as much as percentages in the pedigree.

 

As far as the OP, all applause to the dog and handler/trainer. I wish I were half as good. It must be awful being the subject of the sort of illogical rubbish on that blog.

I know what you're saying, stockdogranch, but I think good breeding is probably more than improving- it depends what you start with, doesn't it? There has to be an element of providing something that's needed, or continuing a valuable trait that isn't easily found elsewhere.

 

Bo Peep, I don't reckon you can judge any degree of working breeding by stuff like "tennis ball herding". I know some dogs that have loads of style working other dogs, or tennis balls etc, but nothing on sheep, and vice versa. Some of our better sheepdogs don't work anything except sheep. And bone and fluff and markings don't mean everything either. There are some great working dogs that have very classical markings, big coats, etc- which is how they can be incorporated into show breeding and blur the lines.

 

Re the politics- personally I'm pleased to see things getting discussed out in the open. The last time I participated in this sort of discussion I got some pretty unpleasant stuff via PM and email, despite the "very nice person" front being upheld on the public boards. Its the politics section- people who take every discussion of show/working/sports breeding as a personal attack against their own dog probably ought not to get involved.

[Bo Peep]

Yes, this is a common misconception by folks who don't work livestock.

 

Jodi

I have had MANY border collies in my life and yes, to some of this applies. BUT......when I see one dog go wide, tail down, and NOT really focusing on the object, yet the other dog, it proves to me that s/he would be good on stock. Now I have had my old 6 on stock. The one that went for the ball was the worst on stock. The one that "herded" the others, was the 2nd best, it's hard to tell. But I DO BELIEVE that you can tell by the motions of the dog, the lie down - the wide run for the ball, there ARE ways to tell. I am not judging this as "How to tell if your dog is good at herding" LOL. I just can tell a difference between a working dog and his difference to lie down at certain points and how they interact towards other dogs. I would NOT recommend this as a test, nor would I recommend someone that has not run in an open trial to judge an instinct test The dog that I appopted shows no instint on any sheepherding signs- I realize this as I have had many dogs that did. I will try her on sheep, but I imagine the results will be the same as my conclusions . JUST MY OPION. Feel free to PM me or discuss this in open, but I actually DO see a difference between well bred working dogs and playing and non-working dogs and playing. JMO.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I actually DO see a difference between well bred working dogs and playing and non-working dogs and playing. JMO.

 

I agree, I also see a difference.

[kelpiegirl]

Yep, me too Glad someone had the guts to pipe up before me Of course, it can be wrong You know, when Lucy, my db Kelpie was a wee pup, she and her litter mates were exposed to lots of honking geese, chooks, pigs, you name it. They were allowed up close and personal with everything but the pigs. I have video of the pups first laying down when they saw the fowl, and then on more than one occasion, I saw the pups get up, do a square take off, and come in around the group of geese- they were 9 weeks old. I also saw some very nice walk ups. If anyone wants to see some cute pups, let me know, I will put it up somewhere. Anyway, that litter turned out to be a bunch of crackers on stock, and two litter mates of Lucy's are working on cattle stations. When we have just the dogs playing, Lucy will always think first before she runs up to the others. She will always position herself in such a way that she can be at the head. My other two, naa- they don't have the tools in their box to herd, so they are pretty much straight up the middlers . All that said, I think that this is only to be used as anecdotal evidence, and clearly, if you want to work your dog seriously, the jury would still be out. It's sort of like hearing Johnny play the baby organ really well, with chopsticks as the tune, and then projecting he will be a musical phenom later...

[1sheepdoggal]

I have had MANY border collies in my life and yes, to some of this applies. BUT......when I see one dog go wide, tail down, and NOT really focusing on the object, yet the other dog, it proves to me that s/he would be good on stock. Now I have had my old 6 on stock. The one that went for the ball was the worst on stock. The one that "herded" the others, was the 2nd best, it's hard to tell. But I DO BELIEVE that you can tell by the motions of the dog, the lie down - the wide run for the ball, there ARE ways to tell. I am not judging this as "How to tell if your dog is good at herding" LOL. I just can tell a difference between a working dog and his difference to lie down at certain points and how they interact towards other dogs. I would NOT recommend this as a test, nor would I recommend someone that has not run in an open trial to judge an instinct test The dog that I appopted shows no instint on any sheepherding signs- I realize this as I have had many dogs that did. I will try her on sheep, but I imagine the results will be the same as my conclusions

 

Ive had a few myself, but I think what I see when talking about the same thing, isnt so much, or even the slightest indication of proof that a dog has any real talent to be a good, or even half way decent working dog, in so much that one simply is a Border Collie. Ive had collies that would work the piss out of their kennel mates, and do a darn good job of it, but put them in front of a few sheep, and they'd rather eat poo. My best working dog, wouldnt chase a ball if ya tied a steak to it, she totally ignors other dogs, always has, so there would be no way to see even, in how she intereacted with other dogs that she would be a good working dog, and she is 8 yrs now and a great little working dog and has been all her life. If the want to chase a ball, or how she worked another dog, or how she went about doing it, when she was younger, was any type of indication as to how she'd work, or that she'd ever work at all, she would have failed miserably, and no one would have ever seen what a truly talented and natural dog she is. I think the only way to tell if a dog is going to be a good dog on stock, is to put them on stock. Period. Its the only true test. Over the years, Ive seen, and bought to many as young dogs, that I saw these tendencies in them, thinking the same things, only to get them home, grow them up a bit, and they be sh*t dogs for working. They'd have all the right moves off stock, but nothing that impressed me once on stock. Its a hope when you seem that type of thing, but never would I draw any conclusions as to a dogs ability until they were on and accually "working" stock. Proof is in the pudding. No amount of ball chasing or dog herding can tell you anything about a collie, except that it is a Border Collie.

[juliepoudrier]

Darci,

I agree.

 

J.

[jdarling]

Proof is in the pudding. No amount of ball chasing or dog herding can tell you anything about a collie, except that it is a Border Collie.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

when I see one dog go wide, tail down, and NOT really focusing on the object, yet the other dog, it proves to me that s/he would be good on stock.

 

Yeah, ok.

 

Jodi

[kelpiegirl]

Or, a Kelpie

I couldn't agree more.

[Katelynn & Gang]

They'd have all the right moves off stock, but nothing that impressed me once on stock. Its a hope when you seem that type of thing, but never would I draw any conclusions as to a dogs ability until they were on and accually "working" stock. Proof is in the pudding. No amount of ball chasing or dog herding can tell you anything about a collie, except that it is a Border Collie.

 

I agree but when I've seen working bred dogs playing with non working bred dogs, there is always a huge difference in their movement and manner (when isn't there?). I don't believe it tells you if the dog has what it takes or not, just that something more is there, rather good or bad, then those dogs not bred for working. This isn't saying good sheepdogs have to herd other dogs or even would. It's also not saying not so good sheepdogs don't herd dogs, children or their owners because I truly believe there is a good number of those who do.

 

Everyone gets a kick out of watching my four play ball. Dice is the ball getter (and a very nice working dog BTW lol) who doesn't work anyone, Cue is her sheepdog, Rev is Cue's sheepdog and Trick is Rev's sheepdog. Dice will bring the ball to my feet and everyone will go to balance behind the other, right in order, from oldest to youngest and lay down (besides Trick, shes a fat little thing and has found out shes faster on her feet). Then there will be my sisters little rescue conformation bred dog bouncing off in space somewhere in lala land.

 

Maybe its just motion impulse or their high level of focus on movement. Either way, I wouldn't pick or not pick a dog because of it nor would I ever recommend someone else to do so.

[mbernard2424]

I agree but when I've seen working bred dogs playing with non working bred dogs, there is always a huge difference in their movement and manner (when isn't there?). I don't believe it tells you if the dog has what it takes or not, just that something more is there, rather good or bad, then those dogs not bred for working. This isn't saying good sheepdogs have to herd other dogs or even would. It's also not saying not so good sheepdogs don't herd dogs, children or their owners because I truly believe there is a good number of those who do.

 

In my humble opinion, I don't think you should allow a BC to herd other dogs or herd anything else without your permission or interaction. Too many bad habits can be learned if you let them "do their thing" on their own. I've seen very dog-bonded dogs who herd other dogs and ignore stock. Could that have been prevented if the dog was not allowed to herd other dogs from the start? Maybe.

[1sheepdoggal]

I agree but when I've seen working bred dogs playing with non working bred dogs, there is always a huge difference in their movement

 

If you agree, then why is there a "but?"....

 

Everyone gets a kick out of watching my four play ball

 

Back to the ball thing?

 

Dice will bring the ball to my feet and everyone will go to balance behind the other, right in order, from oldest to youngest and lay down

 

Its just a border collie being a border collie. Put those dogs to the test, not an AKC herding test, but an ISDS style novice course, and I think you may find most conformation dogs...lacking.

 

Then there will be my sisters little rescue conformation bred dog bouncing off in space somewhere in lala land

 

Ive had numerous working bred collies that while others are playing ball, are off in la la land. But when they are put to stock, all that changes.

[stockdogranch]

I agree with Darci and Julie P. A dog may MOVE like a BC, but anything other than putting it on stock doesn't tell you didly. I had a VERY well bred BC some years ago who worked the other dogs very nicely when at play. He worked stock for a short while, but just couldn't take the pressure *from the stock* (not me). He really just wasn't up to the task of being the least bit confrontational (even with the school sheep), and eventually just gave up. He went on to become the center of an elderly couple's life, travelling in the RV all over the states. getting groomed weekly, and just generally being doted on. Exactly where he was happiest. But to watch him work the other dogs--he was something special,

A

[Katelynn & Gang]

Its just a border collie being a border collie. Put those dogs to the test, not an AKC herding test, but an ISDS style novice course, and I think you may find most conformation dogs...lacking.

 

Whoa, just one minute there! Who ever said anything about a AKC test or conformation dogs not lacking? Are you suggesting my dogs are AKC bred and incapable of a ISDS style Novice course, let alone a ISDS style Open course?

 

I didn't say that good dogs do or don't work other dogs. I just said that there is a difference in their movement and manner, like there is with all Border Collies no matter what their doing.

 

I just put in about my dogs to lighten things up. People DO get a kick out of it and it is a bit funny to watch if you get a chance to see them all out at the same time playing ball.

[Lenajo]

You may think you can tell a lot about them as working dogs - or even just if they will or won't - off stock but I have never found it to be true.

 

I've seen some extremely stylish, smooth moving frisbee herders that didn't have enough ability, or even interest to try, on sheep to run through the flock and split'm like an untrained pup.

 

Vis versa I've seen dogs that looked like lumps in the yard who were beautiful on sheep, and a dream for anyone needing work done. My Clem comes to mind...bless his sweet departed soul. He had a head like a shovel, ambled in the rear like a Walking Horse, and ears like a walker hound. He looked pure stupid in the yard, but on sheep he *floated* and you couldn't beat him to gather cattle.

 

And of course there is the opposite to both.

 

I find dog herders annoying at best, dangerous as worst. They piss other dogs off, they run into things because they aren't looking. They "practice" stupid behaviors that if allowed to continue will hurt their real work. They deveolp obsessive patterns instead of actually playing or exercising.

[1sheepdoggal]

QUOTE

Its just a border collie being a border collie. Put those dogs to the test, not an AKC herding test, but an ISDS style novice course, and I think you may find most conformation dogs...lacking.

 

Just an obsevation on working bred collies verses conformation bred collies, not yours in particular, however, you still didnt answer my question, "IF" you "agree," why is there a but?....

[Shoofly]

I find dog herders annoying at best, dangerous as worst. They piss other dogs off, they run into things because they aren't looking. They "practice" stupid behaviors that if allowed to continue will hurt their real work. They deveolp obsessive patterns instead of actually playing or exercising.

 

I agree, though i find it a really hard behavior to fix in my dogs. Billy is driving me nuts right now working Moss when we go on walks. I may just start him even though he's only 6 months old just to show him the difference.

 

FWIW, the most intense dog herder i've had was scared of sheep and never did work for me. The one least interested in working other dogs is Gael, one of the most intense dogs on sheep you'll ever meet.

 

I agree with Darci and Julie P. A dog may MOVE like a BC, but anything other than putting it on stock doesn't tell you didly.

 

And i've had my ankles nipped enough by corgis and watched them head other dogs. It doesn't make them border collies either.

[Lenajo]

It is a hard behavior to stop Robin - I agree.

 

I tend to walk my young dog that tries it with dogs that don't react so that I can discipline her without them shifting and rewarding her. She's getting it...and the reward is she is "discovering" how fun it is to do other things like swim and just race with the other dogs.

 

Depending on the pup the "knock it off" command develops over time. I don't think a hard core dog herding will totally stop it, but you can bury it pretty deep if you are consistant and start young.

 

I almost let it go to long with my girl, because she is so wide on the other dogs it isn't causing fights, and well...she's so darn pretty to watch flitting around. Then she ran into a fence and I got a wake up call....recharged my brain if you will

[mbernard2424]

I find dog herders annoying at best, dangerous as worst. They piss other dogs off, they run into things because they aren't looking. They "practice" stupid behaviors that if allowed to continue will hurt their real work. They deveolp obsessive patterns instead of actually playing or exercising.

 

Oh yea, forgot about running into things. Have you ever seen a dog run into something while actually working stock?

[Shoofly]

Oh yea, forgot about running into things. Have you ever seen a dog run into something while actually working stock?

 

Yep.

[Chesney's Girl]

Dog herding drives me crazy and Chesney is so bad about it. I have the "ENOUGH" I use with him and he's getting what I am telling him enough about. He is constantly circling, when he doesn't quite when I say "enough" I call him off and he has a little "time out". He never really causes trouble because he just chases and circles. (This is three years of an in process quiting of a behavior!)

 

He is keen to his stock though, so I guess I have one with both herding other dogs sense and a keenness to stock lol

[Katelynn & Gang]

Just an obsevation on working bred collies verses conformation bred collies, not yours in particular, however, you still didnt answer my question, "IF" you "agree," why is there a but?....

 

Well to clear that up for you, all my dogs are working bred and not based on how they line up after tackling the tennis ball in the front yard either. And they are more then capable of a Open course.

 

I put a "BUT" because when you see Border Collies playing and socializing, there is a different "movement and manner" about them then everyday dogs or conformation bred dogs. I didn't say when "herding" each other or anything of the kind. They are just all around different.

[Shetlander]

FWIW, the most intense dog herder i've had was scared of sheep and never did work for me. The one least interested in working other dogs is Gael, one of the most intense dogs on sheep you'll ever meet.

 

So not an expert here and Quinn is sports bred. I will say that of all his sports bred friends, Quinn would seem the most unlikely to have any affinity for herding if he were to be judged on his day to day behaviors . He's not one to "herd" other dogs in play. He's not especially motion reactive. His puppy nipping behaviors died a very quick death when I made it clear they were unacceptable.

 

Yet when these dogs finally got to sheep, Quinn was by far the keenest and in his lessons showed at least the ability to do Novice work (according to his intsructor). The other dogs who seemed so "herdy" (sorry -- I know that term bugs people) ranged from limited interest in the sheep to outright fear. I have no working bred dogs to compare Quinn to in play.

[Lenajo]

Oh yea, forgot about running into things. Have you ever seen a dog run into something while actually working stock?

 

yes.

 

It's unfortunatley a side effect of working a lot of places, on a lot of different, often difficult, stock. I try to prevent it but haven't managed too keep my own head free of tree branches long enough to be a credible point to my dogs.

 

I find work injuries a frustrating side effect and I try my best to prevent them....play injuries just make me mad at all involved!