Why?

[Bo Peep]

The main question people ask is the "off switch". Well, I just don't understand. Mine have their time at the park playing and believe me, I CAN NOT put on my snow boots without these 2 getting excited. It all boils down to routine. I think border collies are hooked on routine. Just like the rest of us. We get up at a certain time, brush our teeth, take a shower, the dogs notice that- MINE know "snow boots" so, being a BC owner I just say settle down, put on the boots, walk around for a bit- sit at the computer- BCBoards of course, and then comes the coat- you guys all know the drill. LOL. Then we chill, but once that garage door opens and the leashes are on........ boom- then I hit the garage door and say not yet doggies, and repeat. SO- they never actually know when the time is. Hehehehe. It's kind of like a "I win" game, yet, I don't want it to be like that. I just want them to be obedient. I love it when people tell me how well trained my dogs are- it isn't the breed, it's the time you spend with your dog.

[Sue R]

it isn't the breed, it's the time you spend with your dog.

 

I think this is a very important point but I would just modify it a teensy bit by saying that it's also how you spend that time with your dog that makes the essential difference (and I'm sure that's what you meant). A dog comes wired the way it is, and then we have the opportunity to mold and shape it within the boundaries of its genetic limitations.

[Shoofly]

happy, least especially the little girl with the sore bum. I use this same concept with training Gypsy, if she doesn't do what makes me happy, she will not be happy (no spankings for her though!) If I need to get her attention, or get a point across, (ie, COME when I call..even if that squirrel looks tasty and you might be able to catch it this time...) I will do what it takes to let her know exactly what is expected of her, and the consequences. Then, when presented with the choice, she is able to decide to make both of us happy and do as I ask, or disobey and suffer the consequences (time out, no more fun, etc)

 

I think this is a great point, a non-herding world version of "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard". For the non-herding folks out there -- this is the most basic concept to training a border collie for stockwork, period. We teach our dogs to make good choices based on the consequences of actions.

 

Now here's a thought for you all. Given the above statement, do you think that perhaps that is hard-wired in the dogs, over generations of breeding, and perhaps if people would take that to heart in living with and training their BC, the dogs would be happier, more well adjusted, and easier to live with? I believe border collies, perhaps more than any other breed, need clear, consistent rules and love routine. They need black and white, with as little gray as possible, and they appreciate being told "no, i don't like that" every bit as much, if not more than, "yes, you're making me happy".

[PSmitty]

Well, I currently have one of those weird, neuotic, mentally-challenged (I won't say out of control) dogs as a foster and I think that he is both a product of poor breeding and an owner who didn't ever set any boundaries for him. I don't think you can blame it on just one thing or the other all the time.

 

Yes, exactly! I think those are the two biggest issues (poor breeding & overly permissive/wimpy owners), but it's not all black and white.

 

PS. Since I missed the last page before...but good post, Bill, and spot on. Same for your post, Grace.

[PSmitty]

Now here's a thought for you all. Given the above statement, do you think that perhaps that is hard-wired in the dogs, over generations of breeding, and perhaps if people would take that to heart in living with and training their BC, the dogs would be happier, more well adjusted, and easier to live with? I believe border collies, perhaps more than any other breed, need clear, consistent rules and love routine. They need black and white, with as little gray as possible, and they appreciate being told "no, i don't like that" every bit as much, if not more than, "yes, you're making me happy".

 

I have no idea if it's hard-wired in the border collie or not, I don't have enough experience to even guess. But, I think that ANY dog would be happier, well behaved and well adjusted under those circumstances.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Speaking to Robin's post:

(Bill's post said it all too...)

I learned Tom Dorrance from Jack knox...and would never have believed that you should correct a dog for not coming, and expect it to work (given you taught what a correction was about.) Totally rearranged my way of thinking with dogs, and found that my "feel" for them had been right all the time. Some people don't have faith that good dogs (properly breed for biddability) get it, all we have to do is be there to clearly show what we expect. I wonder with the ball-crazed ones, does the dog go to his version of the boards and write "all she wants to do is play ball, I can't get her to stop, she's pushing me to insanity". My guys all like a good play, but I think they think it pleases me and they want to give me joy.

The same dogs are content to lie around while I get online, clean stalls, ride in the truck, wait, wait wait, and pet clients are amazed how obedient and CALM they are, are they REALLY Border Collies?

 

Having a glorious day, me and my gang, get to go to work some sheep for some folks tomorrow, 7am til dark...and my man Simon will mostly watch and wait...and he and I love life, 'cuz life is good...

[Shoofly]

I have no idea if it's hard-wired in the border collie or not, I don't have enough experience to even guess. But, I think that ANY dog would be happier, well behaved and well adjusted under those circumstances.

 

I actually think it's different for different breeds, and it's smart to take a dog's breed into account in choosing training methods. Border collies are bred to offer endless behaviors trying to find the "right" one, the one that gets the right reaction out of us (a bit of praise, a release to go to the sheep, an end to negative pressure, whatever). That's what makes a border collie so special, and why they're so good at non-sheep activities as well. (i'm going to digress a little here -- i also think the best dogs for "other" sports are probably a little over the top on that particular quality, and when you choose for it and do "sport breedings" and over-accentuate that, you get dogs that offer behaviors non-stop, rapid fire, and don't have the ability to stop and think so much about whether it's good or bad. Their ability to reason goes out the window and they aren't border collies any more in my book.)

 

Anyway, i actually think it's a little cruel to never tell a border collie to "knock it off" or to behave. It's part of what they are and they need the black with the white. And i think a big part of why pet people have a hard time with their dogs is because they aren't consistent in what they expect from a dog. They might get away with it with another breed, where it takes longer to establish patterns and habits. If a BC does something three times, it's a habit, not 15 times like other breeds.

[PSmitty]

I actually think it's different for different breeds, and it's smart to take a dog's breed into account in choosing training methods.

 

Absolutely, I see what you're saying, and agree with your whole post. When I said ANY dog would benefit, I was mostly talking about the "clear, consistent rules and love routine" that you mentioned.

[juliepoudrier]

I think this is a great point, a non-herding world version of "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard". For the non-herding folks out there -- this is the most basic concept to training a border collie for stockwork, period. We teach our dogs to make good choices based on the consequences of actions.

 

Now here's a thought for you all. Given the above statement, do you think that perhaps that is hard-wired in the dogs, over generations of breeding, and perhaps if people would take that to heart in living with and training their BC, the dogs would be happier, more well adjusted, and easier to live with? I believe border collies, perhaps more than any other breed, need clear, consistent rules and love routine.

 

I have no idea if it's hard-wired in the border collie or not, I don't have enough experience to even guess. But, I think that ANY dog would be happier, well behaved and well adjusted under those circumstances.

Paula,

I think that's the point people like Robin and others have been trying to make in this thread--these dogs in general (i.e, when breeding has been considered carefully) *are* hard-wired to want consistent direction, routine, and leadership. They are amazingly smart (as we all know), and I don't know how many times it's been said, but that intelligence enables them to learn the bad as quickly as they learn the good. Unfortunately the bad comes largely from inconsistent (or even incompetent) "handling" by the human part of the equation. You're right that all dogs would thrive on clear rules and routine (as do children), and if only all the folks out there getting border collies would understand that, they would probably find their lives a whole lot easier.

 

Instead they buy into the intelligence = super easy to train (as in the dog should apparently spring from the womb fully self-trained) and that these are hyper dogs that need hours of exercise to be stood in the house. As widespread as these beliefs are, a reasonable person should be able to see that they aren't true. A good relationship with a dog, which in turn leads to well-mannered dog, starts with the owner's expectations and grows from there in the direction the owner takes it based on those expectations (if that makes sense--that is, if the owner expects a neurotic dog that requires hours of exercise a day, the owner will likely create *exactly that* in his/her dog). As an example, think of how neurotic parents can easily raise neurotic children--not intentionally, mind you, but simply because of who they are and how they approach life.

 

To the person (people) who had an issue with Wendy's characterizations of working dog folk, I think the point Wendy was trying to make wasn't that people who have working dogs are somehow better than those who do not. When she talks about how "we" don't have lots of issues with our dogs, even in multiple dog households with rescues and doG knows what else, it's because as a group (and this is a generalization, with all that term implies) we tend to take a common-sense, structured-rules-and-routines approach (as mentioned by Robin) to training *any* dog. I think Kristine is the main positive training advocate in this discussion, and I'd be willing to bet that the reason her approach works is because she also has a household that has structured rules and routines (and I seem to remember her saying in the past that she does establish rules in her household--she can correct me if I'm misremembering). In other words, it's not so much about the *exact method* you use for training, but more about your philosophical approach to training a dog (or any other animal, including human children) that makes all the difference.

 

That's how I see it anyway.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

Absolutely, I see what you're saying, and agree with your whole post. When I said ANY dog would benefit, I was mostly talking about the "clear, consistent rules and love routine" that you mentioned.

 

Great!

 

Back to the way-back-when original question (Marilyn, i guess i did have something to say ) -- I think the one size fits all, all breed type of training is just not always appropriate for border collies and may have something to do with a lot of the ill-behaved dogs we hear about on this board. A dog bred to be stubborn or tough and a dog bred to be a behavior offering fool need different styles of training. Yes, there are some BCs that will dig in their heels if you put negative pressure on them but they are few and far between. Do that do a bulldog or a similar breed and you'll be all day trying to get them to change their behavior to avoid the negative pressure (and my money is on the dog winning). Anyway, that's my theory - you have to understand the dog and people just don't.

[PSmitty]

Yup, got it, Julie. I really like how you and Robin both explained it.

[Dixie_Girl]

Maybe it IS because there are so many, weird, phobic, neuratic, mentally out of control people?

[Lenajo]

Maybe it IS because there are so many, weird, phobic, neuratic, mentally out of control people?

 

Yes, but its not their fault because they were abused. And they can't help their genetics, so it isn't very nice of us to point that out. You know humans can't be taught anything, and they are going to ruin dogs because they are overwhelmed by their primate instincts. It's all those bad parents you know. They shouldn't be breeding if they haven't proven themselves at a job....

 

[Dixie_Girl]

LOL Your sarcasm is noted, appreciated, and agreed with!

[mbc1963]

Well, I feel as though I'm one of the "recent" posters who's posted more than a few times to ask questions about my dog. I'm definitely not one of the older-timers who gets 100 responses to every post and whose training methods are considered top-notch.

 

My dog came home as a young adult 2.5 years ago, really reactive to people and dogs and lots of things. We've made a lot of progress, but he's still not laid back and normal, and probably won't ever be entirely predictable when he hits his threshhold. I come in from time to time to ask specific questions about behaviors and also to vent to others with similar problems who have worked with similar dogs. The boards have been a huge and valuable resource to me.

 

Why do you see me and others like me here? I honestly think we're trying to learn and make progress. Many are probably like me, and took in a dog with layers of previous history they can't control... and are trying hard to work through problems they didn't create. (Blame "Babe" if you want.) Others are just looking for support about typical adolescent nonsense that even veterans admit can drive you crazy.

 

Mary

[Root Beer]

I think Kristine is the main positive training advocate in this discussion, and I'd be willing to bet that the reason her approach works is because she also has a household that has structured rules and routines (and I seem to remember her saying in the past that she does establish rules in her household--she can correct me if I'm misremembering).

 

That's 100% correct. We definitely have rules and routines and they are clear to the dogs, and are kept pretty consistent. I teach the dogs what those rules are and how to follow them - same as everybody else who has rules and structure for their dogs. I teach the dogs what the rules are and how they follow them by focusing on what I want them to do rather than what I don't want them to do. And almost everyone on the board does that, too - I just use that approach pretty much exclusively.

 

But in a lot of cases the end result looks the same.

 

The dog who is waiting for his breakfast politely is also not being pushy. The dog who is waiting in a sit as the door opens is not rushing the door. The dog that is chilling out on the futon, or playing with a toy independently, or playing with one of the other dogs as I watch TV or do household chores is not pestering for games all the time. The dog who stops barking when I say "Thank you!" is not barking obsessively. The dog who is sitting on his mat at my feet during agility class calmly watching the activity on the floor is not bark lunging and going crazy. A dog who is walking on a loose leash is not pulling on the leash. A dog that is engaged in playing a game on the lawn, or is just relaxing in the sun under a tree is not rushing the fence to chase cars.

 

A debate about whether the exclusive use of positive methods can produce the exact results that one wants is completely off topic.

 

What is on topic is that I really don't think that the fact that so many Border Collies are reactive, obsessive, out of control, etc. can be blamed on a particular training methodology. That was the main reason why I brought up the fact, waaay back in this discussion, that the opposite of exclusively positive training (whatever you want to call that!) isn't curtailing this problem, either.

 

Part of what I was trying to say by "appropriate match" earlier is that an appropriate match of dog and owner is that the owner is going to provide the kind of structure and leadership that the dog requires to be a generally well behaved companion.

 

That said, there are neurological problems that training can't fix. To discount that completely would be like saying that autistic children or children with ADD are that way as a result of the way their parents have raised them. But most dogs don't fall into that category and in most cases of dogs that do, they can helped to some extent through training and structure and fair leadership.

[Chesney's Girl]

Dang! I go to Memphis for a day and miss all this!

 

I have to agree with most of what was all said (Robin, Bill, Julie P, Anna, Wendy...)

 

I think the owner just needs to cowboy up and be in charge. Have an idea of a sane dog in mind and just have a consistent day to day routine (for the most part) And MOST (if not all) Border Collies will follow that routine with a normal amount of activity. I just don't understand the HUGE life change in activities that people think come with a Border Collie (like the non-stop ball throwing).

 

I would have to say that it goes back to the combination and matching of dog an owner. There are more and more Border Collies with 'issues' being bred that are getting paired with first time Border Collie owners. Its trouble waiting to happen. I think just choosing more wisely would help prevent A LOT of the problems.

 

I'm sure everything I said was just a repeat but thats just how I would have answered the OP and since I was MIA for a day this is what you get

[Lenajo]

Why do you see me and others like me here? I honestly think we're trying to learn and make progress. Many are probably like me, and took in a dog with layers of previous history they can't control... and are trying hard to work through problems they didn't create. (Blame "Babe" if you want.) Others are just looking for support about typical adolescent nonsense that even veterans admit can drive you crazy.

 

I think we see you as trying hard to improve and learn. That is appreciated and respected. There is a big difference between a novice asking questions (which yes, are often redundant but that's normal on public forum) and doing what you do, and those that just ask questions to here themsevles talk.

 

Just like you improve in dog training as you practice, the "old" posters here improved at spotting patterns and problems before a new person even realizes what they just said. Sometimes thats not appreciated but we'll live!

[Wendy V]

Just a quick note on this topic:

 

Long ago, I was on a flyball team with mostly pet/sport enthusiasts. One team we fielded consisted of all herding border collies and one well trained JRT. It was the only team present that stood at the start line with all dogs completely silent. All other teams had lunging, barking, screeching dogs. We were competitive without all the theatrics. It had everything to do with our expectations of the dogs. We didn't feel that there was any need for hysterics; that the drive was present without the vocalizations. Our dogs were thinking instead of screeching. Our silence fell on deaf ears, unfortunately.

[Shetlander]

It was the only team present that stood at the start line with all dogs completely silent. All other teams had lunging, barking, screeching dogs. We were competitive without all the theatrics. It had everything to do with our expectations of the dogs. We didn't feel that there was any need for hysterics; that the drive was present without the vocalizations. Our dogs were thinking instead of screeching.

 

Quinn already had a great start line stay when we started his beginner's agility class. The instructor asked me to demo it. I told Quinn "ready" and as I was leading out, the instructor said "Stop! Go back to your dog!" I was surprised that maybe Quinn had broken his stay, but he was right where I left him watching me calmly. I returned and said, "But this is how we do our lead out." She shrugged and said "OK, go ahead," expecting us to demonstrate a slow, unmotivated start. I set Quinn up again, led out 2 jumps, called him and he shot off the start line like a rocket. The instructor was very surprised because she thought I had taught an obedience "static" stay. She laughed and said "That was great. Quinn is just a cool dog." She was more used to salivating, barking, vibrating dogs, I'd guess.

[herdcentral]

Some years ago I was looking for a new ACD. I rang one breeder and before he would even discuss the possibility of me getting a dog from him he wanted to know every detail about my daily life in relation to the dog. He told me that his dogs were bred to work or do a job and he refused to sell to anyone that didnt understand this concept.

 

He actually refused to sell to anyone who lived in the city unless they could prove that they could provide what he thought would be a suitable home with plenty of daily structured interaction and training. He wanted a detailed account of the dogs daily life and the training pholosophy of the prospective owner.

 

He told me that far to many herding type dogs ended up in rescue for behaviour that was often linked to the owners lack of understanding of the qualities of the breed that they were buying into.

[HighDesertSpice]

I like Bill's list too. It was entertaining. In that spirit of friendly banter:

 

Dogs:

“They’re” the ones with the weird dogs, and if one of our dog’s has a problem, it’s because of something “they” did.

It’s true because we say so.

 

Handlers:

All good handlers are us; all others are “them”

“Honest Inquiry” is what them wacked-out, wimpy folks (but not liberals, mind you) do with wacko dogs.

Questions: if you hear any, it must be them ACK folks, or those agility flyball sport nuts, or those ….permissive, selfish, pawsitive nut cases.

There are two kinds of folks who come to visit the boards – us, and the poor folks who don’t know how to handle a border collie (probably an inferior one too).

.

 

Training Methods:

Methods other than ours are just “purely pawsitive”—just pure bunk.

If it worked for a competent handler that’s not one of us….you didn’t see it right. Either it didn’t’ work or the handler was …well, that wasn’t no handler.

 

Communication:

Discussing our ideas with those who agree with us.

If someone has a point we don’t want to hear, circle the wagons.

Or stonewall.

Or Salt your posts with phrases that use words like “inept”, “selfish”, or “permissive”.

If that doesn’t work, start a new thread and deride all of the ideas that we don’t like all over again.

Or better, list the problems we see and attribute them to “them”.

If anything you ever said agrees with what one of “them” said, change your mind quick.

We don’t ever remember what we said before—and if it’s in the archives, well just forget about that.

 

Others:

There's only two camps--US and Them

Anyone who doesn’t agree with what we’re saying when we say it. Doesn’t matter if it’s consistent with what we said before—this ain’t the ‘Communication’ section.

Whatever we think they are, they gotta be. Why we can ust spot 'em--those patterns....don't need NO facts.

 

Growth:

Huh? You mean the stubble on my chin?

 

 

Edit: I edited this a day or so after the original posting. The change had to do with a refrain I added at the end of each stanza "It's about how we do things." I felt this was over the top. 'Thought I also made a quip about liberals. Dont' see it now. I put that in there originally to get a rise out of Bill, whose original list i was parodying....ok, this was over the top. Please see my last post in this thread.

[Seelie Fey]

Do any of you think some of the change you are seeing might also be partly due to the vastly different expectations we have of dogs, now?

 

When I was a child, we lived in a rural area. We didn't even own leashes for the dogs. There were no crates. The only strangers the dogs encountered were rare visitors to the house, and the dogs were expected to bark and carry on. They never met strange dogs. It never occured to us to take the dogs to an obedience class. The dogs spent a lot of time outside, by themselves.

 

Now, as an adult, my dogs live in a city. They encounter strangers, canine and human, on a daily basis. The dogs are walked on leash every day. They go on multistate trips and stay in hotels. They both went through obedience classes as soon as I brought them home, and they train for and compete in flyball. I expect them to fit in and play with strange dogs and people at dog parks and after practice. They are never outside, unattended, except when I am at work.

 

The problems I had when I first brought each home probably would not have manifested in the less structured environment of my childhood. You all have much more experience with and knowledge about border collies than I do, but I would think this cultural change brings to light a lot of behaviour/tempermental issues like excessive shyness, stranger aggression and reactivity to other dogs that are hidden by a less social life.

[MrSnappy]

I think Bill's list made a lot of sense. Unlike ... most things you seem to post. There's a good reason why people consistently respond to you with some variation of "huh?"

 

What I think was missing from Bill's list was the pervasiveness of the internet as a learning/teaching/venting resource. It sure feels to me like there are more border collies out there, and more whacked out border collies out there than ever, but also I can "talk" to a lot more people than ever before, so about 99% of those folks with "problem" border collies I would never have heard of or from ten years ago. This magnifies everything.

 

One thing that is always amazing to me is just the sheer number of people who don't know what a well behaved dog is. I did a trade fair booth this afternoon for work and brought Piper with me, she being an extremely social little beastie. This is a very busy fair. I think maybe 85 people told me how well behaved she was. I don't find her particularly well behaved, and compared to my Briggs she is almost unruly. But compared to the other dogs I saw, she certainly is very well behaved. My expectations are higher perhaps, but in general, people's disconnect with their dogs is really significant.

 

I also believe there is a much smaller disconnect between something as organic as shepherd/dog/sheep and the work involved, and the average pet owner and their dog. Certainly there are the sorts of folks who find themselves very invested in fad, trend, or theory and there are also folks who are invested in doing what works, and has worked, for a really long time. But there are also handlers who are gifted with dogs at both ends of the training spectrum - and in between lies everyone else with varying degrees of success or failure. I cannot fathom how purely positive trainers get their dogs to do anything, but I am not a gifted trainer, so that's hardly a surprise. I have more success at a basic level of no-nonsense handling, but will happily tell you that some stockdog people consider me permissive and sappy. But I too do not have quite the organic connection with my dogs that someone more gifted might have, so that's no surprise.

 

Doing rescue I certainly see dogs who are over-the-top nuts, and should be (and have been subsequently) medicated for it, OCD dogs being at the forefront of this list, with it trickling down to some "hyper" dogs. Most (but not all) of the problem dogs have simply never had any, or enough, boundaries and once they are in foster care, in a stable environment with someone who does not tolerate the dog pushing it boundaries, the dog becomes much more reasonable to live with. So while there are certainly dogs who are over the top by nature, my experience tells me most of them are over the top by nurture. And some dogs have more bounce back from crappy handling than others. The ratio of dogs that are salvageable compared to the very small number who are not is consistent, and suggests that there are still way more "normal" dogs than not.

 

RDM

[Liz P]

Do any of you think some of the change you are seeing might also be partly due to the vastly different expectations we have of dogs, now?

 

Yes, part of it. My Dad grew up in the South. His dogs all ran loose when he was a kid. He moved to a small town outside of New Orleans 4 years ago. I send him my oldest dog for the winter because he has very bad arthritis and the cold bothers him. He loves it down there because people treat him like a dog and not a furry human. It's hard to explain, but they know some dogs bite, but most are friendly if given their space, and the dogs really respond to that.

 

But I also think it's people not knowing how to train dogs, how to act around them, not providing structure and exercise, poor breeding practices AND people's general attitude about everything these days (I want what I want and I want it NOW!).