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Miniature Border Collies

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[quote name='Liz P' post='212210' date='Jan 21 2008, 10:17 AM']But ther IS![/quote]
Oh yes, and they're all out buying miniaturized versions of something or doodle crosses....

J.

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My Jen was measured at a flyball tournament once and after they finally got her to stop wiggling :rolleyes: , she measured at 15 1/2 inches. That made her a height dog, easy. There was a crowd waiting around to see, even though we were almost the last in line that morning. You can just imagine the conversations I had at that tourney from people who didn't actually know me (certain people knew better, lol!).

Her littermates ranged from her, to smallish/normal to normal, to one 22 inch dog at least (I think he wasn't the only big one, either).

That's the thing with the little Border Collies, they are often one-offs, so it would take a lot of culling to get the size down consistently using just purebreds. Narrow that down to just dogs that work even to a standard of basic competence, and are healthy and of sound temperament, and you'd have a nearly impossible task.

It's a good example of how even one physical standard makes it difficult to select for sound working ability.

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[quote name='sheepandakom' post='212214' date='Jan 21 2008, 08:30 AM'][attachment=1795:Piper1.JPG][attachment=1796:Piper2.JPG][/quote]

It's a real good thing VA is so far away, and that the pup is already named Piper, because that is one damn cute puppy.

RDM

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[quote name='Flamincomet' post='211941' date='Jan 20 2008, 12:37 AM']Yesterday my fiance called me from work to inform me that his boss's wife has purchased what the breeder claims to be a miniature border collie. This obviously upset me very much, and I asked for the phone number of the breeder, and offered help to the boss if he ever needed it. (As I'm assuming they don't know much about BCs if they think mini BCs are legitimate) The next day I gave my fiance puppy pads that we never used (We bought a pack of 50 when Ghost was 8 weeks, and after he shredded 2 to bits we never used another) along with about 5 pages of useful info on the BC breed to give to them, with my offer of continued help if they ever needed it. I was most concerned when I heard that the pup was already jumping up on their 1 year old daughter, so I thought they would welcome any help.

Well, the boss was very polite and thanked us, but about 45 minutes before my fiance's shift was over, he was motioned over by the wife, where she was extremely rude to him, resorting to abusive language, and basically said that she knew everything about the breed and didn't need anyone's help.

I still offered help to the boss if he ever needs it, but have given up on having a reasonable conversation with the wife. I am looking forward to that pup hitting 6 months of age needless to say.

Reguardless, this is very distressing information, and I am hoping that this problem is not too wide spread. Has anyone else heard anything of this sort?

Autumn[/quote]

you have to be kidding me!!!!??? i have never heard of a mini bc...absolutely crazy! in addition to maceo, our bc, we have a 4yr old yorkie, levi, who weights about 7.5 lbs... this breed has this issue as well, with the breeding of 'teacup' yorkies...they are suppose to be between 5-8 lbs...not 2 and 3 lbs...it is terrible for the dog, and leads to MANY health issues... i hope this kind of expoiltation doesn't happen to bc's! levi and maceo are the best of friends, but we would be in trouble if levi was any smaller! especially with the way those two play 'tug o war' lol!

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[quote name='Rebecca, Irena Farm' post='212222' date='Jan 21 2008, 03:49 PM']My Jen was measured at a flyball tournament once and after they finally got her to stop wiggling :rolleyes: , she measured at 15 1/2 inches. That made her a height dog, easy. There was a crowd waiting around to see, even though we were almost the last in line that morning. You can just imagine the conversations I had at that tourney from people who didn't actually know me (certain people knew better, lol!).[/quote]

So is Jen acutally 15.5 inches? Just wondering because I know in flyball a lot of dogs seem to be measured smaller than they actually are. Even our dogs who stack well for measurement were always measured less then their actual height. I always hate measuring flyball dogs that are used as height dogs for agility trials, as I invariably get into an argument wtih the handler because my measurement is always different than their flyball measurements.

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We've seen several "mini" border collies pulled out of shelters here in Texas. I, in fact, have a foster failure that's only 17lbs and 15" tall and is about 1 1/2-2 yrs old. Everything about her is miniaturized except for her personality. I haven't had a chance to put her on sheep yet but plan to in the next few weeks. She's extremely herdy with the other dogs so it should be interesting to see what she may or might not do.

[img]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/Blueborders/NewJaz/Jaz1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/Blueborders/NewJaz/Jaz10.jpg[/img]

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[quote name='Blueborders' post='212271' date='Jan 21 2008, 06:48 PM']We've seen several "mini" border collies pulled out of shelters here in Texas. I, in fact, have a foster failure that's only 17lbs and 15" tall and is about 1 1/2-2 yrs old. Everything about her is miniaturized except for her personality. I haven't had a chance to put her on sheep yet but plan to in the next few weeks. She's extremely herdy with the other dogs so it should be interesting to see what she may or might not do.

[img]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/Blueborders/NewJaz/Jaz1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/Blueborders/NewJaz/Jaz10.jpg[/img][/quote]

She is VERY cute :rolleyes:

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Small Dog says he'd be better classified as a miniature border collie. :rolleyes: I've actually had people ask me if he was.

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/lkcarson/Zippy/100_1148.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/lkcarson/Zippy/100b0551.jpg[/img]

But yes, it's all about the almighty dollar - teacup this, and miniature that. *sigh* If you want a small dog - then get a small dog. I think it's quite senseless to mess around trying to mini-fy an already established breed.

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I have a question (and please forgive my ignorance, but I'm clueless on these types of topics), how do you make a miniture BC, Aussie, or any large breed?? I'm confused, as to how you do this. Do you look for a small BC and breed w/ another small BC, in hopes that they keep getting smaller and smaller???? Sorry, but just don't get it. :rolleyes:

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Still thinking about this..blech...
Could it possibly be that the ignorant egomaniac who the OP tried to help has actually got the breed wrong?
Could it perhaps be a sheltie?

On a slightly different tack, I once allowed pretension to get the better of me and asked the new scottish vet what mix he thought my Meg was.

He looked at me over his glasses and said 'she's a wee blaack doog, madam.'

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[quote name='Janet808' post='212532' date='Jan 22 2008, 12:54 PM']I have a question (and please forgive my ignorance, but I'm clueless on these types of topics), how do you make a miniture BC, Aussie, or any large breed?? I'm confused, as to how you do this. Do you look for a small BC and breed w/ another small BC, in hopes that they keep getting smaller and smaller???? Sorry, but just don't get it. :rolleyes:[/quote]
I think you could start this way, but as Becca points out you could still get larger pups out of two smaller dogs, so it would take longer to really fix the miniaturized traits. I wouldn't doubt if breeders bred in some sort of toy breed to get a similar result, much more quickly.

J.

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At least with Aussies, the "standard" for a so called mini Aussie is 25-40lbs. That's border collie sized, and not very "mini" at all - it's just not the same size as the giant show Aussies that go up to 70lbs etc and are all hair. I know many working bred Aussies that are in the 30-40lb range and are certainly not minis.

Then we come to the so called "toy Aussie" and I really do not see how these critters are not infused with some toy-breed blood, like maybe pomeranian or similar. I mean look at them:

[img]http://www.toyminiaussies.com/d-sky-gnat.jpg[/img]

[i]"Estimated to be 10" (and) the micro aussies estimated to be 8-9" and 608lbs"[/i]

I don't know too much about breeding, but I don't know how you would scale a 40lb breed down to a 9lb breed without crossing it with something already in that size range.

They don't even really resemble Aussies anymore, when they get to that size.

RDM

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[quote name='Dalesred' post='212533' date='Jan 22 2008, 06:00 PM']Still thinking about this..blech...
Could it possibly be that the ignorant egomaniac who the OP tried to help has actually got the breed wrong?
Could it perhaps be a sheltie?[/quote]

Unfortunately I'm almost positive they got the breed right, the boss's grandparents have BCs, so he knows what they look like, and when my fiance asked him if it was perhaps a sheltie he said defidently not.

Sad that people can get tricked like that, they aren't for sure even going to get a "mini" as the dam was 15 lbs (Yes, 15!!) but the sire was average sized. Try explaining THAT to the ignorant wife!!

And OMG, GROSS!! Those mini "aussies" look more like poms than anything! They defidently had to be cross-breeding to get those things!

Autumn

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[quote name='MrSnappy' post='212545' date='Jan 22 2008, 06:20 PM']I don't know too much about breeding, but I don't know how you would scale a 40lb breed down to a 9lb breed without crossing it with something already in that size range.

They don't even really resemble Aussies anymore, when they get to that size.

RDM[/quote]

They have been crossed down with smaller breeds similar in looks, etc and then bred back to look sort of like Aussies. A lady not too far from me breeds Mini and Toy AUssies, and you can defintely tell the Toy Aussies have something else in them. I am thinking maybe poms or papillons. All of hers had tails and tail sets like a JRT though. Ugly little things - look like something the cat would drag in from the sloughs.

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[quote name='MrSnappy' post='212545' date='Jan 22 2008, 06:20 PM']I don't know too much about breeding, but I don't know how you would scale a 40lb breed down to a 9lb breed without crossing it with something already in that size range.

They don't even really resemble Aussies anymore, when they get to that size.

RDM[/quote]

They have been crossed down with smaller breeds similar in looks, etc and then bred back to look sort of like Aussies. A lady not too far from me breeds Mini and Toy Aussies, and you can defintely tell the Toy Aussies have something else in them. I am thinking maybe poms or papillons. All of hers had tails and tail sets like a JRT though. Ugly little things - look like something the cat would drag in from the sloughs. :rolleyes:

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I've heard that some people breed Aussies to Chihuahuas. Thats why a lot of them have the huge skulls and bulging eyes. Its just gross.

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[quote name='dogsofmenace' post='212623' date='Jan 22 2008, 02:00 PM']I've heard that some people breed Aussies to Chihuahuas. Thats why a lot of them have the huge skulls and bulging eyes. Its just gross.[/quote]
Arrggghhh -- now I'm trying to clear my head of the mental image of THAT act!!

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[quote name='MrSnappy' post='212545' date='Jan 22 2008, 01:20 PM']At least with Aussies, the "standard" for a so called mini Aussie is 25-40lbs. That's border collie sized, and not very "mini" at all - it's just not the same size as the giant show Aussies that go up to 70lbs etc and are all hair. I know many working bred Aussies that are in the 30-40lb range and are certainly not minis.

Then we come to the so called "toy Aussie" and I really do not see how these critters are not infused with some toy-breed blood, like maybe pomeranian or similar. I mean look at them:

[img]http://www.toyminiaussies.com/d-sky-gnat.jpg[/img]

[i]"Estimated to be 10" (and) the micro aussies estimated to be 8-9" and 608lbs"[/i]

I don't know too much about breeding, but I don't know how you would scale a 40lb breed down to a 9lb breed without crossing it with something already in that size range.

They don't even really resemble Aussies anymore, when they get to that size.

RDM[/quote]
Looks like a Chu! Just because it has the merle coat, doesn't make it a miniture Aussie. But, I guess there are people out there that will believe anything! That's kind a gross lookin!

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[quote name='Janet808' post='212959' date='Jan 24 2008, 10:15 AM']Looks like a Chu! Just because it has the merle coat, doesn't make it a miniture Aussie. But, I guess there are people out there that will believe anything! That's kind a gross lookin![/quote]

I think this thread is interesting because some Chi breeders think that merle was introduced to the breed sometime during the time that mini Aussies were created (that breeders fudged some papers). The merle Chis are often huge compared to other colors.

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Hmmm...surely none of those merle chihuhuas are registered with AKC? Wouldn't they require DNA testing if there was such a suspiciion? I know there are other registries out there, but I guess what I'm asking is if Chi breeders are wondering how merle got there, what are they doing about it, if anything?

J.

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if Chi breeders are wondering how merle got there, what are they doing about it, if anything?[quote][/quote]

Breeding more dont cha know!! Their rare, and...EXPENSIVE!

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Some are working very hard to get the color banned. It seems that even the heterozygous merles are being born with serious birth defects (often blind, deaf, don't survive the first week).

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Talking about the breeding in a smaller breed doesn't surprise me at all. That's what happened to the Sheltie. I have 3 Shelties here and they range from 18lbs to 41.5lbs. Based on their history, the breeders wanted to "downsize" the breed, so they bred in Pomeranians and small spitz type dogs, but then found that they lost their "collie" look, so as late as the 1960s, the Rough Coated Collie was being bred in. That's why you find such a fluctuation in sizes of the Shetland Sheepdog. I just hate to see what's happening. It seems like there are too many people out there that are money hungry and don't care the slightest about the dogs. Then you have people that only want these tiny dogs to make a statement (status symbol as such). It's sickening to see what is becoming of our beloved breeds.

BTW, Laura, loved the pics of the Papillon. I'm not a small dog person, but I've always loved watching the Paps and have heard that they're wonderful dogs. I figure that if I ever decide to have a tiny dog, then I'll definitely research that breed. That will be a ways down the road, though. :rolleyes:

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I had heard about that with shelties...I didn't realize that collies had been bred in as late as the 60's. No wonder I have a 19" sheltie. Thay "toy aussie" looks like a purebred longhair chi...the other one...ick.

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