Running Contacts?

[Geoffrey]

Does anyone here do running contacts? If so, how did you teach them? Opinions on the wires/hoops that are sometimes used to teach a running contact/not to bounce off the contact?

[BC Wild Child]

I don't use a running contact (both of my dogs striding doesn't fit with a running contact), but the person I used to train with does. She taught primarily using a target and started with the A-frame on the ground and then gradually raised it. Always keeping a target at the base.

 

I saw some BC's at a trial several months ago that used the Hit it trainer. Very nice running contacts. There have been some nice articles in Clean Run recently that talked about running contacts.

 

Clean Run store

[Rosanne]

I train with running contacts on some of my dogs.

I never use hoops. They don't teach a dog anything useful.

 

I used a foot target on one dog (Drifter) but then faded it away on the a-frame for a natural running stride. He is supposed to hit it still on his dogwalk but sometimes blows me off at trials.

 

Running contacts are not for beginning trainers or for the faint of heart. They require that you uphold criteria constantly, have great timing in rewarding/correcting your dog, and be a good enough handler to handle complicated sequences without the dog pausing on the end of the contact.

 

I know some dogs who have had great success with Hit It boards, and some that have had little to no success at all with it. I don't personally like it very much. I want to reward the dog for the behavior, and I want the behavior to be deliberate on the dog's part, not just incidentally brushing the right spot.

[Geoffrey]

So far I've been lucky doing running contacts, I guess. I've been using food targets and started with hoops, but we don't use them anymore because I didn't like them (and Zeke ran into them and ripped them out of the ground, and bent several - they were wire stick-in-the-ground hoops.) I think the reason I have been lucky is that my agility dog is the big yellow lab (small for a lab, though) in my signature. He's kinda heavy boned and isn't quite as inclined to go flying off the contacts - although he can if I am not careful. Would it be advisable to go back and make him a 2o2o dog (with nose touch? without) ? I think I definitely need to do something about the way he handles the teeter, at least.

 

So far I haven't really come across a need to have him pause on the contact, but we're not competing at the higher levels yet (read: green dog who tends to get distracted from the course easily).

[Northof49]

I train with running contacts on some of my dogs.

I never use hoops. They don't teach a dog anything useful.

 

Sure they do - they help create muscle memory and they ensure that the dog always maintains correct criteria. For many people, the only place where there are no hoops is in the ring. They can be very important for dogs that are high headed as it forces them to lower their heads to go under the hoops - where goeth the head goeth the rest of the canine body.

 

An alternative to a "running" contact, which according to a lot of people in the States, you cannot claim you have unless your dog goes a million miles an hour (I guess if you have a medium speed dog you are to call it a canterng contact; if you have a dog that trots over the contacts I guess you must call that a "trotting contact" ) is a "moving contact , which is where you teach the dog to lie down automatically after it leaves the contact, and you then release the dog. I taught this to my youngest dog, as I wanted to get away from the 2o2o on the Aframe, but also realized I needed control at the bottom. If I don't want her to lie down, which is very rarely, I give the release word just as she is coming off the contact. I also taught her to jump the apex of the Aframe to maintain her forward momentum and striding on the down side of the Aframe.

 

Teaching a moving contact to people that have a hard time maintaining criteria is a lot easier that the standard 2o2o. It's pretty easy to get them to understand that the only time the dog gets rewarded is when it lies down. A hoop or equivalent at the bottom ensures that the head stays down and the dog always runs down to the floor.

 

As well, there are certain breeds and individuals within a breed that should definitely not be taught a 2o2o on an Aframe.

[Northof49]

So far I've been lucky doing running contacts, I guess. I've been using food targets and started with hoops, but we don't use them anymore because I didn't like them (and Zeke ran into them and ripped them out of the ground, and bent several - they were wire stick-in-the-ground hoops.) I think the reason I have been lucky is that my agility dog is the big yellow lab (small for a lab, though) in my signature. He's kinda heavy boned and isn't quite as inclined to go flying off the contacts - although he can if I am not careful. Would it be advisable to go back and make him a 2o2o dog (with nose touch? without) ? I think I definitely need to do something about the way he handles the teeter, at least.

 

So far I haven't really come across a need to have him pause on the contact, but we're not competing at the higher levels yete (read: green dog who tends to get distracted from the course easily).

 

We use hoola hoops that have been cut apart, or we have a rectangle made out of small diameter PVC piping.

 

You state that he isn't inclined to go flying off contacts as long as you are careful. It sounds like you are babysitting him and you are responsible for making him do the contacts correctly. Ideally the dog should be taught how to execute equipment correctly and that it is his responsibility to do so, not the handler's. Once you are starting to compete at the higher levels, if it is USDAA or AKC, you are going to end up having to do distance contacts in gamblers, etc and that is going to be tough if you are responsible for making sure he hits his contacts. If he is 20+ feet away from you, you aren't there to babysit him. One of the gambles I love to throw out is having a competitor send the dog ahead of them to do a contact. They are stuck 22' behind their dog - that shows me what dogs have been taught that their job is to execute the contact equipment independent of their handlers and which ones have not. It's a perfectely legal gamble.

 

One thing you have to realize is that re-training contacts is hardly ever successful, and you can't trial and re-train at the same time. Being that he is a Lab and they are very "frontend heavy" and you say he is kind of heavy boned, you have to decide if a 2o2o on the Aframe would be in his best interests.

[Olivia]

I've seen the 4 on the floor contact technique done a few times in competition (where the dog downs at the end of each contact). At 2 different shows I've seen handlers called for training in the ring for the dog doing the down. I was under the impression that you can't down your dog between obstacles in order to regain control and downing after a contact is downing between that contact and the next obstacle.

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I know I've seen it. If it is a grey area then the best advice I've seen read is "don't make the judge have to think", maybe pick a different contact performance or modify this one to your liking.

 

Olivia

[Northof49]

I've seen the 4 on the floor contact technique done a few times in competition (where the dog downs at the end of each contact). At 2 different shows I've seen handlers called for training in the ring for the dog doing the down. I was under the impression that you can't down your dog between obstacles in order to regain control and downing after a contact is downing between that contact and the next obstacle.

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I know I've seen it. If it is a grey area then the best advice I've seen read is "don't make the judge have to think", maybe pick a different contact performance or modify this one to your liking.

 

Olivia

 

Which associations? I compete in AAC, NADAC and USDAA, though not as much in USDAA these last couple of years. I don't tell my dog to lie down, it is an automatic down that she is trained for. I realize that Judge's personal bias will always influence their judging, as I myself am an agility Judge. However, telling your dog to stop at the bottom of the contacts in a 2o2o position is controlling your dog as well, as far as I am concerned. Downing as soon as dog leaves a contact is no different and its time that that was recognized, the fact that one is in a down position and one is in a sit or a stand position, is the same results. You have stopped your dog between obstacles. The fact that you have stopped the dog between obstacles regardless of position, should then be considered training in the ring. I will never be called for it in AAC and NADAC, and so far I have never been called for it in USDAA (but that's not saying I may be at some point in time).

 

I know some USDAA Judges have split hairs so bad that IF you tell your dog to stay at the start line AS YOU START TO TAKE YOUR FIRST STEP away from the dog, they will nail you for training in the ring. As some point there needs to be a reality check.

[Olivia]

I saw it called in USDAA and AKC. That said the judges did say at the judges meeting that they wouldn't tolerate training in the ring, which I took to include downing or sitting your dog between obstacles to regain control. I always thought that the 2o2o was okay because the dog hadn't left the obstacle yet so they could stop.

 

I know I've also seen dogs called for an off course (same venues) doing a one rear toe on contact because the dog leaves the contact with all four feet and then reaches back to put one foot back on. It's fast but all feet do leave the contact before the foot is put back on. I've heard that this contact performance is losing favor because of this problem. It's apparently very hard to teach without teaching the dog to leave the equipment and then put the foot back on.

 

I know judges have to make decisions, very quickly and they do the best they can to be fair and consistent. I read a editorial a few months ago in Clean Run about blowing on your dogs face to get his attention on the table is considered training in the ring in most venues. I was surprised about that. Wouldn't clapping your hands also be considered training, same goal...to get your dog's attention? But I've never seen anyone called for that.

 

Olivia

[Shetlander]

I know judges have to make decisions, very quickly and they do the best they can to be fair and consistent. I read a editorial a few months ago in Clean Run about blowing on your dogs face to get his attention on the table is considered training in the ring in most venues. I was surprised about that. Wouldn't clapping your hands also be considered training, same goal...to get your dog's attention? But I've never seen anyone called for that.

 

Or what about screeching voices when the dog is headed off course or looks like it's going to blow a contact? Or yelling NO? I've seen people stomp their feet in addition to clapping their hands at the table. I tend to give an obedience signal for the sit. It gets kinda crazy trying to define what is training in the ring. Too bad about people getting called for a down after the contact. Sometimes it seems that organizations end up trying to suck all the fun out of a sport.

 

I mean, really, if we're willing to disgrace ourselves publicly by doing a "cookie cookie cookie" lure or recall (that always makes me insane to see) in the ring or caper around the table trying to hold a dog's attention, isn't that punishment enough?

[Northof49]

I saw it called in USDAA and AKC. That said the judges did say at the judges meeting that they wouldn't tolerate training in the ring, which I took to include downing or sitting your dog between obstacles to regain control. I always thought that the 2o2o was okay because the dog hadn't left the obstacle yet so they could stop.

 

The thing is a stop is a stop is a stop in my books, so what makes one kind of stop at a contact training in the ring and others are not?

 

I know I've also seen dogs called for an off course (same venues) doing a one rear toe on contact because the dog leaves the contact with all four feet and then reaches back to put one foot back on. It's fast but all feet do leave the contact before the foot is put back on. I've heard that this contact performance is losing favor because of this problem. It's apparently very hard to teach without teaching the dog to leave the equipment and then put the foot back on.

 

I call the same thing. What usually goes on here is that if the dog does not do the contact correctly, the handler has usually had the dog back up to reinforce the 2o2o contact (which I do not presonally agree with), instead of making the dog do the entire contact piece again (which of course we know would be training in the ring). Then what happens is the dog sometimes "thinks" it hasn't done it the 2o2o correctlly, and will back itself up voluntarily and re-position itself on the contact - either way the dog has definitely left that contact which makes it a completed obstacle and then touches it again, making it an off course.

 

I know judges have to make decisions, very quickly and they do the best they can to be fair and consistent. I read a editorial a few months ago in Clean Run about blowing on your dogs face to get his attention on the table is considered training in the ring in most venues. I was surprised about that. Wouldn't clapping your hands also be considered training, same goal...to get your dog's attention? But I've never seen anyone called for that.

 

And isn't telling the dog what a good boy he is while you are running the course, training in the ring? Isn't tell your dog "good dog" on a contact training in the ring?

 

As an AAC Judge, I can call training in the ring - you get Eliminated and you have standard course time. I have no problem with a competitor training in the ring as long as you are nice to your dog. There are simply some things that can't be fixed anywhere else. Be a jerk to your dog however, and you are out of my ring for the rest of the weekend, and I will rake you over the coals.

[Rosanne]

Northof49 perhaps you've had great success with hoops, but I know plenty of people who've tried to use hoops and striders and props to teach a dog things, and most dogs that I've seen have learned very little from it. And that's just the point, that they're not on the contacts in the ring; most dogs figure out plenty of things that are different in the ring, and this is often one of them. I don't believe in "muscle memory" as such, I believe in teaching a behavior that the dog has to learn using his brain, and then working with the dog until it becomes a habit. But I want it to be a behavior that I can affect in the ring, not something I'm just hoping will continue to affect him. I've had great success with foot targets, and with Drifter's a-frame I did fade it away so he does essentially just run. I have another dog who is also learning a running a-frame who will never see a hoop, and a 3rd who I have trained to down on the ground now because she had a tendency to "pop" off I didn't stop her.

Different methods for different dogs, that's the way I think it should be.

But using hoops as the only method to me seems like saying "well I have wires on the weaves at home all the time but now I don't understand why my dog keeps popping out of the weaves at the trial!"

 

My first border collie could leap over the yellow and still go through the hoop! She was very talented!

 

Oh, and to me any contact where the dog was trained to keep moving is a running contact. I don't call it a running contact if the dog was trained to stop and the handler just happens to signal them to keep moving instead - I call that a quick-release.

 

 

ETA: I down my one dog all the time to re-direct her, as she's young and doesn't always pay enough attention. I've NEVER been called on training in the ring for it in USDAA. (haven't shown in AKC in a long time now) But it's quick- I say "lie down", she hits the deck and looks at me, I tell her where she SHOULD go and she goes.

[Lenajo]

I've also used the down in the ring to get a dog settled down and it was not considered training. USDAA...no idea about AKC

[Northof49]

Northof49 perhaps you've had great success with hoops, but I know plenty of people who've tried to use hoops and striders and props to teach a dog things, and most dogs that I've seen have learned very little from it. And that's just the point, that they're not on the contacts in the ring; most dogs figure out plenty of things that are different in the ring, and this is often one of them. I don't believe in "muscle memory" as such, I believe in teaching a behavior that the dog has to learn using his brain, and then working with the dog until it becomes a habit. But I want it to be a behavior that I can affect in the ring, not something I'm just hoping will continue to affect him. I've had great success with foot targets, and with Drifter's a-frame I did fade it away so he does essentially just run. I have another dog who is also learning a running a-frame who will never see a hoop, and a 3rd who I have trained to down on the ground now because she had a tendency to "pop" off I didn't stop her.

Different methods for different dogs, that's the way I think it should be.

But using hoops as the only method to me seems like saying "well I have wires on the weaves at home all the time but now I don't understand why my dog keeps popping out of the weaves at the trial!"

 

My first border collie could leap over the yellow and still go through the hoop! She was very talented!

 

Oh, and to me any contact where the dog was trained to keep moving is a running contact. I don't call it a running contact if the dog was trained to stop and the handler just happens to signal them to keep moving instead - I call that a quick-release.

ETA: I down my one dog all the time to re-direct her, as she's young and doesn't always pay enough attention. I've NEVER been called on training in the ring for it in USDAA. (haven't shown in AKC in a long time now) But it's quick- I say "lie down", she hits the deck and looks at me, I tell her where she SHOULD go and she goes.

 

Muscle memory gets developed from repetition. We train ourselves in muscle memory all the time just in everyday life. If you train a high headed dog with a hoop or something that keeps their head down over time on say the Aframe, then that will be their default behaviour on the Aframe. I have used hoops on lots of dogs, and not used them on lots of dogs, depending on the dog and on the handler. You want something to trigger a certain physical behaviour in an animal you are training. You use a foot target to get the physical behaviour you want - others use a nose target. I have seen lots of dogs fail in the ring because their targets are no longer there, but that is another training issue.

 

Personally, I don't continue to use any props once I have a consistent behaviour pattern in my own dogs, but then I make sure I have an extremely consistent behaviour pattern over a period of time before I consided that my dog is trained. Most people don't though. They do a half-assed job because they are impatient. How good trainers and serious competitors train their dogs can be quite different from the average agility competitor.

 

I never said hoops were the only way to train.

[Root Beer]

It's funny to me that having your dog "down" after a contact is considered training in the ring and is subject to penalty. It seems to me that the time lost in asking for this behavior should be penalty enough. Like others have pointed out - if that's training in the ring, then it would seem that a lot of other things that we do out there should be, too.

 

I understand the need for clear rules, and I'm all for them, but when they get ridiculously nitpicky, it does take the fun out of it and makes one want to move on and find another venue - sometimes even a new sport! That happened with me with APDT Rally. It got to where my dog couldn't be successful under their rules and I ended up moving on to a whole new sport!! It's kind of a shame.

[Lenajo]

I've downed my dog in the ring, between obstacles for 3 USDAA trials now (yeah, we're working on stuff) and of the 6 judges involved not one called me for training in the ring. And they were Q runs...so it's not like they were thinking "oh, at least let her get that dog under control, she's not going to Q anyway" LOL

[Geoffrey]

We use hoola hoops that have been cut apart, or we have a rectangle made out of small diameter PVC piping.

 

You state that he isn't inclined to go flying off contacts as long as you are careful. It sounds like you are babysitting him and you are responsible for making him do the contacts correctly. Ideally the dog should be taught how to execute equipment correctly and that it is his responsibility to do so, not the handler's. Once you are starting to compete at the higher levels, if it is USDAA or AKC, you are going to end up having to do distance contacts in gamblers, etc and that is going to be tough if you are responsible for making sure he hits his contacts. If he is 20+ feet away from you, you aren't there to babysit him.

Edited out part for length

One thing you have to realize is that re-training contacts is hardly ever successful, and you can't trial and re-train at the same time. Being that he is a Lab and they are very "frontend heavy" and you say he is kind of heavy boned, you have to decide if a 2o2o on the Aframe would be in his best interests.

 

In response to the bolded part - that's partially correct, and partially incorrect. I have to babysit the teeter currently, but none of the other obstacles. Our teeter issues stem from crappy and inconsistent lessons. Once he learned to tip the teeter himself, our various trainers never gave the actual performance criteria much thought. One trainer wanted a 4-on-the-contact (not the floor) performance, but they were telling me to slow him down over the contacts so he would walk into the yellow and stop. I don't want my dog walking down the dogwalk or A-frame, so I ignored them - especially since I didn't like their own dogs' performances. Currently he is still in the process of learning to perform the teeter independently (he's learning quickly though). I am just having to teach this by myself. I plan on taking some private lessons with some trainers from England who moved into the state recently - I am hoping they'll be able to help me tweak his performances and try and fill in the gaps that other trainers have neglected (this is my first agility dog, so until recently I was just going with what the supposed experts told me to do....until I realized they were substandard in many cases).

 

As for the A-frame - I don't like 2o2o A-frames. It might be fine for a lightly built dog, but I have a feeling it can't be too healthy for a 70lb topheavy lab to be doing. Knowing Zeke, he'd just end up face-planting.

[Shetlander]

Muscle memory gets developed from repetition. We train ourselves in muscle memory all the time just in everyday life. If you train a high headed dog with a hoop or something that keeps their head down over time on say the Aframe, then that will be their default behaviour on the Aframe.

 

Here is a perfect example of muscle memory: I had put down some grass seed and for some reason thought an 18 inch high wire fence around the 3 areas would signal to my shelties to stay out. This may have worked at first, but then the dogs started hopping over the fences as they frolicked around the backyard. After a few weeks, I decided to take the little fences down. Later I watched the two shelties play chase in the backyard and every time they got to one of the areas that had been fenced, they did graceful leaps as if the fence was still there and needed to be cleared. This went on for several minutes. Probably they were too busy to notice the change, and eventually they stopped leaping over nonexistent barriers. Still the muscle memory was definitely there at least briefly after just a few weeks.

 

 

I never said hoops were the only way to train.

 

If I recall, you merely disagreed with the statement that dogs don't learn anything from hoops.

[pammyd]

I dont know if this is a dumb question or something - starting proper agailty soon so I havent tried teaching any contact method yet

 

Can you not just teach your dog to touch the yellow bit? rather than all the control to make them stop at the end or lie down or whatever? teach them to target the different coloured bit?

They can see the difference cant they - and they are smart dogs

Something like teach to smack yellow with paw

Run along board and smack the yellow bit, and keep going

then extend it to obsticals

 

I was thinking along those lines when I trained Ben with the stairs - he can now run all the way down the stairs step on a small target and keep going

 

Am I being dumb here? is there lots of reasons this will not work??

As I say - new to the sport (worse than new, not started) but it seems to me to make sense - we want the dog to put a paw in the contact so why not teach them to do that?

[Rosanne]

I wasn't implying that you thought hoops were the only way to train.

 

But Shetlander, that isn't muscle memory either. See, wires are pretty much invisible to a dog at full speed so unless they stopped and made sure they weren't there, they're going to play it safe by jumping over them. I'm sure once they slowed down and checked it out, they stopped jumping. I don't consider that muscle memory at all. I think muscle memory is a very misleading term and too many people are convinced that if you just repeat something enough times the dog will magically behave that way forever after. Many dogs learn many behaviors in the ring that they never do at home. I used to run a dog who would bite me playfully in the ring. Wouldn't do it anywhere else. I see LOTS of dogs who have lovely perfect contacts at home, all the time, trained with whatever method, and yet they will jump in the ring. Lots of dogs run differently in the ring to begin with - the stress and excitement will cause them to go faster or slower, add strides or take them away. If a dog's only default behavior is to run down a contact, and he gets very excited, why shouldn't he lift his head and jump? And I've also seen several very fast BC's keep their heads and bodies down and still stride right over it. It happened in the Steeplechase Finals this year in the 26" class.

 

I fundamentally disagree with the popular notion of "muscle memory" because I've seen supposed training techniques involving it break down in the ring many times over the years. I also just don't think that habits you form at home apply during the excitement of trials. I try to teach my dogs with the thought in mind that they WILL be more excited at trials and therefore I want to have either a command to remind them with, or be able to compensate in some other way (even if its babysitting) so they don't start leaping off. I really don't know any competitive dogs that have been trained with hoops, but then I don't know Canadian dogs so if there are great Canadian dogs who were trained that way, please excuse my ignorance.

 

As far as Geoffrey goes: if what you're doing now is working consistently, at trials, I'd leave it alone. I agree that 2on2off is probably a bad idea for a heavy lab. Some dogs will hit the yellow on their own, most won't, just be prepared to train a behavior if something goes wrong, that's all.

[Rosanne]

Can you not just teach your dog to touch the yellow bit?

 

Well, yes, if it were that easy many trainers would be out of business, right?

 

Dogs can't see the full range of color. Some contacts they can tell the difference, some they can't. For instance green, yellow, and orange all appear to be shades of the same color for them. So a green/yellow a-frame looks very similar to a dog. An indigo one with yellow zones might be obvious, but there's too many different paint jobs out there.

 

But in general, dogs don't differentiate yellow very well. Ever throw an orange toy in the grass and wonder why they couldn't find it? It blends to them.

 

What you're describing with the stairs and a target is basically what we would call a foot target, and if you're consistent training with it you can certainly use that on the contact. Dogs can learn places very well, regardless of color. So the dog can easily learn a certain spot on the contact or the ground and step on it if you start out by putting his target there and then slowly taking it away and teaching him to hit that spot without it.

[Shetlander]

But Shetlander, that isn't muscle memory either. See, wires are pretty much invisible to a dog at full speed so unless they stopped and made sure they weren't there, they're going to play it safe by jumping over them. I'm sure once they slowed down and checked it out, they stopped jumping. I don't consider that muscle memory at all. I think muscle memory is a very misleading term and too many people are convinced that if you just repeat something enough times the dog will magically behave that way forever after.

 

Muscle memory is a vague term but one that describes behaviors humans or animals appear to do without thinking about it. I do consider my shelties jumping where the fences no longer were to be muscle memory. I agree they didn't know the fences weren't there but they still knew when to jump while going at warp speed. There was absolutely no hesitation in jumping as they raced around the yard. They weren't thinking about when to jump. They knew when to jump.

 

I didn't train them to jump the fences, obviously. That wasn't my point in putting the fences out in what was a wildly optimistic moment. I just noticed that for a brief period they kept jumping what was no longer out there. Of course once they noticed the hazard was gone, they stopped.

 

I don't think believing in muscle memory means you don't hold your dog to performance criteria, the clearer the better. I do think enough repetition with clear criteria makes it easier for the dog to perform reliably without needing to "think" a lot about it. But I bet we all agree on that.

 

Probably the best examples of what people consider muscle memory are typing, playing an instrument, driving a car -- after enough training and repetition.

[Rosanne]

I guess what I really don't like is the term and some of the old school thoughts behind it.

 

For instance back in the early 90's we used to think that if you put a cookie on the bottom of the contact all the time at home, the dog would get magic muscle memory and be fooled into always looking for it (and of course striding down towards the invisible cookie) at trials. That obviously didn't work.

 

I have nothing against using hoops as a secondary tool to help a dog who is having trouble with something, but in all my years of training I have never really seen a prop like a hoop, strider, etc really "teach" a dog anything. Sometimes a dog will learn something useful and apply it on their own but most dogs trained with only those props don't hit the contacts reliably at all. I know a couple people who use hoops just to keep their dogs from jumping onto the aframe too hard but that's just a safety thing. They aren't really trying to train anything with them.

 

I always want my dogs to apply their brains to learn a behavior, and to focus on the actual obstacle rather than any props, because if they are focusing props to learn a behavior then when the prop is gone the behavior will be too in most cases.

 

I still wouldn't call that muscle memory with your dogs and the wire, I'd call that reflex. Something like that wouldn't transfer to, say, your neighbors yard. And props don't transfer to new situations where they never were either (in my opinion).

 

I don't train like most people, but thought I'd share an opposing viewpoint. I very much try to train by getting inside my dogs' heads and trying to figure out how to get them understand a behavior, not just to do it. If they understand it, they are much less likely to fail in new situations.

[Shetlander]

I guess what I really don't like is the term and some of the old school thoughts behind it.

 

It's kind of like the term "drive." It means different things to different people. To some people it means nothing or has bad connotations.

 

I have nothing against using hoops as a secondary tool to help a dog who is having trouble with something, but in all my years of training I have never really seen a prop like a hoop, strider, etc really "teach" a dog anything. Sometimes a dog will learn something useful and apply it on their own but most dogs trained with only those props don't hit the contacts reliably at all.

 

But isn't that true of all training tools? If you don't establish clear criteria for what you want, get in lots of repetition in lots of places and fade out the tool, then I think it wouldn't work well for most dogs.

 

I always want my dogs to apply their brains to learn a behavior, and to focus on the actual obstacle rather than any props, because if they are focusing props to learn a behavior then when the prop is gone the behavior will be too in most cases.

 

If the "prop" was improperly utilized, yes. Props need to be used in more than one setting and faded out. I know lots of dogs who have very good, very reliable weaves who learned with wires. That method doesn't appeal to me at all but it still works for many dogs when done properly. The wires were faded appropriately so that the behavior transferred to all weaves.

 

I still wouldn't call that muscle memory with your dogs and the wire, I'd call that reflex. Something like that wouldn't transfer to, say, your neighbors yard.

 

Reflex/automatic/muscle memory. In my non-scientific eyes, those are all fairly interchangeable. Again, I didn't train, reinforce or in any way encourage the leaping. It was only in the spots where the fences had been. I wouldn't expect it to transfer to a spot where the fences had never been. But I still think for the brief period the shelties exhibited the behavior, it was muscle memory or reflex or automatic. And that is the start of what can become a reliable behavior with concurrent training. Nothing magical about it and yes, training is crucial otherwise you're right that the dog doesn't learn anything, just as my shelties didn't learn anything lasting from the little fences.

 

And props don't transfer to new situations where they never were either (in my opinion).

 

Not without training, lots of reps and fading the tool or target.

 

I don't train like most people, but thought I'd share an opposing viewpoint. I very much try to train by getting inside my dogs' heads and trying to figure out how to get them understand a behavior, not just to do it. If they understand it, they are much less likely to fail in new situations.

 

As a matter of fact, I've never trained with hoops. I used 1RTO for Quinn which I see as a very thinking method right from the start. That's one of the things I liked about it and the 2 x 2 method for weaves. I still see muscle memory/reflex happening with 1RTO. Just without any visual cues like a target or hoop.

[pammyd]

Well, yes, if it were that easy many trainers would be out of business, right?

 

Dogs can't see the full range of color. Some contacts they can tell the difference, some they can't. For instance green, yellow, and orange all appear to be shades of the same color for them. So a green/yellow a-frame looks very similar to a dog. An indigo one with yellow zones might be obvious, but there's too many different paint jobs out there.

 

But in general, dogs don't differentiate yellow very well. Ever throw an orange toy in the grass and wonder why they couldn't find it? It blends to them.

 

What you're describing with the stairs and a target is basically what we would call a foot target, and if you're consistent training with it you can certainly use that on the contact. Dogs can learn places very well, regardless of color. So the dog can easily learn a certain spot on the contact or the ground and step on it if you start out by putting his target there and then slowly taking it away and teaching him to hit that spot without it.

 

ahh thankyou that makes a lot of sense. was going to try and target him to post it notes and stick them on the contacts

 

Nice to hear about all the different methods though because I am sure different things work well for different dogs