Breaking a habit?

[Root Beer]

What Gypsy was doing was not "play" I think that is important to clarify. When you allow your dogs to make decisions as to "correcting" behavior of a strange dog you are setting them up to get in trouble, be it an injury, a bad experience, whatever, it is not their responsibility.

 

I don't really see it as a "responsibility". That might be a bit of anthropomorphizing in a way that doesn't really fit. Don't get me wrong - I anthropomorphize in some ways, too.

 

Let's take an example from my own pack. When Dean first came here, he had no dog manners whatsoever. The first time he wanted to play with Maddie, he bit her ear - hard! Instead of jumping in myself shouting "NO!" or anything like that, I took a minute and watched. Maddie turned away from him very deliberately. It was a correction. She was removing access to herself. A few minutes later, she allowed him to engage again and this time he mouthed her ear very softly. She then allowed their play to continue. These days the two of them mouth each other and play bitey-face all the time. Had I jumped in to "squash" the rude behavior and insist that he connect to me to avoid giving Maddie "responsibility" or "control", he would have missed out on a lesson that I am simply incapable of teaching a dog because I'm not a dog myself.

 

OK - I know we were talking about situations where the inappropriate dog is not a member of your own pack. But taking that example, say I were dog-sitting for a friend and the same thing happened. It's neither my, nor Maddie's, "responsibility" to teach the guest dog manners. But Maddie doesn't see it as a "responsibility" or not. It's simply natural dog-dog interaction. And it can be beneficial.

 

Of course, it has to be supervised. Of course, I wouldn't allow Maddie to play with a dog that was truly aggressive. And of course, I would not allow my dog to play freely with a dog whose owner was not willing to let the dogs interact naturally to a large extent. I have broken off dog play between my dog an another where the owner of the other dog is trying to micromanage the situation.

 

That doesn't mean it's a free-for-all any time my dogs are with other dogs. I step in where it's warranted. But I do recognize that they have a lot to learn from each other - some of which are things that they can only learn from each other.

 

You are also placing them in charge of the situation whereas you should be in charge. Just because it's worked in the past doesn't mean the "next time" something won't go wrong. You cannot predict how another dog will react to their "correction". I don't want people thinking that it's OK for someone else's dog to reprimand theirs or vice verse - it's not. It's up to the owner of said dog. As was said, this behavior got out of control and was not always there, up to Gypsy84 to now reel her back in, not another dog.

 

With a dog that was fearful or reactive or a true "bully", I would agree with this statement. With dogs of solid and appropriate temperament, however, I have simply not found allowing the dog to interact naturally with other dogs to be detrimental in any way - even when a bit of behavior modification takes place among the dogs.

 

Again, yes, the owner/handler of a dog needs to work on connection and responsiveness. A dog should be able to be called off of play. But at the same time, I can truly see having set-up social interaction between an inapproriate dog and an appropriate dog as a valid component of a training program for a dog with a behavior such as Gypsy's person described.

 

I don't understand the concept you both seem to be advocating.

 

It is something, I think, that you have to see in action to really understand. The more I try to explain, the more I find that it is difficult to explain without visual examples.

 

As was said before it allows and/or teaches one dog to be a "bully" though it may not happen all the time and the temperament may be stable it still effects them.

 

I disagree with this statement. I have seen no evidence of this among dogs with stable temperaments.

 

Do they really need the "hassle" of having to take care of the brats? No, they don't and they shouldn't be thrust into a situation by the person they "trust".

 

Again, I maintain that to some dogs this is not a hassle, nor is it a breach of trust. Just as there are some dogs that are naturally shy or social, there are some dogs that naturally interact well with the "brats".

 

And yes, when it is all said and done - the power they hold makes them "feel" good - but the winner of a dog fight also "feels good" (that's why when in doubt in my house they all get in trouble) and struts like a peacock.

 

That's definitely not what I'm talking about here. Again, I think you would need to see it in action because it is very clear that you have a set idea of what you think I mean and that it doesn't match up with the reality of what I'm trying to explain.

 

I am the leader, not a "chosen" one at any given moment. It's up to me to keep my dogs safe and secure, if it's the least bit questionable they are removed from the situation. It's not a valid training technique to set up dogs to fail, that's lack of leadership and training.

 

Again, what I am talking about is not setting the dog up to fail, nor is it a lack of leadership or training. In fact, this type of training is very specialized, and needs to be well led. Of course, that might mean giving the dogs a fair chance to interact naturally, but it doesn't mean just throwing caution to the wind, either.

 

Getting dogs out to socialize doesn't have to be in a chaotic "uncontrolled" environment; trails, PetSmart and places like that are much better then the free for all at dog parks. Personally, I don't want my dogs to interact with others, they hang with me, learn their manners and learn to disregard other dogs when we're out and about. If I allow them to run with others, they mind their manners and respect me when I say times up.

 

Well, we definitely agree about dog parks. I do personally choose, as the leader of my pack of dogs, to provide them with situations where they are allowed to play freely with other dogs on occasion, but not random dogs that happen to show up at a dog park.

 

For the most part, my dogs are just with me, too, but I am really glad that all four of them can be off leash comfortably and safely with other dogs, and that I have one that I can assist others with when their dogs need some dog-dog interaction to work through some issues. And that's not about giving my dog "control" or to "feel good" about being the "winner", but about something that I guess I can't explain in a way that can be understood without a visual.

 

If you're ever in Pa., I'd be happy to demo. Maddie would, too.

[Mojo]

I see both sides of the situation here, and this is what I wish to add to the discussion:

 

I think off-leash dog parks are good for: dogs who are 100% stable, and for dogs that need remedial socialization *if* they fall within a certain temperament range and have excellent, *established* bite inhibition. Jean Donaldson goes into quite a lot of detail describing which dogs are appropriate for off-leash dog parks and which are not in her great book, Fight!, which I highly recommend to everyone for the great behavioral insights it contains--even to those who have perfectly behaved dogs.

 

I don't think dog parks are very good for: puppies, dogs who do not yet have bite inhibition, overtly fearful dogs, dogs who are "bullies" and will seek out smaller/weaker dogs to torment, dogs who become overstimulated/overexcited by the very fact of playing and turn aggressive in the middle of playing, and dogs that have a poor recall, because the environment is not stable and is often too overwhelming.

 

My personal experience with both sides of the issue:

Godiva, 14.5 yo Bichon Frise: raised from a six-week-old puppy and purchased from a super, responsible breeder. She would comprise what I consider to be the perfect social dog. She has absolutely no fear issues, very confident/stable/resilient temperament, never has growled at another person or dog in her entire life, let alone tried to bite anyone/anything. Never went to an off-leash dog park until she was thirteen years old, because we found no need to take her, and are only now taking her because Mojo desperately needs to go (see below) and I don't like leaving her home alone now that she is ill. I was thirteen years old when I got her, so she had never been raised with toddler-sized children, per se, but her breeder had two 6- and 8-year-old daughters in the house. Regardless, Godiva has always had a particular innate fondness and gentle manner with babies and toddlers from the get-go. Thus, I strongly believe that breed and great genetics have a lot to do with this, in addition to good early socialization and nutrition even while she was in the womb. Throughout her life, she has happily greeted all people, children, and dogs of all shapes/sizes/colors while on-leash or off while walking down the sidewalk, walking in shops, going to friends' houses, "working" as a "greeter" of customers in my mom's store, etc., and this appeared to be sufficient socialization for her; essentially, we used to take her everywhere, including restaurants and to the theater, and it was hard to say if the chicken or the egg came first (i.e., stellar social behavior that encouraged us to take her out more and expose her further, or vice versa). Frankly, she couldn't care less if she sees other dogs or not, although if she does, she seems happy about it. If she never went to another dog park again, I don't think she would care whatsoever, and she does not get very excited as we are going, nor while she is there. The sound of dogs barking usually don't even make her turn her head (and she is not deaf).

 

Contrast the above to:

Mojo, Aussie/BC mix: rescued as an approx. 4-year-old stray. He is tremendously concerned about other dogs, and what they are doing. The distant sound of a faraway dog barking will awaken him from a deep sleep and send him rushing to the window to see if he can figure out what is going on. His greatest joy in life is going to off-leash dog parks, such that he begins to howl in joy at least half a mile away while we are still in the car. From that standpoint alone, he is a completely different dog than Godiva is with respect to what he considers to be important in life. I doubt he has any fear issues, and I believe all of his noisy barking/growling bravado originates from having an overly exuberant and pushy personality combined with highly unrefined social skills. He is a beta-type male who wishes he were dominant and is constantly vying for this position (i.e., overmarks other males' urination), but he takes reprimands from both people and dogs well once authority is established. We are very lucky in that he has *excellent* bite inhibition and a 100% recall with even a whispered "come," no matter what else is going on at the time. If off-leash dog parks did not exist, he probably would go insane, as he is leash-aggressive/reactive to all other dogs and certain people on the street, so walking him *anywhere* is extremely difficult, and because we are still training him, ALL leash sessions are training sessions, and by design, must often be brief before he becomes overstimulated or frustrated. Obviously, these leash sessions alone are not enough to meet his high exercise needs.

 

Thus, the only opportunity Mojo has to run free at top speed (other than in our own yard, where there are obviously no other dogs besides Godiva) is in an off-leash dog park (or at our private agility lessons, but he is not "free" to do whatever he wants, so to speak). Notably, Mojo is *not at all* off-leash aggressive, as aggressive as he seems when he is ON-leash. Thus, the dog park is the only place where he can RELAX around STRANGE dogs outside our family. From what I have read, on-leash aggression and off-leash friendliness is a common problem, and in fact, many of the dogs at the dog parks we frequent have similar issues. Obviously, I am not taking Mojo to the dog park because I think it would be "nice" for him to play for other dogs, but because I think it is absolutely necessary to his training: I strongly feel that giving him plentiful opportunities to relax around other strange dogs and even to play with them is a vital component of our long-term program of convincing him via clicker training that meeting strange dogs on the street while on-leash is the identical situation, so that one, amazing day, we could actually go for an on-leash walk or run in our neighborhood without making a scene. When I first got him, he did not believe that I actually WANTED him to approach other dogs...it took four or five months of nearly daily dog park visits before he would leave my side as we walked the perimeter of the park to approach other dogs more in the center of the field, and I believed this was out of a preexisting fear of being reprimanded for it. Once that barrier was gone, however, the floodgates were literally thrown wide open. Even now, however, he constantly checks in with me, and I can't walk far without Mojo breaking off whatever dog encounter in which he is ensconced to run to where I am of his own accord; thus, if I *want* him to play with a particular dog for any length of time, I have to stay put. I believe that Mojo has what Jean Donaldson calls the "Tarzan" complex, with the theory being that he is, at heart, an extremely friendly dog, but in his past, he was denied social contact with other dogs, and possibly even punished for desiring it; because of his particular temperament, this resulted in an adult who, when he sees another dog on-leash, goes completely ballistic growling/barking in anticipation of the past punishment, even though all he wants is to go see the other dog desperately. I have posted about this before in great detail, but I will just briefly say here that if the other leashed dog stands its ground, Mojo will eagerly rush up to the dog, and as soon as he arrives, he will CEASE all growling and barking and will start to wag his tail, sniff butts, and play-bow. Yes, other dogs seem to think he is totally crazy (just as one would a strange human who constantly yodeled his wants all the time and was too in-your-face--i.e., Tarzan). Thus, there would be no way to work on his public social skills without off-leash parks, since on-leash encounters are still currently quite awful, depending on the situation, as most oncoming people/dogs do *not* stand their ground when faced with a growling, snarling, barking, howling Mojo--and quite understandably, too.

 

I hesitate to make any recommendations for Gypsy since I don't know her personally, but I would venture to suggest that her owner try to get a better, absolutely instant recall-slash-leave-it command on her as well as better bite inhibition before she goes back to a public dog park so that other dogs are not in danger from her nips. You also run the risk of another dog who is bigger and more powerful than her becoming extremely peeved at her unwanted advances, and Gypsy herself may be injured. It sounds like she will definitely need a so-called "bombproof" dog to help her establish these new behaviors, which may be quite difficult to find--once again, I highly recommend Fight!, because Jean Donaldson expertly describes plans for training and what she considers to be appropriate dog-dog interactions between a dog in training and a dog in the trainer role much more eloquently than I can here. It is not exactly "letting the dogs decide to make the corrections," as a poster expressed above, but more that having a completely stable dog that can *withstand* the pushy attention of the dog in training without becoming fearful or aggressive him/herself is what will help teach the dog in training to calm down and behave appropriately, and all of this is with both dogs under close human supervision by their handlers. I am lucky that I have Godiva, but Mojo is thoroughly used to her, and now has trouble generalizing his deferent behavior with her to other dogs. I myself have been looking for "Feisty-Fido" (Patricia McConnell-style) classes in my area, and there is not a single class offered in all of Los Angeles county, but perhaps you will have more luck in your area.

 

In conclusion, I think dog parks are a necessity for those dogs that truly need them--sounds kind of trite, but I think it's true. As with anything, however, you have to use them at your own risk, because you never know who is going to be there. If at all possible, my only other suggestion would be to make friends with "regulars" at the park who seem to play well with Gypsy, and perhaps try to arrange it with their owners so that you all go to the park at the same time on regular days such that she will always have familiar dogs to be around, if actual "playdates" in a private home setting/yard cannot be arranged.

 

I hope that helps.

[Alaska]

Really interesting thread. I appreciate everyone's efforts to explain the logic behind their opinions.

 

Lisa: Regardless of which opinions you might agree with above, I think one common thread is that people feel you need to teach Gypsy that this behavior is never acceptable, at least with dogs outside her regular pack. At the same time, you need a better relationship with your dog so that she always chooses to respond to you, not just when there isn't something better going on.

 

You can't start training this in the highly charged atmosphere of a large pack of random dogs -- you need to be able to control the level of stimulation Gypsy is faced with, and you need to start at a very low level of stimulation. Example: one, very stable dog walking slowly by. Then maybe that same dog jogging past with their person. Gypsy is on leash. You correct at the first instant you see her starting to think about chasing. There is no long leash getting tangled in crowds of folks, because there are only two people and two dogs. Get Gypsy to the point that you can reward her for sitting quietly as the other dog goes by, faster and faster. Next work on Gypsy being allowed to move while the other dog goes by (and now you've changed the situation, so reduce something else, i.e. the other dog is back to walking), but still responding 100% to your recall, albeit a recall from a not very exciting stimulus. Then build up the level of the stimulus again.

 

You can do this kind of work at the dog park if there is a time and place where the park is empty. Talk to the people you've met at the park and see if someone is willing to work with you. There should be no risk to either dog because they are both on leash and both under the physical control of a human. The most important thing is that you are going to keep Gypsy "below threshold" at all times. The concept of allowing the dog to learn by keeping it below threshold is at the core of the Control Unleashed program. I really, really like this program, and I encourage you and almost anyone with a dog to get the book and check it out. You can buy it from Dogwise or Clean Run.

 

I understand the desire to want to let your dog play with unbridled abandon with other dogs. As creative as we humans might be in our interactions with our dogs, we just can't really match the kind of playmate another dog can be. Since I added a second BC to my family, I reflect nearly every day on how much their interaction has added to the quality of my first BC's life. But folks above have made an important point -- Gypsy needs to be playing with a familiar dog or dog pack, not a bunch of strangers. I'm not suggesting that you get another dog, but try to find a dog or two or three she can develop a longterm relationship with and do things with those dogs and their people rather than go to the dog park and take pot luck. I think you'll find that more rewarding for all involved.

[herdcentral]

I have a young ACD that started to exhibit the same behaviours as Gypsy at about 9 months old. I followed a similar path that Alaska suggests and it has take a lot of hard work. I actually dont believe that a busy dog park situation will ever be a suitable situation for this particular dog. This is an assessment that I have made of her temperament. She is much better around dogs that she knows and if there is any escalation of bad behaviour she goes straight onto the lead and play is over, no second chance.

 

She is very well behaved on leash in public, and for off leash exercise I take her to a more isolated area where she plays beautifully with my other 2 dogs.

 

My other 2 dogs another ACD and a BC are good in dog park situation as the ACD is a friendly, stable and gentle dog and on the whole ignores other dogs, she is only really interested in me. The BC is a social butterfly and very good at social interactions and enjoys the dog park situation. I still am not keen on dog parks as some dogs are just too rude and boistorous.

[PSmitty]

There are tons of other situations that offer far more to a dog's future behavior and life quality than a dog park.

 

Sometimes as primates, we got caught up in our need to play as adults, when canines, as adults, typically only play within their own pack. You can expand that pack beyond family borders, but an inconsistant, out of control (ime 99% of what goes into dog parks) group of strange adult dogs is not a normal situation to play in. Instead you get gang behaviors (reminiscent of any species containing unsupervised numbers of adolescents and young adults), social jostling, and dogs either have to fight/flee to avoid being bullied.

 

I couldn't agree with this more!

 

I'm still absorbing the rest of the posts, but this was too good to pass up. My hubby and I think that some of Jack's issues stem from the dog park. I could kick myself for ever taking him there. I was just so happy to have a dog that enjoyed it (unlike Lilly), that I thought it was great. I was so wrong, and maybe because of that, I *couldn't* take him to a dog park now, if I wanted to, without a fight. Luckily I saw the light (and learned a lot from a trainer friend and online), and when we got Alex, the thought never crossed our minds to take him there. No way, no how.

 

As for the tail and hock grabbing during chase games, my three do it to each other all the time. Constantly. But I wouldn't think it appropriate for dogs they don't know, nor would I allow it. Good for you, Lisa, for recognizing the issue and wanting to work through it. Good luck!

[MaggieDog]

Lol I don't particularly like dog parks myself so I find it quite amusing that what I've posted has been interpreted to somehow imply that I am a typical dog park user human who only goes because she thinks the dog will like it and ignores cues that that may not be the case. I *have* a dog that can only go into a dog park every once in a great while, and only under very strict circumstances. She hasn't been to a dog park in over a year and before that, probably about 3 years, bcause the one park I could find that works for her is in DC.

 

Z is a dog park dog - she likes going, is very socially adept, and generally fits smoothly - there's only been one or two situations when she got in over her head, one I stepped in and broke up and one I had to step in a bit late because of distance.

 

When at the park, I don't talk to other people much, I watch my dog like a hawk, and I keep an eye on all the dynamics around me. If I don't like something, I call Z to me and either leave or move. The park I use is small, but there has yet to be a fight, and only a few grumbly dogs (that Z avoids at all times). It is a nice population of reasonably careful individuals and it works well for us.

 

Around here this park is really the only place I feel safe socializing Z oddly enough - generally I am the first to say that dog parks are bad for socialization purposes, but ime here in SC 1.) People don't walk their dogs - I see *maybe* one dog a month on our two long walks a day, and maybe 1 dog a week on our two short walks in my apartment complex 2.) Dogs on leash around here are often dog-aggressive - of all the dogs in my complex that I see only 1 is one I'd trust around Z and Maggie hates her, the rest charge and snarl when they see my girls 3.) The people walking friendly dogs generally don't know how to handle intros properly - I refuse to let Z learn that running straight at another dog while pulling on leash is acceptable. The dog park has been the only place I've seen appropriate dog-dog interaction which has honestly surprised me *a lot* since my previous experiences have been the opposite.

 

Bottom line: I train dogs for a living, I've been observing my reactive dog for almost 8 years in both positive and negative reactions/situations, I've rehabbed Maggie from a dog that couldn't be within 15 feet of another dog to one that has several good dog friends and can be in a dog park w/o incident in certain circumstances, I know my dog's and my own capabilities, and I feel that my choice is one that will not harm my pup. If she turns dog reactive, feel free to tell me "I told you so".

[PSmitty]

Bottom line: I train dogs for a living, I've been observing my reactive dog for almost 8 years in both positive and negative reactions/situations, I've rehabbed Maggie from a dog that couldn't be within 15 feet of another dog to one that has several good dog friends and can be in a dog park w/o incident in certain circumstances, I know my dog's and my own capabilities, and I feel that my choice is one that will not harm my pup. If she turns dog reactive, feel free to tell me "I told you so".

 

I, in no way, meant to imply that your (or anyone else's) choice of taking a dog to the dog park means the dog will turn reactive. I was just sharing *my* experience and my feelings on the matter.

[Root Beer]

Lol I don't particularly like dog parks myself so I find it quite amusing that what I've posted has been interpreted to somehow imply that I am a typical dog park user human who only goes because she thinks the dog will like it and ignores cues that that may not be the case.

 

Ditto! I've actually never set foot in a dog park in my life, and I have no plans to. Off-leash dog camp is nothing like a dog park because the same dogs are there for the entire week. And the times when Maddie has worked with inappropriate dogs did not take place in dog parks.

 

Bottom line: I train dogs for a living, I've been observing my reactive dog for almost 8 years in both positive and negative reactions/situations, I've rehabbed Maggie from a dog that couldn't be within 15 feet of another dog to one that has several good dog friends and can be in a dog park w/o incident in certain circumstances, I know my dog's and my own capabilities, and I feel that my choice is one that will not harm my pup. If she turns dog reactive, feel free to tell me "I told you so".

 

Ditto, too, except I've only been at it for 6 years with my reactive guy!

 

That was very well said and it mirrors my view on the subject perfectly!

[MaggieDog]

Paula, I wasn't referring to any posts in particular, just the apparent assumption by some members that taking your dogs to dog parks is automatically a bad thing in any situation. I used to be of that opinion, but given Maggie's fabulous experiences last summer and Z and her personality, I've changed my position.

[HighDesertSpice]

For those of you who've had success working your reactive into dog parks, what were your big learnings? I'm not against dog parks....rather I love them. So does spice girl. But for reactives, it feels quite risky. We have some very good, light traffic, dog parks and if i could work Reactive Dog into the park setting, i would like to do so.

[MaryP]

If she turns dog reactive, feel free to tell me "I told you so".

 

This is really starting to get OT and for that, I apologize. But, I have to say, that even if your dog did end up being dog reactive some day, I, for one, would never say "I told you so."

 

I have only skimmed parts of this thread because it's pretty long. But, I must say that I have changed my thoughts a bit on reactive dogs since adopting Skittles. Skittles was only ever socialized with dogs that I knew (friends' dogs) and fosters that came through the house. Everyone got along and Skittles loved playing with all the dogs. When he was older and neutered, he started going to day care for half days twice a week. The woman who runs the day care is a friend of mine and a dog trainer. She screens all dogs before they are allowed to go to day care and no aggressive dogs or bullies are tolerated. I would say that Skittles' experiences with socializing with other dogs have been pretty positive. With all this, Skittles still ended up being dog-reactive (on leash only). I don't think we can always assume that we, as pet owners, are solely responsible for how our dogs turn out. Certainly, we play a big role, but just because a dog ends up with some behavioral issue, I don't think it's fair to automatically jump to the conclusion it must be the owner's fault that the dog is that way.

 

In this situation, I agree that the behavior is not appropriate and can be redirected. I had a foster dog like this a few months back. I even posted about him on these boards looking for advice. He was way too rough with the other dogs and I was afraid that he was going to hurt them. So, he was simply not allowed to play with them or interact with them until he learned proper behavior around other dogs. I worked with him to get him interested in a ball instead. I used tennis balls at first, but he popped them in a matter of minutes. So, I switched to harder balls, like a soft ball, or a hard rubber ball. Once he learned to focus on the ball, I reintroduced him to the other dogs. If I saw that he was about to chase down a dog, I called him and got him back focused on the ball. He always had that ball in his mouth when he was around the other dogs. It worked well with him because he took to it quite easily. But, I could see it not working so well with a dog that is just not that interested in balls. In that case, I'd look for something else that the dog might like.

[Geoffrey]

I've never been to a dog park (mainly because there isn't one, but also because none of my dogs would enjoy it in the least).

 

But I thought I would chime in for a moment....

 

The examples from each side of the discussion don't match up, IMO. Lenajo and Journey seem to be talking about their dislike of using one dog to teach another not to be exhibit rude/offensive/obnoxious behaviors. RB and Maggiedog seem to be talking about using one dog to teach another better play-manners. To me there's a difference between rude tail biting and over-exhuberance. Nipping and biting another dog's tail or hocks etc is not a play invitation or a play thing IME - it's just one dog being rude and impulsive towards another.

 

My overdramatized analogy -

 

My human example would be kid A (pretend it's Gypsy) getting excited and punching kid B (the other dog) on impulse. If you allow Kid B to teach Kid A not to punch it seems like teaching "you punch me and I'll punch you back - so you better not punch me again." That's a situation where an intermediary needs to step in....

 

That situation is different, IMO, from say... Kid A playing too rough and Kid B getting upset about it. In that situation the kids (aka. dogs in this example) can work it out - no hard feelings.

 

My examples rest on the fact that biting and pulling tails isn't considered play by most dogs - it's rude. A dog who did that to my Lucy would probably be bloodied pretty fast. Lucy isn't a dog who has issues with other dogs - she lets puppies and even my 70lb Zeke bounce all over her. But she knows the difference between exhuberant play and obnoxious behavior.

 

 

ETA: I didn't have time to read the entire thread, since I am in the midst of studying for two exams that I have tomorrow morning - so if I have the wrong end of the stick, I apologize in advance.

[Root Beer]

My overdramatized analogy -

 

My human example would be kid A (pretend it's Gypsy) getting excited and punching kid B (the other dog) on impulse. If you allow Kid B to teach Kid A not to punch it seems like teaching "you punch me and I'll punch you back - so you better not punch me again." That's a situation where an intermediary needs to step in....

 

That situation is different, IMO, from say... Kid A playing too rough and Kid B getting upset about it. In that situation the kids (aka. dogs in this example) can work it out - no hard feelings.

 

My examples rest on the fact that biting and pulling tails isn't considered play by most dogs - it's rude. A dog who did that to my Lucy would probably be bloodied pretty fast. Lucy isn't a dog who has issues with other dogs - she lets puppies and even my 70lb Zeke bounce all over her. But she knows the difference between exhuberant play and obnoxious behavior.

ETA: I didn't have time to read the entire thread, since I am in the midst of studying for two exams that I have tomorrow morning - so if I have the wrong end of the stick, I apologize in advance.

 

The difference is this: in your example, both the kid and the parent, or adult in charge of the child at the time, are human beings. Yes, they are human beings in different stage of development, but both belong to the same species and the lesson for the child occurs through human speech, which is understood to some degree. The child might not understand a statement such as, "if you hit anyone again, you will not play video games for an entire month", completely, but he or she will understand it enough to be capable of obeying or taking the consequences and learning the lesson that the consequences contain.

 

In this case, the question is of a human teaching a dog to be more appropriate with other dogs. The point that I was trying (poorly, I gather) is that there is a point in training a dog to be more appropriate with other dogs where it could be much more effective to bring in another dog to give a lesson to a member of it's same species that a human can only teach in a limited way simply because we are not dogs.

 

A human using a correction may or may not communicate to the dog that his or her behavior is inappropriate, but he or she may also unintentionally communicate that interaction with other dogs at all is punishable, or that if the dog is in play, he or she had better watch out because the handler might come along at any moment and randomly make a correction.

 

Another dog, on the other hand, might have the ability to be very clear. This could be through stopping play when the other dog acts inappropriately. I've seen that happen. Or it could be through a verbal or body-language type warning. I've seen that, as well. We humans can try to mimic that, although I personally choose not to try to communicate with my dog by trying to act like a dog, but in the end it is not the same as two dogs interacting.

 

That's not to say I would throw the inappropriate dog in with another dog willy-nilly, nor that this step of the training program would be all that I would do, but in cases where dog-dog behavior is problematic in some way, I personally prefer to incorporate interaction with a dog that has the ability to communicate appropriate behavior to an inappropriate dog into that program to enhance the effectiveness of the program at large.

[Geoffrey]

I see what you mean - but my analogy wasn't based on verbal interaction. I was thinking more along the line of Kid A hits Kid B - Kid A gets put in time out/sent to his/her room/toy taken away etc. The parent/intermediary will probably speak to the kid and tell them what they did was wrong, but the kid would know it was wrong anyway - based on the cues the intermediary is giving off.

 

I never responded well to verbal warnings - maybe that's why a) I was a terrible child and my analogy doesn't work

[herdcentral]

For those of you who've had success working your reactive into dog parks, what were your big learnings? I'm not against dog parks....rather I love them. So does spice girl. But for reactives, it feels quite risky. We have some very good, light traffic, dog parks and if i could work Reactive Dog into the park setting, i would like to do so.

 

 

My learning is to go when dog traffic is light. Take plenty of treats and keep at a distance from other dogs where the reactive dog is not reacting. Keep an eye out for unleashed rude young dogs that make a dash for the reactive dog. I turn on my heel and run if neccesary in the other direction while keeping the ractive dog focussed on me. This is where a strong obedience heel is valuable.

 

If there is a calm socially adept dog and the owner is amenable, I will walk the reactive dog close all the time keeping an eye on body language and using treats clicker whatever. Break off the encounter while it is going well. Dont be tempted to push the encounter in case it goes pear shaped and undoes all the good work (been down this track).

 

Keep the reactive dog focussed - I like to to obedience routines which my dog finds calming. Maybe just sit on the grass and relax with your dog - depends on the dogs temperament - mine is a high action type and likes to keep moving.

 

Keep the sessions short and slowly intensify the ecounters at the dogs own pace. Some dogs will never have a suitable temperament for a dog park situation and you will eventually need to recognise if your dog is one of these.

 

Reactive dog under threshold and high value treats and dont rush. One step at a time - Be a splitter not a lumper.

[HighDesertSpice]

Thanks HerdCentral.....

 

Oreo is a boy on the move.

 

What do you mean by this?

Be a splitter not a lumper.

Keep distance between the dogs? As in walk between them, et al, when needed?

 

My other goal for him is to be able to trust him in other offleash scenarios....walks, hikes, et al. So far, I'm playing around with long leads...they're ok, but not my preferred. And otherwise, letting him off leash, but as soon as I'm aware of another dog in the distance, we leash up, and keep a good distance. Avoiding the young rude dogs is a challenge however, but he does respond to a "look at that" (click - treat) routine. If anything else comes to mind, please let me know. It is easier to keep focus with him than with some dogs, in that his interest in balls, for example, can sometimes outweigh his focus on other dogs. That said, this is with work on my part of course.

[herdcentral]

I like to split behaviour into small chunks so my dog always succeeds. By lumping you might try and get your dog to meet another dog right up close right away instead of getting your dog comfortable at a distance and over time with lots of positive reinforcement finally acheiving a successful up close encounter.

 

I can now let my dog off leash at a closer distance if I have her frisbee or ball. In fact if the strange dog is small and socially adept I can let my dog off leash with this dog if I am throwing her frisbee. I first let the strange dog integrate while she is on her lead and then as she gets used to the idea and calms down, I let her off lead and throw the frisbee. As long as the strange dog doesnt try and jump on her she is okay. I wouldnt try this with a dog that wants to engage with her. This is when the unacceptable nipping and chasing starts.

 

This situation doesnt occur very often I might add as most strange dogs want to engage. I wouldnt trust her off lead in all but controlled situations at this point in time.

 

I have also found it handy to have my older stable dog around in this situation as she gets on with all dogs and this seems to calm my reactive dog.

 

At obedience classes I can now sit her off lead in a line up when we do the 3 minute off leash sit stay as she is intensely focussed on me and has become very familiar with the dogs in the class, who are all totally stable in their sit stays. I wouldnt enter her in a trial though as this would be too much.

 

It is a continual process of hard work. My other 2 dogs are wonderful off lead with other dogs but they have both got very different temperaments right from puppyhood to my reactive girl, so I suspect I am also battling against genetics.

[gypsy84]

This thread has really gone OT, here's an update from someone with a "young rude dog"

 

We went to the DP today, it's exam week right now -- spent the entire weekend studying for a microbiology exam yesterday at 6:00-9:00pm, got 2 hours of sleep last night and stayed up studying for a genetics exam today at 9:00am.. But finally I have a tiny break before my next exams on Thurs and Fri so I decided to take advantage of it and work with Gypsy a bit.

 

We walked around on our own for a bit. I got a stick and was getting Gypsy used to carrying it around with her. I don't think I'd really want to bring one of her good toys to the dog park because it would definitely get stolen by other dogs or lost or something. She was doing surprisingly well at holding onto the stick, and was even interested in playing fetch - usually all she cares about is the other dogs.

 

A dog came running by and she took off after it, and although she had the intense "tail-grabbing" look, the stick stopped her from nipping. Until she dropped it So I told her "quit", and then when she didn't I called her off and put her on the leash. Took her away from all the other dogs (there weren't that many but we had sort of been walking a circuit with them) and played fetch on our own for a while. We worked on some tricks for a bit, and then once she was calm and focused we started walking again. I got her carrying the stick, and the same thing happened again - worked well until she dropped it and then started going after another dog. So I called her off and made a big fuss, acted *VERY* dissapointed and told her that "quit means QUIT!" put her on her leash and promptly left the park.

 

I think with a bit more time and practice, holding onto something will just become habit for her instead of nipping other dogs. She already improved vastly just from today - although it might not seem like it. I might also see if I can find a cheap rope or something I'm willing to sacrifice to the dog park.. I think she'd like playing with tug rope a bit more than hanging on to a stick.

 

Thanks again for all the advice, we'll keep working on it

[herdcentral]

This thread has really gone OT, here's an update from someone with a "young rude dog"

 

 

Not really, I think a few of us are dealing with rude young dogs - mine being one of them!

 

Just different ways of dealing with them according to the dogs temperament and our own training experiences. I think the important thing is not to let them practice this behaviour at all, not even once, otherwise the behavior becomes self rewarding and entrenched and more difficult to fix. Teaching your dog to focus on her rope or something she finds more rewarding than nipping and chasing is good.

[Journey]

This thread has really gone OT, here's an update from someone with a "young rude dog"

 

Yes, well you know how things go

 

A dog came running by and she took off after it, and although she had the intense "tail-grabbing" look, the stick stopped her from nipping. Until she dropped it So I told her "quit", and then when she didn't I called her off and put her on the leash. Took her away from all the other dogs (there weren't that many but we had sort of been walking a circuit with them) and played fetch on our own for a while. We worked on some tricks for a bit, and then once she was calm and focused we started walking again. I got her carrying the stick, and the same thing happened again - worked well until she dropped it and then started going after another dog. So I called her off and made a big fuss, acted *VERY* dissapointed and told her that "quit means QUIT!" put her on her leash and promptly left the park.

 

Nice start here! Glad something in her mouth is helping. Mind a few suggestions? Get rid of the stick, take it from someone who has a dog that punctured his soft palette with one.....

 

Also, you have to be the best game in town. If you took her away and "fussed" at her you're no fun and she may not come as readily the next time. So, simply call her once and then be quiet. Walk her down (this takes loads of patience), unless she is in danger, and then take her collar and walk back-wards to where you called her from originally, you're holding both sides of her neck with the collar and quietly saying your "come" word. When you get there praise her to no end! Cut her loose again and play with her w/o other dogs around, then clip her and leave. It's a fine line. You have to follow through though, if you call her and she disregards and you walk toward and then she responds, you still have to take the collar and walk back wards to where the call off was made. IOW, you have to follow thru and not threaten because she came "after" she saw you coming her way. Wrong decision on her part and you need to keep it clear that one call is all she gets ...clear as mud? But you don't want to take her away, fuss and then leave imo. Leaves a bad taste with her and you want her to be with you - you have to be the best game in town, not necessarily the party patrol.

 

I think with a bit more time and practice, holding onto something will just become habit for her instead of nipping other dogs. She already improved vastly just from today - although it might not seem like it. I might also see if I can find a cheap rope or something I'm willing to sacrifice to the dog park.. I think she'd like playing with tug rope a bit more than hanging on to a stick.

 

Thanks again for all the advice, we'll keep working on it

 

 

Good luck to you both and yes, I agree, a rope toy would be a better choice!

[HighDesertSpice]

This thread has really gone OT, here's an update from someone with a "young rude dog" ....

 

Can't tell if you're joking....are you? Or do you think this is really OT? (O bother, Pooh said).

[HighDesertSpice]

I like to split behaviour into small chunks so my dog always succeeds.

 

Thanks, HerdCentral:

 

What a great catchphrase! I'll keep it in mind. Actually, i have done much of what you describe...taking it slowly. My *has a few bad habits to break* boy is learning through extinction, opposite behaviors (must be a catchphrase for that too) and as you say, breaking it up and taking it slowly. Thanks!

[gypsy84]

Nice start here! Glad something in her mouth is helping. Mind a few suggestions? Get rid of the stick, take it from someone who has a dog that punctured his soft palette with one.....

 

Yikes No more sticks then! I made a "rope" out of a bunch of old mis-matched socks and I don't care it that gets ripped or dirty so it can be her dog park toy. I definitely don't want her getting hurt by a stick but it was just handy the other day and didn't even thing that it might be dangerous.

 

Also, you have to be the best game in town. If you took her away and "fussed" at her you're no fun and she may not come as readily the next time. So, simply call her once and then be quiet. Walk her down (this takes loads of patience), unless she is in danger, and then take her collar and walk back-wards to where you called her from originally, you're holding both sides of her neck with the collar and quietly saying your "come" word. When you get there praise her to no end! Cut her loose again and play with her w/o other dogs around, then clip her and leave. It's a fine line. You have to follow through though, if you call her and she disregards and you walk toward and then she responds, you still have to take the collar and walk back wards to where the call off was made. IOW, you have to follow thru and not threaten because she came "after" she saw you coming her way. Wrong decision on her part and you need to keep it clear that one call is all she gets ...clear as mud? But you don't want to take her away, fuss and then leave imo. Leaves a bad taste with her and you want her to be with you - you have to be the best game in town, not necessarily the party patrol.

 

I'm not so much worried about her recall, we've worked long and hard on that and she is now 100% consistent. On the other hand, I wouldn't really want to take the chance of messing it up. We have a bit more trouble with the "best game in town" bit though... She'd rather play with other dogs than play with me, even though she will stop playing to come to me when I call her. She is not really a toy motivated dog though, what could I do to get her really interested in toys?

 

Anyways, we went back again today. There was only 1 other dog there - an aggressive BC that snapped at Gypsy as soon as she walked up to it. So we just walked around on our own away from that dog, and worked on her carrying the rope. She really couldn't care less about playing or the rope, she just wanted to sniff yellow snow and kept dropping the sock-rope ever few feet when she caught a new smell.

 

Can't tell if you're joking....are you? Or do you think this is really OT? (O bother, Pooh said).

 

Of course I'm joking! Well, not about the thread going OT, but it's interesting to read about anyways

[zenotri]

An interesting thread. I haven't read through all the replies but here are some of my thoughts

 

If you don't want her to chase other dogs (and who would?), you really need to make sure she doesn't get the opportunity to do it. Even allowing her to do it once or twice each visit is going to limit your progress.

 

I agree that you have to be more interesting than the other dogs & toys/games are a great way to do this. I would probably do a heap of work on her with toys at home before you take it to the park. Make sure she is really switched on to them so as not to give her the opportunity to find something else more interesting. It would be hard for her to keep her attention on you for something she only has moderate drive for. I would build this drive first & then use it at the park.

 

Are you planning on doing agility/obed/sheepwork with her in the future? IMO, allowing this behaviour to continue at all is going to make training in a trainers or club environment much, much harder.

 

I don't go to dogs parks much. I do a heap of training with my guys at home & clubs to give them all the exercise & stimulation they need. I find they get all the "dog play" the want here at home in our pack. I don't allow them to play at training with other dogs since we are there to train, not be distracted by other dogs, and especially not at dog parks where strange dogs are unknown quantities. On the occasion we do go to a dog park, I play with them. They are generally uninterested in other dogs (other than a few they know well) and I like it that way. I don't think BC's in general play well with other breeds, nor do I think they "need" it. I would worry that they would get hurt either in an altercation or by being slammed by a heavier & more boisterous dog.

 

JMO & sorry if I am repeating what anyone else has said.