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Okay, need some advice here. Had a fight on Sunday, and another last night. It seems to happen when I am either on the phone, or distracted, and I think it has to do with space issues. Last night, it was near the chair where Lucy lays when I am in that room. I ended up on the floor, grabbing each one, and trying to pull them apart- the last fight when I got them apart, they went back at it. Anyway, at one point Lucy had Nikke's hair, and was pulling her across the floor- I ended up prying her jaws open, and got them apart, and put lucy in a crate- she was happy to go in. There was no damage, but it is extremely ... I don't know what the words are. Nikke is the type that when she fights, she will put holes in a dog, but she doesn't really start them. Lucy is a space guarder, and apparently when you put those two together, it's like flint. I don't know what to do. I am getting injured in all this- because I care not one iota about anything but stopping it. Again, no damage to either, but MAN when they are into it, they are into it. I need suggestions on how to change the tenor of things- and how to pre-set things so when I am distracted, things don't get out of hand.

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You've got my sympathy, I've delt w/ interbitch aggression and it's not easy at all to treat. If it were me, my first step would be management to prevent fights (crate or otherwise separate when you're on the phone/distracted) and a strong "Nothing in Life is Free" Program. Be aware the interbitch aggression often does not ever resolve, it's just managed, and depending on the dogs it may escalate.

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I need suggestions on how to change the tenor of things- and how to pre-set things so when I am distracted, things don't get out of hand.

 

I've never dealt with bitch on bitch, just stupid boys. However, the stupid boys' stupid behavior has gotten dangerous at times. This last spring I had to really crack down on Quinn and the Lhasa. In fact, I seriously looked into rehoming the Lhasa who I feel would be much happier as an only dog. However, that would be a little like Ransom of Red Chief and I couldn't find a home I thought would give him the limits he needed while not becoming abusive.

 

Fortunately, I've been pretty successful in reducing the tension by really getting on both their cases. My obedience instructor helped me realize that I needed to let them know in no uncertain terms that there were no openings for moving up in rank by enacting zero tolerance for posturing. This means they get corrected for even a hard look and certainly for curling lips or snarking. The corrections are quiet, controlled and nonviolent, but I'm sure controversial. Time outs are also used in serious cases (snarking). If both dogs are involved in some sort of confrontation, regardless of who I think "started it," they both get corrected. I also correct for humping. In other words, it's very black and white on what I won't accept.

 

My dogs will also "take advantage" of when I'm on the phone or otherwise distracted. In those cases, I would separate them first since I knew the danger potential. Currently, knock wood, they are doing quite well and corrections are few and far in between (mainly the Lhasa). They'll never be best friends. They'd be quite happy to never see each other again. But they tolerate each other and once in a while play briefly, though always under my close supervision.

 

The instructor also recommended doing long downs with all the dogs nightly but I haven't been good about that. Basically, I needed to really establish what I, as the leader would and would not tolerate. It's worked wonders. Again, though, this is with boys. But boys who were headed towards tragedy.

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I have 3 bitches, all spayed. We have the most fights, when the youngest at the time, was getting near the 1 year old age.

 

Zoe, 3, and Ari, 2, went at it almost daily for about 2 weeks then it slacked off to nothing. Now Kya, 11 months, is starting.

It's not as often as it was with the other two. She only goes at Zoe though.

 

I have a spray bottle of water on my hip at all times. I never would have thought the water would have helped but it does. I spray then grab for a tail and step in between them. Then they both go into separate rooms and the doors are closed.

 

I don't talk or look at them when I let them out for at least a half hour. They know I am angry and I will not put up with fighting.

 

There are warning signs and I'm getting really good at defusing the situation before it even starts. I hate seeing them fight and I know what you are going through. I hope it all ends soon, for both of us.

 

ETA, for me I know they tend to go at each other more when the weather has been bad and we haven't been out running as much. Could that be part of your problem?

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The title of the thread was certainly interesting, but the content was not what I anticipated. It reminded me of the time I read "Of Human Bondage"; the title was promising, but the book was not at all about what I expected... :rolleyes:

 

(Yes, I know, Dixie Girl; go to my cage...)

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I have mostly bitches, but a couple I call "ultra-bitches". My bitches generally get along, and I can manage them by just being "in charge" and giving "time outs" for misbehaving. Any posturing, lip curling, hard staring earns temporary separation. The "ultra-bitch's" aggression toward each other is mostly resource guarding of ME - but I've come to the conclusion that they truly just do not like each other - in fact, I think they would do serious physical damage to each other if left alone. They even posture when they pass each others' kennels. At first, they were fine when I wasn't part of the picture, but they have gotten into trouble in the yard, when one just brushed against the other, or one wouldn't back away from the other's stare. Now, they are managed so that they are not permitted to get into it. They do not go outside together, they are not loose in the house together. One is always kenneled or outside when the other is inside. Watch for the subtle signs before they escalate - staring, lip curling, tenseness, tail position, ear position. Try to defuse it before it happens. When you can't be watching, separate them.

Laurie

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Watch for the subtle signs before they escalate - staring, lip curling, tenseness, tail position, ear position. Try to defuse it before it happens. When you can't be watching, separate them.

This is great advice, and the practice I follow. When I am not in the house, they are either in separate rooms (blocked by gates that don't allow access across the gate) or in crates. After I moved for a time I allowed one the run of the house while the other dogs were crated. It took me a while to figure out why the crated bitch had always dumped her water and torn up her bedding--the other bitch (the one loose), despite having the whole house in which to roam, chose to harrass the crated bitch through the door of the crate. Now both are crated when I leave, and in a configuration that does not allow them to see the other dog in its crate. I also had to change the crate configuration in my van so that the two do not ride side-by-side as they will snark then too. Last, if I am traveling, these two retirees generally stay home. Often I will send one to stay with my neighbor just so my partner doesn't have to deal with the two of them or risk making a mistake that results in a full-blown fight (so far they've never gotten past the posturing and snapping fly-by stage, and they've been together with me about 5 years, but I've managed them carefully all that time).

 

J.

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I know this does not help with preventing the fights but could be useful in helping break them up. I used to have this problem occaisionally and water did nothing to break them up. A signal horn busted those girls up instantly. I kept several horns stashed in convenient places indoors and out. It prevented us from getting anymore injuries. Christmas day in the ER getting stitches was no fun.

 

MB

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Again, no damage to either, but MAN when they are into it, they are into it. I need suggestions on how to change the tenor of things- and how to pre-set things so when I am distracted, things don't get out of hand.

 

Actually it sounds like the male on male I used to deal with and what Dixie Girl was/is dealing with.

 

Someone said it already but tossing a glass of water on their heads does wonders as does a penny can. If you have a can in about every room, you can shake it at the first inkling of trouble, that worked here "if" I was quick enough.

 

Good luck, been there done that and have throttled a couple of dogs in the process :rolleyes: Jealousy, territory, confidence.....and they do bite the hand that feeds them when they are mixing it up!

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The thing is- I see no posturing before- it is literally BOOM - game on. When I do see any sort of look, etc, I correct the one doing it.

Well, if that's true then I'd just keep them separated. It's amazing how much subtle communication can be going on between two seemingly motionless dogs- especially if you (the human) are distracted by other things. You could just be missing the signs. Also, it's not necessarily the one you perceive as the aggressor that is instigating it. When my ultra-bitches get into it everybody pays the price of my displeasure -no one is "innocent". It takes two to tango, as they say. Laurie

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The thing is- I see no posturing before- it is literally BOOM - game on. When I do see any sort of look, etc, I correct the one doing it.

 

 

I doubt it will be anything very obvious - it may be a lip curl, an ear twitch, something so subtle that you have to really look for it. Especially since it escalates so quickly.

 

Karen

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I sympathize, Julie. Although Taz and Craig have had only one bad fight, they don't like each other and there is tension between them. Craig is top dog, as far as I can see. The tension began when he moved in and often nipped Taz while Taz was trying to play. I do not allow this, obviously, and put Craig away when the other two are playing in the yard. Taz has also modified his behavior somewhat when Craig starts that nonsense to be very still and not present a (moving, which is what Craig seeks) target. Sometimes, though, Craig will sneak a nip in. This has also resulted in Taz lifting a lip when Craig passes him in the house. Craig also resource guards me when he is right next to me on the couch and Taz comes up to say hi. Craig snaps. This has only happened a few times, but I crated Craig each time it happened. I didn't punish Taz. Should I punish both during such altercations? It really seems as though Craig starts it, though Taz has understandably become defensive...

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"I am getting injured in all this- because I care not one iota about anything but stopping it."

 

I have known people who got seriously injured breaking up dog fights - including one man who lost the bottom half his thumb when his own dog bit it off, trying to get at the other dog.

 

Not to tell you your business, but you should care about the possibility of getting badly bitten by your own dogs.

 

If I break up a fight, I do it at the back end- by getting dogs at the tail or hind legs. I never grab collars. I also remember that it I have hold of one dog, that dog can still be getting bit by the other dog, so I grab the dog that is harder to control by voice.

 

Don't get bit off while breaking up a fight.

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If I were you I'd have a can or two of Direct Stop on hand. I have never used it, but I have been told it is extremely effective.

 

Solo and Fly sometimes snark at each other. I exercise zero tolerance for any agonistic contact, although I do not interfere with normal status-related stuff. Solo is the top dog, so he gets stuff first, the toys are his, etc. and Fly defers 99.99% of the time, being a born second banana. Still, I don't let him do gratuitous things, like leaving a bully stick tantalizingly right in front of Fly's face and then growling every time she glances at it (a trick he would love to play constantly if he were allowed), and I don't let him manhandle her. Sometimes she deserves it -- she'll jump on his bad hip or something -- but still.

 

Of course, I'm not dealing with bitch-bitch aggression here, which I understand is a whole nother can of worms.

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I had 2 like that. The 3 girls had developed their "pecking order" and the 4th one arrived. Poor Migraine was last in line and accepted it, but when Faith- the 5th one- grew taller and larger than little Migraine, she tried to move up a step. That's' when it got "fun"-not. They'd do fine when all together, but NOT with the 2 of them alone. I had to keep their nighttime kennels at different ends. It was a lose/lose situation. And yes...........Bam- it comes out of nowhere sometimes.

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No experience with interdog aggression at home, but I have a thought to consider, or maybe a question for those who have some experience with this problem.

 

There are training techniques available to modify the behavior of dogs who display interdog aggression in public. I'm wondering if you could use some of these methods to defuse tension at home? For example, could you use counter conditioning to make the dogs associate each other with good things? Relaxation protocols to teach them to relax and ignore each other's presence? My experience with these methods is in the context of helping an uncertain dog learn how to deal appropriately with unfamiliar situations, which is definitely different from what you're talking about, and that's why I'm posing this as a question rather than a suggestion.

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There is not always "posturing." I've dealt with bitch aggression that is very subtle. It can be as simple as looking at the other bitch with the head slightly lowered but eyes straight ahead and eyebrows raised. It can be a bitch walking away and looking over her shoulder just so. It can be looking at the other bitch while exaggerating how much she is enjoying something (like a yummy bone, soft bed, etc) in an attempt to make her jealous.

 

Sometimes when I wanted to just chill and not worry about the dogs I put the bitches in separate rooms, otherwise I was always managing them. As others have said, it means telling them to cut it out when they even start looking at each other funny and not letting it escalate.

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Another useful tool for breaking up fights is a metal dog dish, particularly if you have hardwood floors. Chuck it hard at the ground near them, or rap it against something hard...its a sound not many dogs can ignore, and speaking from the unfortunate days working at the doggie daycare, a dish pan chucked at the feet of quarreling or posturing dogs diffused the situation right quick, as well as kept other dogs from joining in.

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Alaska,

If I had to guess I'd say that the interdog aggression in public and interpack aggression are two different things. In the pack, the bitches are fighting because they want to be, as Melanie would say, "top banana." It's normal dog pack behavior. In my specific case I combined two dogs who had lived in different locations and were both top dog in those homes. So I had two alpha females suddenly residing together. Now there's a younger bitch who would like to challenge both the older bitches, so I have three snarking at one another on various occasions. I don't think that dogs who behave aggressively toward strange/unknown dogs are responding to the same dynamics, and so I don't know if training techniques that work for the latter would work for the former. The fact is that most of the time, my bitches can coexist just fine--we don't have constant snarking here, but they do test one another at times (don't get me wrong--it's daily, just not constant--two of the bitches that don't get along are lying quietly here in the computer room with me at the moment). What I mean is that they can be in close proximity, say, all in the TV room with me and ignoring one another, lying near one another, etc., and be fine. Then if we get up to put them outside or something, one will do something to trigger another. And yet like I've said in previous posts, they can all take walks together as a pack, they all eat in close proximity to one another in the kitchen, they can all hang out in the yard together without my fearing major fights breaking out. I guess that's my long, convoluted way of saying that it's not constant aggression and therefore it would be much more difficult to reward for nonaggression, since the latter is more the norm. Does that make sense? It's just that when fights do break out--and it can happen in an instant as others have noted--it can get ugly very quickly.

 

J.

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I tend to agree with Julie, regarding managing your existing issues. It is hard to give advice when I don't actually see what is going on.

 

It seems bitches are more concerned with pack leadership than males are, so bitch fights are way more common. Most are due to jealousy, and seem to be in a situation where a mostly or full grown bitch is added to an existing pack. I guess the only advice I can give is what an old friend told me once. She was a Rottie breeder, and her dogs were huge, upwards of 120 pounds each. She said to remind every dog that although they might be fighting for pack position, SHE was the head bitch, and nobody better get into it in her presence. Also, she was a big believer in keeping them separated and out of sight of each other when she wasn't present to control things. It is amazing how they can stir each other up, just looking across a room at each other from different crates. If left alone together, you have no idea what is going on unless you need to take them to get stitched up.

 

I have never had a serious issue although I have 5 bitches, since I usually get my dogs as puppies. They grow up being told they are pond scum, and I guess they believe it until the Queen no longer rules.

Marilyn

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