MrSnappy Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 It's been a long time since I've weaned pups. Last night at dinner time, a couple of the pups tried to get into Mona's bowl with her. And this morning one of them was trying to taste her lamb neck. Does this mean they are ready to start trying food on their own? I intend to wean them straight on to raw, but they seem so young still. I am pretty sure Wick's litter was about 4 weeks when they started eating "food." These guys are three weeks old tomorrow. Too young? And I can deworm them now, right? RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 I weaned mine on a mix of puppy formula and canned Evo. The little wolves couldn't get enough of it. The first time I offered it they were barely 3 weeks old and had been trying to eat out of Freya's dish. By 4.5 weeks old nursing seemed more like supplemental food for them. Yes, you can worm them now. Oh, and a question for you... Where are the pics of the little monsters? We want to see them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 They really need to stick to milk for another week if you can. If you start feeding too early Mom's milk supply will slack off. She should be peaking at 4 weeks. I start straight to raw too. We usually pureed skinned chicken necks with goats milk (as fresh and raw as you can get it). They get necks and wings to gnaw on some too, but they aren't very effective. It does dull their sharp teeth down some so Mom will let them nurse longer. By 5 weeks they are eating the better part of a chicken back each in one meal, pureed meat/necks/a touch of vegetable matter in another, lather, rinse, repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 They really need to stick to milk for another week if you can. If you start feeding too early Mom's milk supply will slack off. She should be peaking at 4 weeks. Tell that to Freya. I think she peaked at 2 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted November 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 I am quite happy for her milk supply to slack off, as the sooner they are weaned, the faster Mona can find her own home!! However, the resources I consulted all suggest that as long as the pups continue to nurse, Mona will continue to produce milk and that most people start offering food at 3-4 weeks. Three weeks seems so early to me though! Anyway, goats milk and pre-ground raw is what I intend to do and I guess I will begin this weekend a bit and see what they do. With Wick's litter, wings were the first 'whole' I offered as well. Oh boy. Liz, oodles of photos are on my blog and there are some on the photo gallery section here as well. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 It's better for the pups if the get that perfect nature made stuff for a little longer though. I don't think any major research has been done in dogs, but in the human mammel if you put the little ones on food too soon you increase the stress on their immune systems and increase their risk of food allergies. It makes a lot of sense, but of course it isn't "dog" research... If the mom won't make it, that's one thing...and you can't let them starve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 My limited experience: at 3 weeks, the little buggers were looking for a little more than just mom, so I began to supplement. I started with some plain rice cereal mixed with Esbilac, then gradually (over the course of a week) added some regular puppy food (ground and mixed in). That was before I fed raw. Next time, I would again start with the cereal, as it is really bland, but would add ground raw mixed in instead of the puppy food. Either way, they do still need mama's milk, but seem to get fuller on something a bit more solid. I think of the solid as a supplement to mama's milk. Riddle was more than happy to continue nursing, although by the time they were 5 weeks old, I was limiting it, and by 6 weeks, pretty much cut them off. But if I put her in the Xpen with them, she would still let them nurse. In fact, she would still have nursed them when they left at 8 weeks if I had let her. Guess she liked being a mom, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 If you want to feed raw, why start with rice or the fake stuff? They digest goats milk and meat so much better than Esbilac in my experience. And the sugary carbs provided by rice just feed parasites. I've had vastly less need to deworm pups when I stopped doing that. Coccidia is endemic here, but since I made sure the pups got no grain from the start I no longer have to treat as other breeders do. Why would you restrict a dam from nursing her pups? I hear a lot of breeders doing that and I just don't understand. Guess she liked being a mom, I hope so. It's a pita what other breeds deal with because they breed from lines that have to be forced to breed and mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouBC Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Sully's puppies were trying to eat her food at about 3-4 weeks, so we went ahead and started letting them have some "puppy mush" of their own. They took right to it. I've never weaned to raw, since I don't feed raw, so I can't really advise on that one. But just because the puppies are getting their own food didn't stop them from nursing still. Sully's gradually gotten less patient with it until now, at about 6 weeks, she just keeps on moving most of the time instead of letting them latch on for long. They're now pretty much entirely getting their sustenance from the puppy food instead of mom, and they're eating it dry instead of mush. I think 3.5-4 weeks is a pretty good time to at least start offering the pups some food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 I found the dams regulate it very well themselves if allowed. Some were done by 6-7 weeks, others like Lena were still permitting the occassional sip at 10 weeks. She was particularily motherly, and genuinely enjoyed her puppies - playing with them and coming to get them to go with her to look at things in the yard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouBC Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Sully loves her pups and is still playing with them and leading the little pack. I think she's just gotten bored with having to stay home and not having much adult dog company, so she's wanting to be on the move instead of hanging around and letting them snack all the time. Can't blame her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted November 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Why would you restrict a dam from nursing her pups? I hear a lot of breeders doing that and I just don't understand. I don't know about other people, but for me - my situation is NOT ideal for puppies. I took them because they were in need, and I'll do the best job I can, but the less time they are here the better it is for everyone, and that includes my sanity. My vet will not spay Mona until her pups have been weaned for 4 weeks, and I don't want Mona here for another 2.5 months. She'll be with the pups until I split them up at 8 weeks and move them into other foster homes / adopt them out, but I'd like her to stop nursing them as soon as she can so she can dry up and I can get her spayed and out the door. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Why would you restrict a dam from nursing her pups? I hear a lot of breeders doing that and I just don't understand. I really don't have a good answer (or even a bad one, I guess for that one). I suppose because all the books, etc. say that at 6 weeks, the pups are pretty much done nursing/should be weaned. I found the dams regulate it very well themselves if allowed. Some were done by 6-7 weeks, others like Lena were still permitting the occassional sip at 10 weeks. If we have another litter, I'll try letting Riddle decide what she wants to do, and when she wants to quit...except for the ones heading out the door at 8 weeks--they'll get cut off then, for sure! I guess I hadn't really thought much about the rice, etc., but I think you make a good point. If and when the time comes, I'll look into doing it differently. So the first solid you feed the pups is goat's milk and ground raw? Bone, too? Or just the meat? At what point do you introduce other meats besides chicken? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 RDM I start offering a gruel of ground kibble soaked in warm water at 3 wks. I've tried milk replacer and found it upset stomachs. They eat very little at this age, mostly mouth it and are still nursing heavily off mom who is a heavy milker. However, they are getting into mom's kibble and mouthing it....that usually my sign to start them on gruel. By 4 wks they are eating with more gusto and I am still soaking ground kibble but leaving it a bit coarser and more texture. They are growing teeth and mom is devoted, still nursing them regularly but feeling hassled. Now they are nearly 5 wks and ravenous for solids. I'm still soaking kibble but leave more texture. They mob mom and she visits regularly to nurse but is harried and needs to escape....her teats are sore from needle sharp teeth. Mom's weight has been fine to plump as she's been eating 6+ cups at day of Innova Evo. At nearly 5 wks I am beginning to taper down her food because her weight is very good, she's weaning the pups herself and in 2+ wks the pups will begin leaving. I can't say I agree that this is the time for heaviest milking....I don't want to have to worry about mastitis (I check her daily for inflamation and treat scratches) and want to start drying her off for when the pups leave. I have a setup where she can visit the pups to nurse or leave them....she visits but no longer stays very long. She is beginning to push pups away and correct them when she's done nursing. When the pups finally figure out how to escape their barriers and pursue her (ie she can't get a break), then I will begin to kennel her separately but let her out several times a day to visit and nurse her pups if she wants (and she usually does). The pups are quite fat. That's what I'm doing....it worked well for me before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted November 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Well, I did not get a chance to get Goat's Milk this afternoon and had planned to get it tonight after dinner and start them on "food" tomorrow at breakfast. However, this evening they were all in Mona's bowl eating straight ground chicken. Miraculous. Poor Mona couldn't even get her face in her own bowl. Amazing how they go from mild interest to eating in 24 hours! RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn T Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 I hate to ask a silly question, but if all the pups are going to other homes soon, why even bother with raw diet? They will most likely get kibble at their new homes, and making a switch like that from raw to kibble, could certainly upset their systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyTerry Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Marilyn's question was a most logical question. I don't want to get into a raw versus kibble debate, but feeding the kibble (gruel as Elizabeth does) would be the easiest and best solution for RDM, the puppies and the new owners. Pups have thrived on this method for numerous years. If RDM planned on keeping all the pups, then since she prefers raw, she should feed raw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seelie Fey Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Irrelevant Opinion Alert! FWIW I think she should feed the puppies whatever she believes is most healthy for them in the situation they are currently in, rather than trying to second guess what the eventual adopters would feed. Every dog owner I know has a different strategy or favored brand of kibble or home made recipie or raw percentage for feeding their dogs. Inevitably, whatever she feeds them, most or all of the puppies will have to endure the stress of a transition in feeding philosophies - why not deliver them into that transition as healthy and well fed as possible? End irrelevant Opinion Alert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted November 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Actually, lots of the puppies we raise go on to raw fed homes. It's not a requirement of adoption, certainly, but we do tell people the benefits of raw and some or even many of them choose to continue with the diet, or already feed raw and are happy to adopt raw fed puppies who are already on the diet. To say that they will "most likely get kibble" at their new homes is an assumption that isn't fair to make, since you do not know who the new homes will be. And even if they go on to kibble fed homes, they make the transition easily. ALL fosters in my home eat raw when they come here, because that's what I feed so that's what they eat. Many of them were kibble fed when they came to me and some will go back to kibble when they leave. It doesn't hurt them. In addition to my personal feeding philosophies, there are practical reasons for it as well. Raw fed pups eliminate less and less frequently, they drink less water and pee less frequently - and these are BOTH important things in my home, which is very very small. I have found it easier to housebreak raw fed pups. The last litter I weaned onto raw was extraordinarily healthy and I expect these ones will be the same. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn T Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Valid reasoning. Thanks for your explanation. Just curious again... to ensure maximum chance of balanced nutrition for the puppy phase... what exactly is the diet you will be giving them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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