pace at the fetch

[kelpiegirl]

Okay, those of you who have pushy dogs on the fetch- how did you address it? I have tried downing her, but it just doesn't work- she will down, but then get up and run to catch up. She lifts and then her usual mode is to speed up once they take off (read- gallop), but I have been requiring her to NOT speed up- trot works, because she can do a nice clip, and stay with them. I tell you, it is extremely nicer to have the sheep come to me at not a running pace- but will this take away the dog's cover? Or will it teach her that she can be in control just behind them- will it help with driving? If only I wasn't such a neophyte, and afraid of wrecking my dog...

[Bill Fosher]

The place to work on this, as with most problems, is up close. Send her on a little outrun and stop her. Don't let her get up. Let the sheep get away. Don't let her get up. Walk directly up to her, while continuing to enforce that she must stay put. When you get to her, give her a little scratch or pat and some praise, then set her up and send her to get the sheep. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

After she gets it into her skull that you want her to stay down until you tell her to get up, then you can start working on pace -- a calm walk up followed by a down if she's going into overdrive. When she eventually tries moving at a nice pace, tell her "steady" or "time" or whatever command you want to use to slow her down without stopping, and eventually it will click.

 

By the way, this is a nice problem to have to work on. As I've said elsewhere, I want a dog where I have to keep my foot on the brake, and what you're doing at this stage is installing the brake pedal.

 

Another sort of counterintuitive thing is that I like to work on this in the largest open area I can muster. I think that round pens and small fields tend to speed sheep and dogs up. It also helps to have heavy sheep for this training.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Bill

Thanks so much- I wonder though, how demotivating that might be for her? She doesn't rush in on the lift- she is actually, calm, slow if anything, and nice- if that's an acceptable description Anyway, it is ONCE they start to run to me, that she kicks it in. Several times last training, I was able to keep her at a trot through the start of the outrun. Gotta remind her- what I say is "don't!" and she slows down. Is this cool? I just don't want to completely remove her zest. She is quite a covering dog, and like you, I want a dog who really has that pep. Uh, btw, I do work in a big area- our favorite place

[Wendy V]

I think Jeannie Weaver addressed this problem recently in the expert column.

 

I've been working on pace with my young dogs a bit differently than Bill. Like Bill, I work close at hand but instead of stopping the dog, I attempt to get the dog to gear down by using my voice, usually saying "Time, take time", or "steady now" as they are coming into the lift and just after. To reinforce the voice, I have outstretched arms (which also helps to keep the sheep in front of me), and I hold my ground untill the dog gears down. Once the dog slows up, I either step back a bit (release of pressure)and/or pivot to change balance once again to repeat the exercise. The dog may require a down at first, or use an emphatic "lie!" to get it to check it's speed but not to down it. Once the dog understands and response to this exercise, one can increase distance gradually.

 

This exercise is beautiful because it gets the dog working the sheep in an intelligent manner while taking body/balance cues from the handler, keeping the sheep balanced between you and the dog. It is also a precursor to the shed and can be used to steady sheep before turning the post. One can also open up flanks, if need be. Most of this type of work is seen in Derek Scrimgeor's training CD's. Derek's methods teaches pace to young dogs from the very beginning of it's training. It sure beats running up a field.

[stockdogtta]

My two cents of one way I teach my dogs to slow down- I say EASY -or what ever command you use- then DOWN my dogs and as soon as they down I immediately tell them Walk up. Eventually they start slowing down anticipating the down command which eventually you dont have to use-just the EASY command to slow them down.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What Bill says I think addresses the core of what's going on most. She's putting some pressure on them even when getting up from a down, and then she feels she has to catch up, and it's a big endless cycle.

 

Driving/off balance work helps this a whole lot. She might be bored with fetching - if she lifts nicely then she's got good instincts, you just need to tell her to keep those in gear even when things are not interesting.

 

Remember that if she "bumps" the sheep when she gets up, she is already in running mode and you have to correct that. That gets back to what Wendy said about putting pressure on them with voice and body. And getting her to respond to the sequence of easy/down/walk up correctly is super important. If the dog doesn't respond to "easy", then it's "lie down", then back up again on walk up - but watch for the "bump" - then I'd scold a little bit and go back to "lie down/walk" again. The message is, "do it right and you get to work."

 

It helps to have sheep that don't bolt around, particularly to you, when working on this. It's really hard for a dog to resist getting sucked into the rush, rush, rush if the sheep run all the time. Trust me on this one.

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks everyone. Worked again today- she has a nice lift. I have to realize that I can't have a perfect dog, and I have to just work at the weak spots. So far, she is laying off them at the fetch, and when I tell her to stop, she goes back to a trot- though she resembles a harness racing horse It is hard- like you say Rebecca. My girl, I love her- she goes out for her sheep with such enthusiasm, and intent, even when we do things like having to interrupt if too tight. She was in fine form this morning- grabbing grass as she layed down- and just had that LOOK in her eye- and doing only a half down- she had her elbows down, butt up. This girl needs her own big flock- seriously.

[Bill Fosher]

I misinterpreted what was going on. I thought we were off to the races right from the get go. I would stop her *before* the rushing starts, but let her walk in if she'll do it sensibly. The trick is to recognize when the sensible walk up turns into a Dukes of Hazzard scene and stop her just before it does.

[TotallyTerry]

There is a line in your post that troubles me, "grabbing grass when she layed down". This is generally a sign of a dog that is too stressed out. Without seeing the situation, the dog could be stressing out from putting too much pressure on her or being confused as to what you want from her. This is her way of relieving stress.

 

Does she do this often when she downs and when you are working her?

[kelpiegirl]

Hi

She was doing this when downed- and she wanted up. She doesn't ususally do this, but this morning, she was very FULL on, and she probably was buggared up about having to stay down. I will watch this and see if she does this again- but she has been known to chomp on grass off sheep too. Maybe she is emulating the sheep?

 

ETA- I am kidding on the emulating the sheep thing....

 

There is a line in your post that troubles me, "grabbing grass when she layed down". This is generally a sign of a dog that is too stressed out. Without seeing the situation, the dog could be stressing out from putting too much pressure on her or being confused as to what you want from her. This is her way of relieving stress.

 

Does she do this often when she downs and when you are working her?

[Wendy V]

Do not walk the dog up until the butt is on the ground. Wait until she is mentally in "neutral" before giving her the sheep. Scott Glenn always says that a down is not a stay, so don't expect it to be. However, a "stay" exercise could be worked in up close and might allow the dog to develop some patience and self-control. Also, try to pace your dog at a walk, or a relaxed trot, depending upon the size and natural tendancies of your dog. Keep an idea in your mind of what the correct pace should look like and work to get it.

 

Also be sure that you are not tensed, but relaxed, giving the walk-up or flank commands in a very soft voice. Use hard voice for downs and take time. I find that the young dogs like to set the pace of the training (quick, quick, quick!) and that I have to stop and take a few breathes and relax to reset the pace of training to my own preference.

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks everyone. I think part of her hyped-ness was my fault- I sort of bought into it- I plead temp insanity on that... She now has me acting like her- that is very scary!!! Pace, is a beautiful thing. I know it when I see it, and it is such a very good attribute- we will be trying to get there!

[kelpiegirl]

dbl post

[Pipedream Farm]

I teach "time" while balancing. Once the dog knows how to stay on balance I change the balance point very slowly teaching them "time" in much the same way one would teach the flank commands. At the same time I make sure the dog maintains the correct distance off the sheep. I then work on "time" while wearing and then move onto the fetch and driving.

 

Mark

[stockdogranch]

If I have one that is too pushy on sheep (by that I mean a dog who has slowed down and is walking, but just has such a power walk that I can't stay on my side of the sheep), I put it on cattle. Cattle move more slowly and are just more intimidating, and that seems to help a pup understand the need to back off a bit. Once they begin to understand, I will then often switch back and forth between sheep and cattle,

A