Hi I'm new (and a question)

[GoldenKiwi]

Hi everyone!

 

I live in Australia and was offered a dog about a month ago. The owner was tired of his behaviour and I am training to be a behaviourist. I told her I wasnt in a position to HAVE a dog but would take him for a while and train him. I figured I can learn a lot too. Especially since he is a BC.

 

His name is Jasper and he is two years old. He spent most of his day tied up as he tended to chase their horses and chickens. From what the owner had said, I expected some sort of neuroses in his behaviour. He is however the most incredible, affectionate and quick dog. I am so impressed and he seems to impact on everyone he meets.

 

I have now had him six days.

 

When I got him home he picked up the recall within an hour and its getting more and more reliable. He has sit, down, heel, drop and come fairly sussed. We are getting some chickens on Saturday and I will start working on those issues.

 

I may need some help from those of you who are far more experienced than I. There is one problem I just dont know how to deal with.

 

He will whine outside the door for ages, Im sure he was let in occasionally at his old house but surely not this often. We have set up a routine where he is out till it gets dark then he comes in and sits on a mat in the living room near us. He must stay on the mat, and he does. Except last night he started whining while on the mat too. We have ALWAYS ignored the whine, I'm not sure if it is just time or if he is still getting some form of reinforcement for the behaviour.

 

 

What do you think I should do about the whining?

 

Thanks in advance, and you'll probably hear more from me in the near future

[WyoBC]

He's a very nice looking dog. So is he yours then? or are you still just training him?

 

I guess I'm confused on why he can't come in with you durning the day, and when he is why he has to stay on a mat? That seems awful hard for him to stay on only that mat all night. I would guess he's whineing because he wants to be up and around with you. BC's are very people friendly. They to be with their people as much as possible. I call mine my little black and white shadow, because he's always right behind me everywhere I go.

[MrSnappy]

What do you think I should do about the whining?

 

How about .... let him get up off the mat?

 

What is the purpose for making him lie on a mat all the time? He's probably whining because it's boring, and makes him feel uncomfortable and no dog should be forced to perform a long down for hours at a time. I guess I just don't understand why his indoor life has to be so regimented. It's one thing to not allow him on the furniture, or keep him out of certain rooms, but I would argue that making him stay on a little square blanket for hours at a time is just a little unfair.

 

As for the whining outside, he's probably bored there too.

 

RDM

[Dixie_Girl]

No advice for you, but as social with the family as mine are, I would think he is just lonely and wanting to be with his people. Mine are like shadows with me.

 

Welcome to the board!

[Dixie_Girl]

Guess we were all typing AND on the same page, at the same time!

[WyoBC]

I guess so. Wow, we must have been like 10 seconds apart

[Aquarius89]

And he must stay on the mat becauseee..... ? Dogs are social creatures. They want and NEED to people with (their) people. Being a behaviourlist, shouldn't you know this?

[OurBoys]

Not only is he probably bored, I would go a step further and say he's feeling rejection. Look at it this way, dogs are pack animals. When you took him in, he probably thought he was going to be joining another pack. He's worked hard to fit in by doing what the pack leader (you) have asked him to do. At the end of the day, he still is not considered a member of the pack. When everything is said and done, he's sent away, not allowed to feel a part of something.

[Beth G]

I couldn't have said it better myself. But I still don't understand the "mat" thing? Why does he need to stay on a mat??

 

He is a BC and it is very hard for them to stay still as it is. But then to throw in a mat, and expect them to not move off of it for hours at a time... it does seem a little cruel to me. Even if he was to get enough exercise everyday.

[katherinelynne]

My dogs would go insane if I made them stay outside all day and then put them on a mat when they were allowed in. I know not everyone does things the same way but our animals are as much a part of our family as anyone of us are.

My bc's are so affectionate and want to be with us. It breaks my heart to think how lonely this guy must be.

[PENNSTER]

My dogs would go crazy if they could not join the family, even my Foster baby is included with us at all times. I can understand why that poor baby is crying.

[Heppers80]

Why oh why do people get border collies if they expect them to sit in the same place all the time!!

 

Daisy would go nuts!! She is my shadow also and if she isnt there I worry!

 

They are very sociable creatures and crave love and attention. He is probably just wanting to please you and given the chance you may well see just how loving and eager to please these dogs are!

 

Give him a break and let him off the mat and surround him with love, cuddles and attention! x

[PSmitty]

Ditto RDM and Brenda. I'm sorry, but that's just strange and unreasonable expectations for the poor dog. I'm sorry to be harsh, but just what kind of life is it for a dog to be outside all day and only let in at dark to be made to sit on a little mat? Of course he's going to whine, he's bored, lonely and feeling rejected, I'd wager. Where's the love, affection, interaction, fun? Since you're training him, is that all you think he needs? Dogs need so much more.

 

And damn it, he's gorgeous, too.

[Eileen Stein]

Hi, GoldenKiwi, welcome to the Boards. Great looking dog you've got there.

 

Except last night he started whining while on the mat too. We have ALWAYS ignored the whine, I'm not sure if it is just time or if he is still getting some form of reinforcement for the behaviour.

 

Look at it this way. If you are very sad, you might cry. If you were a kid, you would almost certainly cry. You don't need reinforcement from someone to cry when you're sad, you just do. Even if no one reinforces you for it, you will still cry, because you're sad.

 

I think he wants to interact with you, and is feeling sad and frustrated because he can't. He probably doesn't even know he's whining. It is just an unconscious manifestation of his feelings.

[BustopherJones]

Lay? Sit? Stay? What do these strange words mean? I wouldn't know; Annie is a perpetual motion machine who wants to play or snuggle from wake-up time to bedtime. I can't even imagine trying to get her to stay quietly in one place for more that 5 seconds at a time, if it doesn't involve being in physical contact with one of us; she may decide to rest quietly on her rug every once in a while, but we let that be her choice, rather than through enforcement and discipline. And because we accommodate her desire to be active, she is (according to our vet) a happy, healthy, well-adjusted dog.

[GoldenKiwi]

Well thanks for the help. Our house is a rental and he is not allowed to be inside and he wont be allowed inside when he goes back to his owner in a month. So I dont want to change things as he will end up even more confused than he is.

 

Trust me, if he were my own dog, things would be done very differently. I am well aware of the natural behaviours of dogs thank you, it is true that is a part of my training.

 

Is there a way I can make him happier or more confident dog sitting three metres away as opposed to on my feet??

[PSmitty]

Poor dog.

 

ETA: Is he allowed to have toys or chew bones? How about giving him something that might occupy his time and mind? I really don't know that it will help all that much, since he craves companionship, but hopefully it might.

[PSmitty]

Actually, since the owner offered the dog to you, it sounds like he didn't want the dog in the first place. If that's the case, and you can't keep him, either, how about rehoming him? Finding him a place where he might have a different, happier life?

[ShoresDog]

When he goes home to his owner, will he be with other dogs, or will he be expected to stay outside alone? Will he live in a kennel, be chained, or be expected to be loose and not do anything? Will he ever be allowed inside his owner's home? What does the owner plan to do with him? For what purpose did he get him, and why does he want to keep him?

 

It would help to understand the situation a bit better.

 

And welcome to the boards! I hope you can get your own BC one day. But don't, until you can keep him the way you want to (and probably know you ought to!).

[Olivia]

Is there a reason the mat can't move three meters to your feet if that would make him happier? I would venture that instead of a mat to sit on why don't you use a leash, umbilical method, so that he can't wander off to do anything naughty? Or you could use baby gates to keep him in the living room so he can move around but, again, not wander off. That would make him feel more included and happier!

 

As for how to stop whining...in this situation I don't know. I agree with Elaine...he is just crying because he is sad about being isolated, even though he is in the same room with you.

 

Olivia

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Paula. If the original owner wants to give him away (per your first post) and you can't keep him because of your circumstances, why not find him a home that wants him and can keep him in a manner that's more appropriate for him? Even if you work with him for a month, when he goes back to the same old situation he was in before then he's likely to revert to old behaviors. Why not find him a better situation? Does New Zeland have border collie rescues? If so, and you don't feel confident in finding him a new home, perhaps you can contact a rescue for help. I imagine if the owner offered him to you in the first place, she would be amenable to you placing him in a more appropriate situation.

 

J.

[MaryP]

Ouch. That was painful to read. My heart aches for that dog. I also think that rehoming him would be a good solution for both the owner and the dog. He sounds like a really great dog and probably wouldn't have any behavioral issues if he could be in a home that welcomes him as part of the family. It sounds like the training is going well. Now all he needs is some love.

[Eileen Stein]

I guess I'm thinking along the lines of the other responders. You raise two issues -- (1) he won't be allowed in the house when he goes back to his owner and so you don't want him to be confused, and (2) your house is a rental and you're not allowed to have him inside.

 

(1) If the owner no longer wants him, why should he have to go back to that situation? Maybe you (possibly with the help of a rescue) could find him a home where he would be more wanted, and then everyone would be happy. Even if he did have to go back, I don't really see why having him inside the house now and their not letting him in the house later would do any harm. If they don't let him in the house then, well, he will have to stay outside then. But dogs live in the moment, and he will just quickly realise that he doesn't get to go inside there, whereas he does get to go inside with you. If he got fed nothing but spoiled scraps by his regular owner, would you feel you couldn't feed him good food now because he would be going back to the spoiled scraps?

 

(2) It sounds like you can cheat a little bit on your landlord's rule that you can't have dogs in the house, since you are bringing him in. Maybe the only concern is that he mustn't do any damage? If that's so, then you could at least let him come over to you or move around when you're there to watch him. If you really feel you can't, then perhaps you could (1) go over to sit by his mat and play with him when you see him looking at you and not whining, (2) give him a stuffed kong or something else that would provide him something interesting to do for a while, or (3) put him in a crate, so he isn't having to constantly fight his impulses to seek you out. Maybe you could spend some time outside with him too -- he may be whining at the door as much in hopes that you will come out as that you will let him in. (I'm assuming that you don't have an outdoor kennel.)

 

Hope this helps, but I realise that we may just not fully understand the situation.

[juliepoudrier]

Another option instead of a mat would be to get him a crate/kennel and put that in the house for him. It wouldn't solve the loneliness issue, but it would at least let him have a space where he could get up, turn around, move a bit and still be confined to a specific area. You could give him bones or chew toys to occupy his time while he's confined.

 

I forgot to add my thoughts about the chicken chasing. You can break him of chasing chickens--I teach mine as pups (but have taught adult rescues too) to leave the chickens alone. That said, sometimes the youngsters, when left in the yard unsupervised for too long (in their view) would chase the chickens because they *knew* it would make me appear. In other words, they were bored and in order to get me to come out (even if only to correct them), they would run the chickens and make them squawk. This is why I said that the dog may revert to his old behaviors when returned to his old situation.

 

I'm also surprised that he stays outside all day and doesn't exhibit any destructive behavior. If I leave mine unattended for an hour, they will likely find something to get into (with three youngsters it's a given) and it will usually be something I really didn't want destroyed....

 

Border collies were bred specifically to work in partnership with their humans, and that's why he wants so much to be with you. You didn't say what kind of interaction you have with him other than whatever behavioral modification and basic obedience training you're doing, but perhaps if you played games, taught him tricks, anything that allows him to intereact in a fun way with you while also using his brain, he would be more willing to settle in the house and not whine. I don't understand not wanting him to sit next to your feet--that's where I'd let him be if it stopped the whining and made him happier.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Welcome! You can learn a terrific amount here and I hope you are able to help Jasper.

 

His name is Jasper and he is two years old. He spent most of his day tied up as he tended to chase their horses and chickens. From what the owner had said, I expected some sort of neuroses in his behaviour. He is however the most incredible, affectionate and quick dog. I am so impressed and he seems to impact on everyone he meets.

 

He sounds like a terrific dog with a natural interest in stock (he should never be allowed to chase horses or chickens or any other stock - stockwork requires the supervision and understanding of a handler). In addition, he should not be kept where he can watch stock, as that will just reinforce his desire to "work them" on his own.

 

...he wont be allowed inside when he goes back to his owner in a month. So I dont want to change things as he will end up even more confused than he is.

 

This is what really concerns me. Is he just going back to be on the chain again? Does the owner think that your teaching Jasper some commands/obedience is going to solve his (the owner's) problems? If so, he'll have to think again.

 

He has a Border Collie that wants to interact with (I can't say how good his instincts are so I won't venture to say "work") stock, he has stock that has not been successfully or reasonably separated from Jasper (being chained up in lieu of an appropriate situation is not a suitable alternative for any dog, much less a Border Collie), and he isn't willing and/or able to cope with training Jasper himself.

 

So, if he thinks that your teaching Jasper some commands will solve his problems, it won't. You may teach Jasper some excellent skills but if his owner/owner's family isn't able or willing to work with him themselves, the situation will deteriorate very quickly into what it has been in the past. If by being trained, it means that Jasper will be able to be in his house and with his family instead of tied up outside most all the time, that will be a huge improvement in his quality of life. But it won't happen without them learning to handle and train their own dog. Nothing involving an animal's behavior is static and good behaviors need ongoing reinforcement to continue.

 

One other thing to recognize is when the best-trained, best-behaved, best-intentioned Border Collie is exposed to stock for the first times (and, since Jasper is not a trained stockdog, his reaction will largely be that of a newbie on stock plus he already has developed bad habits of chasing the stock on his own), obedience and good behavior often go right out the window as instincts and drive kick in, and he wants to interact with that stock. That is where good handling and avoiding difficult or tempting situations will be essential on the part of his owner.

 

I hate to sound pessimistic, but I think that if the owner (and yourself, and thank you for trying to help!) thinks this will solve his problems, it won't. He and his family will have to be a large part of the solution and make the efforts it requires, with or without your help. This dog apparently has nothing wrong with him except a lack of kind, consistent training and commonsense precautions (like setting up the situation with regards to the stock so that he doesn't have physical or visual access to them), and maybe some much-needed affection and acceptance.

 

I do wish you and Jasper the best, and hope things work out to improve his quality of life. He sounds like a wonderful dog and I think you are very kind to be trying to help him and his owner.