Advice on Picking a Breeder

[jdarling]

I’m sure you all remember this thread.

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...=12467&st=0

 

Then there was this thread.

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...mp;#entry172417

 

Where the OP stated:

 

Well I posted here months ago about my interest in a BC and after long and hard thought I decided to purchase one. The guy I chose is now 11 weeks old and will be nearly 12 weeks old when I get him. You guys warned me, encouraged me, and enlightened me.

 

This is the breeder chosen:

 

Misty Meadows Farm

 

Brandy's pups: born May 26th 2007--- 1 male left (black and white) Available now! Price reduced. Now $250 until he begins herding training, then the price for Buddha will go up accordingly.

Misty loves to herd our horses and Glenn enjoys herding also.

 

They are registerable International Border Collie Association.

 

I’m thinking that perhaps we need to fix the way we “warn” people, “encourage” them, and “enlighten” them, because if this is where he went after all of our advice … yikes!

 

Perhaps we should make a FAQ’s page on finding a puppy and include links to various conversation on topics such as:

 

Information on the “International Border Collie Association”

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=10851

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...ost&p=65691

 

Information on “breeders” that have been banned from the American Border Collie Association:

http://www.americanbordercollie.org/news.htm#Dicipline

(If the parents of the puppy you’re looking at have any of these names in their pedigrees, run like the wind!)

 

Etc…

 

(OP, I don't mean to pick on you specifically because most of us have done something similar our first time around. I'm trying to get to the method behind which we give information for people to consider when looking for a pup.)

 

Jodi

[Sue R]

I shouldn't have read this just prior to lunch - it's about made me gag.

 

Thanks for bringing up some important points.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Jodi,

 

I have to say I agree with your assessment and that I am quite disappointed in how the whole thing turned out myself, especially after all the good advice given in the original thread.

 

Part of the problem is convincing people that it is worth the usual wait to find a pup from a good responsible breeder. Thoughtless puppy producers always have the advantage that their puppies are available RIGHT NOW and people are impatient. They don't want to wait. They see the cute puppy and think, "me, me, I want, I want" and damn the consequences.

 

Good breeders don't have puppies available all the time. They can't. Otherwise they wouldn't be good breeders. So for people who can't wait, they'll always lose.

 

I'm looking for a puppy now. I'm well aware that it is a process that takes time. One of the reasons I made my search public here is that I hoped to generate an ongoing discussion or "saga" that people could follow, hopefully with a happy and responsible ending. The difference is, I'm willing to wait, because I don't want to be part of the problem, and because to me all Border Collie puppies are not interchangeable -- I am looking for a particular dog.

 

For most pet owners, they're interchangeable as long as they're black and white and come with the label. How to educate people when this is what we're up against? I don't know.

[Root Beer]

For most pet owners, they're interchangeable as long as they're black and white and come with the label. How to educate people when this is what we're up against? I don't know.

 

That's a good point.

 

In all 100% honesty, when I first wanted a Border Collie it was because they reminded me of Sammie, they are cute, and were supposed to be "smart". Any black and white Border Collie puppy that made up to us pretty much would have done the job.

 

Hypothetically speaking, had I gone online to research the breed before getting our puppy from the first breeder we came across, I honestly doubt I would have done anything different - I didn't know a thing about this breed and I wanted what I wanted. Words of people online that I didn't really know would not, I think, have gotten through. I would have heard what I wanted to hear and then gone out to get what I wanted, or thought I wanted at the time. I can't think of anything that is normally said on here to try to dissuade folks from going to the nearest breeder with cute puppies that would have changed my mind at that time. About the only thing I think I would have listened to then would have been a particular breeder recommendation (which I'm not saying should be done!).

 

Just to be clear - none of this is the case for me now. But I think it matches the mindset of some folks who are looking for their first Border Collie puppy.

[stockdogranch]

I agree with y'all totally. But, then, here's the other side: I'm breeding my bitch for the second (and last) time in October. I waited to breed her the first time until she had fully established herself as worthy (ranch work/cattle trialling). She'll be bred to a top cattle-working dog. I have spent a great deal of time carefully selecting the male and considering not only this individual cross, but the effects of the crossing of their lines, as well. My point? I think that makes me a responsible breeder (by the definition generally agreed to on this board), and, no matter how many pups are produced from this litter, they are all already sold to serious cattle-working homes. So if this guy contacted me, he would not get a pup. So waiting for a responsible breeder often won't get a person new to BCs anywhere.

 

I ALWAYS recommend rescue (and can't say enough good things about all of you who do rescue), but some people are just really hung on buying a pup with papers (they don't know enough to understand who issues those papers). So, I can see why people like this guy, even with all of our warnings, etc. still ended up where he did. The answer? I dunno...just thinking out loud, so to speak

Anna

[SoloRiver]

If you look at the first thread, the OP posts a picture of the puppy very early on which suggests he had already made up his mind. It's very frustrating, especially when people went on to spend considerable time and effort giving good advice.

 

It's a problem on two fronts: one, there are too many dogs and too few good homes to begin with, so only responsible breeders and rescues should be patronized at all. Two, for our breed specifically it's a grave threat because not only are these irresponsibly-bred dogs more likely to end up homeless (their breeders are not selective about placement, so for the pup it's really "the luck of the draw" whether they'll end up in a decent home or not), but they are not bred for the characteristics that make Border Collies what they are, and if Border Collies are not selected for working ability they will eventually turn into a different dog that I, personally, have no desire to live with.

 

Argh.

[Eileen Stein]

Elsewhere on this site we have Tips on Getting a Border Collie. But how to reach people with it at the time they are making their decision, before it's too late? I wish I knew.

[MrSnappy]

How heartbreaking

 

But I agree with Kristine - people are going to do what they are going to do. Look at in a bigger context - a significant portion of the population is, by now, well versed in puppymills and the horrors therein. But they still buy from pet stores because they want what they want and they want it right away. If you can show people this:

 

 

and this

 

 

And they STILL go to pet stores, I really don't see how there is hope that someone will understand the somewhat complex nature of working vs conformation vs instinct vs breed preservation etc. of the working border collie and how the selection of one's breeder plays a vital role in all of it. Heck, we still can't get newcomers here to understand that pet owners aren't second class citizens. I would need at least a dozen extra pair of hands to use fingers to count the number of times I've read this sentence: "So what you nutcases are saying is that if I don't use my dog to herd I shouldn't have a border collie???" or some variation thereof. *sigh*

 

It's just so sad. How many times have I turned someone down when it comes to adopting, patiently explaining why a border collie is probably not the right choice for them, only to have them go out and buy a dog and surrender it to me within the year. A lot of the time, I feel like I speak just because I like to hear myself talk. I think the real reason people burn out of rescue is not the never-decreasing number of dogs, nor the sad stories, nor the time and energy ... it's the sheer hopelessness of saying the same thing over and over and no one ever listening.

 

I do think I will feel better about everything if I could just .... have Lark.

 

 

RDM

[Lenajo]

People want quick, and Americans are the worst.

 

They want the breed they want NOW

 

They want a puppy NOW

 

They want the puppy trained NOW

 

They want the dog that isn't working out GONE NOW.

 

It's not just pet buyers, it's training and trialing and you name it. Look at the Training Discussion on the boards today. I'm having to explain to somebody why its not ok to shock a Border Collie to teach it to obey. Yet another "NOW" required.

 

Right now I'm giving it 10 years, but I suspect the breed might be nearly completely ruined much faster. If we are allowed to own a dog at all.

[kelpiegirl]

It isn't just Americans. Americans seem to "get things" before other countries, except other highly industralized nations. I remember when I went to Norway in 1980, and being astonished at the price of Levis jeans. OH how my cousins wanted us to bring them some. We may start trends, because we have may have the $$ to, but other nations quickly catch up- trust me. Now, my cousin from Norway is the one to present us with the LATEST techno gadgets. All working dogs will continue to exist as long as those who breed them continue to select for working ability, and breed only to those dogs who have proven they HAVE that ability, not just in their pedigree, but in their work.

[ShoresDog]

It seems like such a shame that some experienced members of the board will just hang their hearts out to dry posting thoughtful, well-considered, detailed answers to common questions -- and it has to take a lot of their time -- only to be blown off. Would it help if there was a set of stock answers that could be posted, derived from some of these threads and enhanced with some of RDM's heartbreaking puppy mill pictures, and including links to Tips from the main site?

[pammyd]

I was happy to hear that the local school had a visit from the dogs trust today (the rescue where I got ben) sounds like they did a really good job with the kids

The woman next door has a lovely pup and is looking for another - her son came home telling her how it would be much better and cheeper to get a dog from rescue

- and not that cost should be the main issue buying a dog - but if you are just wanting a pet dog then why spend £600 getting one when the rescue costs £75 and you get them nutered, chipped and vacinated for that price

I dunno what its like over there but when I went to get ben there were about 5 other litters of pups there too - so if you want a pup now - easy

Papers over here usually mean a highly strung show dog - no thanks

[jdarling]

Melanie wrote:

 

If you look at the first thread, the OP posts a picture of the puppy very early on which suggests he had already made up his mind. It's very frustrating, especially when people went on to spend considerable time and effort giving good advice.

 

I noticed that, too. I don't think I noticed it at the time, but you know what they say about hindsight. Even if someone had noticed it back then, I still don't think there was anything anyone could say to sway his opinion, as you said, it seem that he had already made up his mind. So I guess, in a nutshell, we're really doing all we can do, but puppymills will always be out there, and they will always prey on those who don't know any better. Although, even saying that people "don't know any better" is getting old ... aren't people starting to catch on that puppymills exist and what they are all about? It's disappointing that there will always be a plethora of people that do not do their homework before making their purchase (or, in a case like this one, asks but doesn't listen for the answer).

 

Yes, frustrating. Very.

 

Jodi

[Bill Fosher]

They see the cute puppy and think, "me, me, I want, I want" and damn the consequences.

 

Well, that's how I ended up with the little monster whose picture is under my name over there to the left.

 

... because to me all Border Collie puppies are not interchangeable -- I am looking for a particular dog.

 

This is true. If she hadn't been from dogs that I like a lot, I probably (and NB that I say probably) could have gotten over her cuteness.

[Root Beer]

Although, even saying that people "don't know any better" is getting old ... aren't people starting to catch on that puppymills exist and what they are all about? It's disappointing that there will always be a plethora of people that do not do their homework before making their purchase (or, in a case like this one, asks but doesn't listen for the answer).

 

Yes, frustrating. Very.

 

Jodi

 

I think that knowledge of puppy mills in general is out there, but I think that most people can easily be convinced that an operation is not actually a puppy mill by a convincing internet advertisement, or by someone's verbal assurance that the dog is not from a puppy mill. Pictures of the "family dogs" that are being bred living with their "loving people" can be very compelling.

 

Also, many people, I think, don't realize that puppy mills produce dogs with papers. The first Border Collie I ever saw was in a pet store. That was the one that reminded me of Sammie and I thought, "I want one of THOSE!" I asked the guy there what kind of dog it was and he, of course, tried to sell that dog to me. I knew better than to buy from a pet store, but I did ask him if the dog was from a puppy mill. He said no, that the dog was from an AKC breeder and had papers. I did not buy the dog, but I took his word for it at the time. I was quite impressed (at the time) to hear that our local pet store was not getting dogs from puppy mills but from "AKC breeders". I couldn't have told you at the time what an "AKC breeder" was, but when I was new to all of this it sounded awfully important.

 

Frustrating as it is, and much as I hate to say it, I think there will be people for a long time to come who will be swayed by convincing advertising and the right catch phrases.

 

I always enjoy reading the responses to the folks who come in here making a post like the OP referenced did. I am impressed by the dedication that many of you have in being willing to repeat the same message over and over. It might not get through to everyone, but it's still important to keep plugging. Haven't there been some folks who have changed their minds about getting a certain puppy from a certain breeder after having that same discussion here? It seems to me I remember a few who went to rescue or got a puppy from a good breeder in the end.

[Rosanne]

Even if someone had noticed it back then, I still don't think there was anything anyone could say to sway his opinion,

 

Some people did notice and made comments to the effect of "red flags" or "wouldn't buy a pup from there" but the OP said he only wanted a "pet" so it didn't matter.

[MrSnappy]

I think that knowledge of puppy mills in general is out there, but I think that most people can easily be convinced that an operation is not actually a puppy mill by a convincing internet advertisement, or by someone's verbal assurance that the dog is not from a puppy mill. Pictures of the "family dogs" that are being bred living with their "loving people" can be very compelling.

 

I agree, but greed/desire can be equally compelling. An example I have to offer is this: we have a local pet store in a high traffic part of town that sells small breed puppies by the gazillion. The folks who own the store - their parents breed the puppies that are for sale in the store. These 'breeders' have been cited and at one point shut down by the SPCA, and the dogs confiscated, and it was highly publicized. That should clue in a lot of people. Not too long ago, an employee of the SPCA bought one of those puppies. I mean, of all the people who should know better ... and she bought a puppy from a store her own employer is trying to put out of business. "Because it was so cute." Blech.

 

But it's really difficult for people to hold onto their morals in the face of puppy 'need.' One of my foster homes has a border collie they bought from a notorious loser locally who travels around the province buying up BC puppies cheap from rural ranches - he then brings them to the Lower Mainland to sell. He tells people his father breeds the pups and he sells them for his dad. He keeps the pups in a metal shed and provides the least amount of vet care possible. He is a client of the clinic another foster home works at - if a puppy is sick, he prefers to ' knock it over the head' than shell out even $50.00. He says there are always more where that one came from. Every pup he sells is loaded with worms, lots have had parvo etc. Anyway, the foster home in question (this was before they knew about us) went loaded with a list of questions and requirements they had gleaned from researching how to buy a puppy responsibly. And of course, the second they saw the pup, as she puts it "the list went right into the trash and we had to have him." I understand it, on an emotional level. I don't feel that way about puppies anymore because I see so so SO many of them. I have placed somewhere in the vicinity of 500 dogs. So puppies don't grab me like that. But for the average person ... sure they will.

 

It's so hard to do this battle because emotion and desire wins so much of the time.

 

RDM

[Lenajo]

"only wanted a "pet""....you can make that "agility dog"...."flyball dog"...."frisbee dog"....and yes some times "working dog" etc. I hear it over, and over, and over...from people who without any doubt know better. But what matters is they get the pup now, when they want it.

 

We humans are a selfish lot sometimes.

 

I recently nailed a well regarded sport competitor on this subject because, in a rush to get a pup when *she* was ready, bought a pup from a color breeder who's lack of decent conditions for her dogs is well known, as is her overbreeding. The buyer's rational was that she "didn't see it, and the puppy was clean when it got here". *She* didn't see it...because she won't go to the kennel for a variety or reasons...she'll drive 2000 miles for agility, but won't drive less than half that to see where her puppy was born...?????

 

Ostrich Collie Buyer Syndrome. OCBS Disease for short.

[clara]

no matter how many pups are produced from this litter, they are all already sold to serious cattle-working homes

 

I would LOVE to be able to buy a well bred, healthy BC pup from a responsible breeder. However, I'm a "pet quality" home, so I'm never going to fall into a category of people that responsible breeders want their pups going to. I don't have the contacts locally to be in that position. Additionally, I know of a LOT of AKC breeders in my area that it would be sooooo *easy* to get a pup from due to agility participation. But because of this board, and the rescue board, I will NEVER buy a pup from them.

 

You guys, please don't underestimate your influence on people. Some of us are just quiet about it most of the time. I am completely sold on rescue, and that's the only kind of pet I'll ever have for the rest of my life. I also spend a lot of time telling people about the problems with puppy mills and BYBs - to people who honestly say they never knew. And I've talked two people in my office into adopting from the local shelter instead of buying dogs. Granted, they didn't get BCs, but they didn't buy dogs either. And they're very happy with their decision. I got most of the information I use to talk to people from the boards.

 

I think the most influence we're going to have is on people we know, work with, live with, live next to - by direct contact and discussion. This board is a great source of information and encouragement.

 

So whether or not TDBCR will approve my adoption application next time I'm in the market for a dog (wish I had a "fingers crossed" emoticon), I'm GOING to adopt my next BC and give it a great home. And you guys have cemented that decision. Some people are just going to do whatever they've already made up their minds to do, no matter how much information you give them. But others might reconsider. So getting more information on this board could never hurt!!!

[Lenajo]

Clara I always refer pet buyers to Rescue first, but I have to admit that I know quite a few working breeders, including myself, that are thrilled to see our babies as well loved, well trained, and well cared for, *pets*.

 

No puppies here (no free advertising going on here! LOL), so just a point of view to offer. I'm thrilled to see dogs come out of Rescue, but I'm equally thrilled to see good working breeding supported. _Both_ offer great benefit to the breed.

[Pipedream Farm]

So you'd like to get a pup from a respected working breeder; then ask. Ask if they have any pups. Ask when they will be breeding again. Ask if they sell to non-working homes (some do some don't). Tell them you'd like to get one of their pups. Ask to be put on a waiting list. You might be surprised, pleasantly surprised. These breeders don't know you; they don't know who is looking for a pup; they don't have to advertise to sell their pups. They don't need to advertise because enough puppy buyers come to them wanting their pups that they have waiting lists. The worst thing that can happen to you is being told no; the best thing is you could get in line and eventually get a working bred pup.

 

SO ASK

 

Mark (no litters planned for several years)

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think it's fantastic when people are committed to rescue. I did full-time rescue for ages and know that really if you wait long enough, you can get almost any kind of dog - assuming you don't have a list of requirements a mile long. For instance, someone like Melanie would probably wait years to get another dog that fit into her household - but then again that kind of thing can happen *apparently* spontaneously, too.

 

Anyway, I have to echo the fact that the working world isn't really that difficult to "break into". I believe it's worth repeating. Go to trials and hang out. Someone will eventually notice you aren't competing and at that point you can offer to help. If you are the forward type you can tell someone you are simply there to help wherever possible.

 

Dollars to donuts you will be drafted with great aplumb. Now you have a friend or multiple friends. By this time you probably will have some dog or handler that has caught your eye. Next, mention that you are looking for a puppy. Stand back as folks start lining up.

 

Then you just sort out the breeders who you feel most comfortable working with. There's a wide range of practices represented by working breeders - everything from old-fashioned bare bones breeding and whelping right up to the latest modern thinking. I don't think any one way is right - the questions to ask are, why were the parents chosen, what type of puppies does the breeder hope for (as far as working style and what they'd get from the parents), and what steps has the breeder taken to try to ensure soundness in the next generation?

 

Please note, the answer to that last one may or may not involve trips to the vet (other than brucellosis testing). I'm personally much more comfortable taking a pup from generations of true working parents, than from generations of lab-tested soundness that hasn't been otherwise proven.

 

Most breeders are in between though. You just have to find your comfort level.

 

Well, where's the time gone? Time to fix lunch for the crew and then only a couple hours to take advantage of this gorgeous weather and get everyone out for training time!

[painted_ponies]

Anyway, I have to echo the fact that the working world isn't really that difficult to "break into". I believe it's worth repeating. Go to trials and hang out. Someone will eventually notice you aren't competing and at that point you can offer to help. If you are the forward type you can tell someone you are simply there to help wherever possible.

 

Or if you're really forward you can do as I did. Go to the USBCHA website and find a trial in your area. The person in charge of the trial will have their email address linked on that page. Email them and tell them you'd like to attend to learn about trialling and offer to help with whatever they need. I got to be the judge's scribe and had the best seat in the house!

[clara]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread into a topic of "how to find a well bred BC pup if you have no stock-dog contacts" (though the suggestions are MUCH appreciated, I'll give it some thought).

 

But the answers to my post did bring up some other thoughts about this topic, and how to approach those who come here looking for information on "how to pick a breeder".

 

I'm really too busy right now to get involved in trialing. I'm married, have a full time job, some volunteer organizations I work with, agility and lots of home improvement projects, including basic maintenance of my home. Maybe if Ling had loved it, I'd have switched from agility 2-3 times a week to herding, but that didn't happen, and now I know I have an agility dog. So that's my dog activity. Maybe someday I'll move to the country and get some sheep and try trialing. That's a wonderful idea and I'd be open to it. But right now I'm a busy city girl who just happens to LOVE my BC and believe I'll never have another breed of dog in my home. And I have a 10 yr old dog who isn't getting any younger, so one of these days I'll be looking for a new dog #2.

 

Maybe some of these people who come here asking about breeders are looking for a pet quality BC (a category in which I include agility and disk dogs) because they also do not have the time or inclination to get involved in herding. Or maybe they come here not knowing the difference. For those of us who fit these categories, maybe encouraging rescue is the only route to take to ensure that good breeding practices are encouraged (ie. for herding, I'm a convert on that issue).

 

If someone does happen to miraculously find a good breeder without being involved in herding or trialing or any kind of livestock at all, great, but improbable. Otherwise, I think rescue organizations really need to be pushed as much as possible. Frankly, before reading these boards, I had no idea that breed specific rescue existed. I just went to the shelter and picked out a dog that I connected with. I didn't know about petfinder.com until two years ago either. Many people still don't... I just told a student who works at my office about it when he said he was looking for a dog, and he had never heard of it.

 

I guess I understand the emotion of puppy love, but I think a lot of people can be, and have been reached about rescuing as a superior choice to buying from a bad breeder. I've seen it happen.

 

I hate to be the voice of optimism, but I think people's minds can be changed and bad breeding can be curtailed if we all keep talking about it to everyone we know who's thinking of getting a BC.

[SoloRiver]

What seems to happen, quite often, is that people looking for pets are intimidated by breeders they feel will be very selective (working breeders, perhaps) so they do a total 180 and end up buying a puppy from someone who is not selective at all. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that non-selective breeders usually always have puppies on the ground at all times.

 

People need to stop being intimidated. There is nothing wrong with breeders being selective, and nothing to lose by asking a selective breeder about buying a puppy. That's the process I'm going through right now. I work my dogs, but as a hobby only (I don't own sheep) and not nearly as often as I would like to, so I am basically a pet person. That does not stop me from contacting breeders of working dogs because that's the kind of dog I want. I can describe my home, and then let them decide if I'm a suitable place for one of their pups or not. If someone says no, it's not like I'm going to end up with a huge scarlet letter tattooed on me or anything like that. What do I have to lose? All they can do is say no. It doesn't have to be anything personal. All it means is that I might not be the ideal home for the dogs that a particular breeder is producing. I am well aware that this could conceivably be the case, and I too would rather find a good match than try and make square pegs fit into round holes, so I figure the more questions I am asked the better.

 

Because of my needs (I am looking for my next working trial dog) and desires (I'd like raise a puppy this time around) I am not looking into rescue, but otherwise that's exactly where I would be looking. Although it is possible to find a puppy with the genetics to be a successful (or at least passable) trial dog in rescue, it's not as likely. The other reason I am looking for a good breeder is that I'd like to find a breeder who can be a mentor to me as I raise the pup, not someone who's just going to take my check and then not care what happens to the dog as she grows up.

 

I WANT to be interrogated by a breeder, and I want that breeder to be picky, because then I know she cares about the dogs she produces, and I am much more likely to end up with a dog that is a good match to me, the dogs I already have, and my home.