Jump to content
BC Boards
Lenajo

releasing registration papers with rescue adoptions

Recommended Posts

Oops. That was me. Sorry, Eileen. I guess it was because I'm not very smart and my head hurts. Shame on me. My apologies to the poster.

 

I'm sure you're quite bright. I would make no claims against your personal genius. I think your *argument* was lousy however - I do get awfully tired of seeing everyone but the breeder blamed for dogs in shelters. Calling rescue a safety net is, IMO, tantamount to calling it 'part of the problem.' I just can't agree with that, because it seriously undermines everything I've been working for for the last decade, and what other people have been doing for much longer. I just don't think rescue is part of the problem just because it works within the problem.

 

Lenajo, we have a similar problem with the sport (agility) people here except, ironically, they want dogs from working lines (presumably because BCs aren't kennel club registered here) and not "unknowns." I could have the most awesome sport dog potential in rescue but unless this-or-that Big Hat bred him, no one wants him. This goes for working dogs too, of course.

 

And flyball people will pay oodles of money for and ship a purposely crossbred puppy from a sport kennel in the US that Debbie has mentioned, but I still have not been able to place Keeper/Rogue.

 

I actually think the FCI thing etc. is one of the reasons Kelpies have suddenly become popular in agility, here. They are CKC registered.

 

RDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kelpies are also popular because a certain 'big name' in agility has a few that are REALLY nice dog in agility.

 

Well RDM, you're the one who said you wanted to keep Keeper local. Now, if you should randomly decide to ship her, say, to the Philadelphia area, I could certainly keep an eye on her for 15 years or so for you. . . .

 

 

In my area sport people want sport lines so they 'know' the dog will be good in agility. Ironically, as Lenajo mentioned, most of those handlers will never even see a World team Tryout, let alone need a pedigree. And honestly, most of the dedicated sport breeders are even worse about checking the health of their lines than some working breeders are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know, if she's a really nice dog you could just mail her to me and solve the whole problem right there.

 

Is she any good on sheep?

 

She is lovely, just plain old lovely. Sweet and willing to try anything you ask, and yes nice on sheep for a beginning dog. What airport would you like her to be shipped too please? For you, I wave all adoption fees in exchange for frequent photo updates :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well RDM, you're the one who said you wanted to keep Keeper local. Now, if you should randomly decide to ship her, say, to the Philadelphia area, I could certainly keep an eye on her for 15 years or so for you. . . .

 

But then how could *I* play with her? As it is, I only get to see her once a week or so and it's a long 7 days.

 

Le sigh!

 

RDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sure you're quite bright. I would make no claims against your personal genius. I think your *argument* was lousy however - I do get awfully tired of seeing everyone but the breeder blamed for dogs in shelters. Calling rescue a safety net is, IMO, tantamount to calling it 'part of the problem.' I just can't agree with that, because it seriously undermines everything I've been working for for the last decade, and what other people have been doing for much longer. I just don't think rescue is part of the problem just because it works within the problem.

 

Sheena,

 

I understand that you get quite defensive every time someone mentions rescue in a less than holy manner, however, I don't think you were reading my entire message. In short, the first part said, "Yes, sling the breeder's name through the mud," and the second part said, "It's too bad rescue is always available to bail the millers out instead of holding the millers responsible for every puppy they put on the ground." Whether or not I was slamming rescue is not the issue. And I think you know that I do quite a bit of fostering and rescue. And am getting quite burned out with cleaning up other "breeder" messes. But it's about the dogs, which is why I do it.

 

I understand my opinion is not a popular one, and I've so stated. Lousy? Thanks, Sheena. I think that's a bit of a stretch. But you know what they say about opinions ... everyone's entitled to one. I guess I'll just keep mine to myself.

 

Jodi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I think everytime a rescue gets a breeder's dog in, and the breeder knows and refuses to help out, the rescue has EVERY RIGHT and even an obligation, to announce the breeder's name all over and say how they wouldn't take the dog back. But for some reason it's considered taboo.

 

I honestly believe most of the people/friends I know in agility would not ever go to a breeder who wouldn't take responsibility for the dogs they'd bred. Some of them have a bit of an AKC mentality when it comes to breeding, but they wouldn't dream of deliberately going to a miller or BYB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I think everytime a rescue gets a breeder's dog in, and the breeder knows and refuses to help out, the rescue has EVERY RIGHT and even an obligation, to announce the breeder's name all over and say how they wouldn't take the dog back. But for some reason it's considered taboo.

 

If you push hard enough, even the slummiest breeders will insist the dog go back - and it will be in worst situation than it was. I've had several that the breeder refused, that I knew I could "force". But if I forced it, the dogs would just be dumped or shot. Of course I would never be able to prove that.... And taking dogs back in general isn't necessarily a great thing - couple of those satanic sport breeders alluded too will gladly take back your aggressive, ocd, sickly dog with a smile.....and either breed it, or if you've been so unkind as to s/n it they will dump it on the next unsuspecting customer as a "working" dog. Been there, seen this...too much!

 

Rescue is in a grey area too. It is a facilitator, because if people didn't have a place to go then more would be forced to do the right thing. But since an equal number of people won't be forced (legally or ethically) its a good thing that Rescue exists - for the dogs who have no choice.

 

The answer to all of it is simple, and hard. We have to not only educate, but set a great example to every person we can. Say the words, LOUDLY, and walk the walk!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheRuffMuttGang

I think Keeper would like to move to TX, actually. We are in serious need of some new speedy height dogs! Ours are all getting OLD and now we've got a surplus of big dogs and not enough height dogs to keep 'em all running.

 

Since she is just a wee thing, I think she'll fit perfectly between Tank and Mojo, yes?

536of1e.jpg

 

And for the record, there were FIVE puppies in my "wee sick puppy" litter. Two were adopted before I got to the shelter to save them. My guess is they both died. I wish I knew. Well, maybe I don't...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
She is lovely, just plain old lovely. Sweet and willing to try anything you ask, and yes nice on sheep for a beginning dog. What airport would you like her to be shipped too please? For you, I wave all adoption fees in exchange for frequent photo updates :rolleyes:

 

Dammit, don't you know the answer is supposed to be "Oh no, I couldn't possibly ship her so far away!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wendy,

 

Would it be possible to post a picture of her????

 

I will try to get the home craputur to download one tonight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sheena,

 

I understand that you get quite defensive every time someone mentions rescue in a less than holy manner, however, I don't think you were reading my entire message.

 

Actually, if you want to split hairs, I would argue that you didn't read mine either. What you said was that rescuers are safety net for bad breeders who therefore don't have to take responsibility for their ouput. And that in a perfect world they would have to do so. I argued that it's not a perfect world, so we (rescuers) are less a safety net than for the bad breeders than we are for the dogs, period. I don't think we are a safety net by any stretch, because those breeders don't care whether we take them in or not, as Debbie's experience with the litter in the pound illustrates nicely. I think we are just another option, like killing them or dumping them in the forest (which I don't think you would describe as safety nets, would you?) except we are a kinder one. It's an argument I can't buy the validity of.

 

I think there are instances where particular rescues do behave as safety nets for certain breeders, and were I another sort of person I could trot those examples out, but on the whole, given the bigger picture, I don't think that rescue (or shelters for that matter) operates as a safety net for anyone except for the dogs, because the alternatives are pretty grim. Do I agree with your perfect world scenario? ABSOLUTELY. I wish that all breeders were held accountable for what they produced. But they aren't, so I say again, you can't mandate morality and if those breeders cared where their dogs went in the first place, there wouldn't be anything to even talk about.

 

Rescue doesn't exist without bad breeders (and owners). Bad breeders (and owners) can and do exist with and without rescue.

 

I understand my opinion is not a popular one, and I've so stated. Lousy? Thanks, Sheena. I think that's a bit of a stretch. But you know what they say about opinions ... everyone's entitled to one. I guess I'll just keep mine to myself.

 

Why on earth would you do that? Does the world end because one person really disagrees with you? Does your personal philosophy crumble? I sure hope not. I've expressed many an opinion on these boards over the last many years I've been here. Some have been "popular" (given I am, after all, the head of a popularity subset. Where's my crown?) and some have most definitely been LESS than popular, and very recently too. I think anyone except the mildest of posters could say the same. And the posers, of course, have no right to say anything :rolleyes: Why not keep expressing them? Just because *I* thought your leap in logic was lousy doesn't mean you don't have a right to express it, though slamming me personally in a post that was apparently so vicious in nature it had to be removed (I didn't see it though) is less interesting than debating me on the point. Don't you think?

 

Debbie - I am not sending Keeper to Texas either!! I don't want to live in Texas and I want Keeper to live with me! Double le sigh.

 

RDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I think everytime a rescue gets a breeder's dog in, and the breeder knows and refuses to help out, the rescue has EVERY RIGHT and even an obligation, to announce the breeder's name all over and say how they wouldn't take the dog back. But for some reason it's considered taboo.

 

I tried that. I got three dogs from the same "flyball breeder" in, in one year. I made sure everyone in the sporting community knew where these dogs came from.

 

No big deal though. They've switched to borderjacks now.

 

Gah.

 

RDM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lenajo, I didn't mean to 'force' the breeder to take the dog back, I meant just to sully their reputation a bit so clueless sports people might realize they're a bad breeder. If you had doubts about any breeder I'd encourage anyone NOT to give the dog back.

 

 

RDM that's awful about the flyball breeder's dogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will try to get the home craputur to download one tonight.

 

 

Uh oh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sheena -

 

Thank you for your input. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

 

One thing i would like to correct, though:

 

though slamming me personally in a post that was apparently so vicious in nature it had to be removed (I didn't see it though) is less interesting than debating me on the point.

 

There was nothing vicious about my post. Inappropriate? Depends on who you ask. Vicious? Not even close. Thank you for your assumption, though. I'm sorry you missed it.

 

Jodi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If ownership of the dog has been signed over to rescue how is there a danger of the breeder insisting that they get the dog back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liz,

I might be wrong but I don't think that's the issue. They don't want to 'advertise' the breeder to help them sell more dogs. (If rescue dog does great, we can get another one at suchandsuch!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liz,

I might be wrong but I don't think that's the issue. They don't want to 'advertise' the breeder to help them sell more dogs. (If rescue dog does great, we can get another one at suchandsuch!)

 

The concern was brought up that if a breeder learned that their dog was in rescue they would try to get it back and might be successful. Legally, as far as I know, this is next to impossible. I wish rescues could report papered dogs to the ABCA so that a database could be kept to show who is not breeding/selling responsibly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>> I wish rescues could report papered dogs to the ABCA so that a database could be kept to show who is not breeding/selling responsibly<<

 

OK, so a person gets a pup from a breeder, signs a contract which STATES first right buy back to the pup if it doesn't work out and then the buyer gets rid of the pup but doesn't tell the breeder. Breeder tries to get in contact but no response. Breeder finds out pup was given away and offer to take pup back.

 

So does this mean the breeder is not breeding/selling responsibly?

 

Some rescue do not even bother telling or offering to let the breeder know the pup is in rescue. So you then penalize the breeders?

 

Most of the dogs that I got in rescue were from ACK or non-papered lines. Or if ABCA lines, it was a couple of working generations ago. A couple came from working breeder/trialer who promptly offer to take back the dogs (and had no idea the dogs were in rescue)

 

 

Diane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Diane

I have seen this exact scenario myself. I would like to add, that the breeder can do only so much- if the person refuses to cooperate, then it is out of the breeder's hands- that's why I think it is good to communicate with breeders.

 

Julie

 

>> I wish rescues could report papered dogs to the ABCA so that a database could be kept to show who is not breeding/selling responsibly<<

 

OK, so a person gets a pup from a breeder, signs a contract which STATES first right buy back to the pup if it doesn't work out and then the buyer gets rid of the pup but doesn't tell the breeder. Breeder tries to get in contact but no response. Breeder finds out pup was given away and offer to take pup back.

 

So does this mean the breeder is not breeding/selling responsibly?

 

Some rescue do not even bother telling or offering to let the breeder know the pup is in rescue. So you then penalize the breeders?

 

Most of the dogs that I got in rescue were from ACK or non-papered lines. Or if ABCA lines, it was a couple of working generations ago. A couple came from working breeder/trialer who promptly offer to take back the dogs (and had no idea the dogs were in rescue)

Diane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lenajo, I want to get back to your original issue. I'm not an experienced rescuer or anything. Just someone on the other side of the world who listens and cares. I've been thinking about your issue since I first read it.

 

Something is bothering you with the whole idea or you wouldn't be posting here to ask for opinions. I think you should go with your gut and it kinda sounds like your gut is saying no. Obviously this is a rough situation. You have an individual dog in your hands with great potential and you want to see it used. But if you are right and it is used and connected to her breeding, there is a risk of encouraging some very bad breeding and that could be a problem for a lot of dogs. She could be a freak and who knows what problems might crop up in other dogs in her line. Not to mention what kind of treatment they get at the hands of this breeder.

 

What does is hurt this one dog for her potential to go unused? Is she going to suffer if she doesn't become a sports star but gets a loving active home instead? I don't think so.

 

Personally, I'd rather she came to a home where she will be loved for herself and not partly for her papers. Where they don't expect her to make world team and won't be disappointed if she doesn't. She's a rescue. She might very well shine. But she also might suddenly show hidden problems from her past life that you haven't seen yet and suddenly she'd be back in rescue rejected again and looking for a new home.

 

This is just my opinion and hopefully it won't happen to her, but personally I think it would be better to wait a little longer. List her on here and on the rescue board without her papers. Maybe someone will know someone that is looking for a dog just like her who is willing to travel the extra distance and with contacts online to help with home visits and all the checks needed to place her safely. Wouldn't you be happier placing her so you could cross out that breeder info and not risk advertising a bad breeder with one lucky good sports dog?

 

Just my two cents. Whatever you do, you're the one that has to live with it, so think long and hard and go with your gut. Trust your instincts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going back to the original question, I think it should be on a case by case basis.

 

When I got Luce, I wasn't aware that she had papers beforehand, and I didn't care. But I am glad that I have them because I have an interest in my own family tree :-) and it does answer some questions for me.

 

And I find it very interesting, and, well, I just like to know :-)

 

Bwlch Taff is her great grandfather on her father's side. I have the One Man and His Dog DVD and it was fun to see some of her relatives on there. Not that Luce can compare to them ... she has some herding instincts, but it didn't just pop right out like it should have.

 

Her mother's side .... oy. Luce's mother has an unusual name (not the generic "Cap" like her father) I actually found a picture of Luce's mother on a "successful adoptions" page of a Tennessee border collie rescue group (Luce was born in Tennessee). Luce looks just like her .... smooth coat but not slick smooth, very dark red, very very similar markings and ear set.

 

Further googling found her litter brother (one digit difference in their ABCA number!) for sale on Richard Swafford's site (before he got kicked out of ABCA) .... oh my, that was hard as he looked so forlorn. The dog, not the "breeder" <g> Really original name too ... Red. He had sired some puppies as well and they were for sale at the same time .... that was hard too. Guess what color they all were? Yup. Have found other relatives on her mother's side either through Red or other dogs with her mother in their background ... and guess what color almost all of them are??!! LOTS of thought going in to all of those breedings. NOT. :rolleyes:

 

Does any of it matter? For me, no. Luce is who she is. She is a very sweet girl, has some quirks, but she is my girl. Some of it is from nature, some of it is from nuture. Sort of like any dog :-) She has tried herding and certainly wasn't a star. She did turn on and the sheep respected her. Her herding instructor did say she would make it out of the round pen and would be useful if she could get on sheep 3 or 4 times a week but I ran out of time and money and couldn't pursue it much. Maybe having her pedigree worked against her? If I didn't know her mother's side was bred for color, would I have tried to pursue it more? Who knows ... she will be 8 in less than a month, so that is all water under the bridge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...