Jenalyn Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Hi! I have a pup, Kai, that's about 15 months old now, and I've been working on teaching him some agility basics at home with the aid of weave poles, a jump, and a tunnel found at Target. I'm having trouble finding a good training motivator. The first time I worked with him, I used a rope toy as a reward. I'd throw it and play tug with him a bit after he'd done something right, and he really had a blast. The second time I worked with him, he didn't want to have anything to do with the rope toy. He'd unenthusiastically go over a jump, and I'd try to engage him by throwing the toy or wiggling it in front of his face for him to grab it, but he'd just sit down and look at me, and refuse to move unless I gave him a firm recall command. I threw the toy directly at him once, too, thinking he might try to catch it. He just let it hit him square in the face. And didn't move. And looked at me like, "What?" The third time I came armed with a nice slice of ham lunch meat, and although this worked better than the toy, he was still rather unenthusiastic, and after working with him for two minutes or so it got difficult to even lure him around with it. I try to keep training sessions short and fun. I also try to end training on a good note, while Kai's still enjoying it and wanting more, but it's difficult to even do anything in a training session when I can't find a good motivator for him. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what else I could try? Thanks! -Jenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 How often are you training Kai? Everyday? 2-3 times day? Once a week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Have you tried just teaching him to play? That is, without the agility equipment? Sometimes, the stress of learning something new can "shut down" a dog who hasn't really grasped the idea of "play". I would rather start agility training with a dog who is nuts about a motivator (be it a ball, a tug, or a food-stuffed toy) than one who has basic obedience but no idea how to play. My aussie, Bear, was my first agility dog and, whilst never a speed demon, he did pick up a modest amount of oomph once we learned to play. For Bear, he likes the ball, though he will tug when asked. Wick is a ball fiend, but I preferred the tug with her as it's less distracting to other dogs, and it's more interactive. Plus, she can't bark when she has her tug in her mouth. Lou is not really "in training" for agility, as he's more of a sheepdog, but he enjoys a good game of tug. He learned pretty much the first time, and will both tug and drop it on command. Here's a really good article on teaching your dog to play with you. I have found that the most important thing re: getting your dog to play with you is that you have to be willing to be silly. Let your dog know that you find this fun too - call me crazy, but I love to play with my dogs, and they love to play with me, on or off the equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Have you had him checked out by a vet for possible joint issues? Sometimes lack of enthusiasm (especially on and off) at that age can point to a physical problem. Some of it is teenaged angst. Don't push him. Play with the toy yourself and play keepaway and hard to get. Throw the toy AWAY from him then run to get it yourself, then run away with it. Yup, you will look like a big chump but that's how puppies play. Forget the agility training for now. Just teach him to work for your attention and approval. Clicker training is a great way to do this. Once he's got the idea that he can work for you, you can mechanically teach him to play with the tug. Once he's taking the tug, you can up the ante by "letting him win" consistently. That usually turns on a dog to the tug. There's lots of simple games you can play to build drive on the tug. Run, dangling it behind, while making high pitched wounded small animal noises. Swish it on the ground, keeping it just out of reach. Hold him by the collar - or have someone else hold him - get really excited, waving it around, throw it, then release him. Then run beside him while he carries it. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenalyn Posted July 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Brenda - the three training sessions I described took place over a 4 or 5 day period. Kristi - thanks for the link! That looks like fun. I've played with Kai a lot, but he's never been all that keen on toys. He'll only play if he's in the mood and there's nothing else to do. It's a striking contrast to my other ball-obsessed border collie! One thing I've also had trouble getting Kai to do is holding/grabbing a toy on command, which could be related to our other "troubles". Maybe the described method will help increase his toy drive. Rebecca - A problem with his joints is a scary thought, but something I'll be sure to look into. Thinking back, it's hard for me to tell if Kai's stopping our play sessions from pain or just some weird personality quirk. Do you know of any other general signs I could look for that would let me know if it's a pain problem or not? My memory might just be playing around with me, but I don't remember having these kinds of problems before Kai and I started herding lessons a few months ago. I wonder if it's possible that he's decided anything less than stock isn't interesting enough Thanks so much for all the replies! This has been a huge help. -Jenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 My boy, now 5, has never been a particularly toy oriented dog, but I have managed to get him to play tug, and 'kill the soft toy'. He is an anxious dog, and I think he thought he wasn't allowed to play. A good suggestion which can work for this sort of dog is to put the tuggy (soft one - like polar fleece for preference), on the end of a long lead, and then play as Becca describes. Since the tuggy is further from you, the dog thinks it's OK to pounce on it. Once you have this behaviour established, then you can shorten up the lead gradually, until the dog is comfortable with you having the tuggy in your hand. I still have to rev this dog up vith crazy verbals - like a growly "Kill the tuggy!" Once you have the tuggy behaviour established away from equipment, you can play near equipkment - and then maybe throw the tuggy over the jump to encourage the dog to go on - then another game of tuggy - etc. How are you trying to teach weavers. You may have to chunk it way down for your pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 The other thing with agility is it tends to be its own reward. All the dogs at my agility club love it so much that they don't want food, it just gets in the way of doing more agility. There is a border collie there who absolutely loves the A-Frame, she goes absolutely nuts for it. The best reward for her is to let her go over it again at the end of the run. Are you teaching each thing explicitly in a lesson or do you do all the obstacles set up? I imagine weaves can be a pain in the butt for dogs, especially if they haven't perfected them yet. If I am doing a weaving session with my dogs I have jumps and things set up off to the side. If they do well with the weaves we get to run around a bit and do some random jumping. Border Collies love to run so he may just appreciate the opportunity to stretch out in between weaves. If you are working on jumps then perhaps a sudden dash to the other side of the yard followed by a wrestle. Don't underestimate interaction as a reward. Some dogs just love to get a good pat and to play with you rather than a toy. As for food, you can try really mixing it up. Make it so that he never knows what he is going to get. Have a bag full of little bits of cheese, ham, sausage, roast chicken, frankfurts, popcorn, yoghurt treat things etc. Then just grab one of them out for him. Work out which ones he really likes and save those for when he does something super good I second what the others have said though. Teach him that playing with you is a fun experience and definitely a rewarding one. He needs to realise he is actually being rewarded lol. Try clicker training, trust me it makes agility so much easier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenalyn Posted July 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Barb - I wouldn't be too surprised if that's our problem too! As Kai gets older, I've been noticing that he's really a very soft dog. If he gets stressed, or something gets too difficult, or he thinks that he's not doing something right, he just shuts down. Something I've also noticed is that if I show a lot of interest in a toy, he backs off. He also refuses to take a toy from my hand, or anywhere too close by me. Bec - I've been focusing on one obstacle at a time for the most part, but the next time I start training him on agility stuff I'll mix it up more, like you suggest. I used clicker training to teach him initial obedience when he was a pup, but have since misplaced my clicker. Time to get a new one, I guess! Last night, my sister was trying to get him interested in playing with a toy. She wasn't doing exactly what was described in that link, but she was playing with it by herself and making highpitched noises, then she'd roll it away from him and he'd chase it. I came along and ruined things (unintentionally!) by trying to join in the game. I grabbed the toy, said, "Weee!" and threw it up in the air and caught it. Kai dashed to the nearest corner and hid. So I guess I learned what *not* to do! I'm planning on buying a new rope toy and attaching it to a bit of twine so I can drag it around. Hopefully he won't be scared of that. Thanks again, -Jenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catu Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 I read the link, it's very good and complete. I would, if necesary add some frustration putting a comfortable harness to the dog and attaching him to something. Psichology Nº1: You want what you can't reach. It makes the toy more desirable. As your dog is shy don't forget to use the line, this way not only the toy moves in a more interesting way, but you give space to the dog to feel comfortable with the game. His leash has to be always stretched, if it looks loose, then you are pushing too much. Step back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Nothing to add really. The advice has been wonderful. I would just like to again point out that the observation of your dog is crucial. Find out what matters to him. There has to be some toy, food, pine cone, action or maybe just a verbal "atta boy!" that matters to him more than other things. Find it. Like Bec pointed out, I do own a dog that LOVES the dog walk...she will do that anytime she can. Training is creating a habitual response to a certain stimuli. The reward will always be important but at a point most of my dogs will take great joy in just my happy response and the occaisional reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 I wonder if it's possible that he's decided anything less than stock isn't interesting enough blink.gif Entirely possible Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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