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Lots of good info here already. One other thing, though. If you can get an enzymatic cleaner such as Nature's Miracle, it works wonders on the odor. Once the scent is in place, it attracts the pup to go again in the same place.

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You're willing to physically punish your dog ("tap him on the nose"), but you're not willing to give him a den of his own ("crate") to sleep in? Does that really make sense?

 

We've all gone the "what me? crate my dog?" route, and pretty much everyone eventually figures out that crates do not look like prisons to dogs the way they do to us. You can make them look like prisons if you want, but you can also make them look like nice cozy dog dens. So darn many good things happen to my BC when he's in his crate that you should see him go charging in there the second I start to whisper "cr..." When life gets boring, he goes and stands, or lies, in his crate, hoping that it will cause something fun to happen...which it often does.

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It took us nearly a year and a half to potty train Meg and we had her at 7 weeks old. We had a crate. Hubby and I are fairly well attuned but I knew that neither of us would follow through keeping her on a six foot tether attached to us after we realized that not doing so had been our HUGE mistake. DO IT NOW. The older and more willful the dog becomes the harder it is to do. Until you wean her to a reliable and predictable response she is either on a leash or in her crate or right there within your line of sight. (Not on the other side of the desk obscured by the computer monitor.)

 

 

I also allowed myself the indulgence of acting out my frustrations by yelling and tapping Meg on the nose. This is an anger management problem with me and I am convinced that Meg's willful reluctance to be recalled now that she is a young adult, is completely the result of her disrespect for my 'unpredictable' behavior and our lack of tight control.

 

Did the yelling and tapping work? In a way... In those areas that she responded to such out of control behavior, I now can not get her to respond unless I DO yell. This is very very sad.

 

One last thing...puppies smell, make messes, get sick, and bite. They will not know better without lots and lots of consistent, calm, repetition. I strongly recommend that you go to puppy kindergarten with your pup. See if you can get hubby to go too. (I am still trying to train my husband not to just let Meg do what she wants on waking in the morning. I physcially scoot her out the door, and don't let her back in until I have 'seen' her poop and pee.

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Please be patient and for god sake GET A CRATE your puppy will be so much happier!! You cant scold a puppy, she's a baby you dont punish infants that have accidents. Listen I have raised 5 border collies the first two I was young and "didn't think a crate was fair" if I had only known then what Ive since learned, as happy as their lives were I know it could have been better. My dogs love their crates I now have three 2 bc's and a rat terrier all 3 love being able to have their own place.

I also went through a spell with Mac our 6 month old he did so well housebreaking then totally slid. But you know with time

and hard work on both our parts he finally got it! I never blamed him, he wants to please. I realized I needed to work harder. It was not his fault. I know you probably feel like you are working hard but please give a little more time. Don't smack or yell or rub your dogs nose in anything it doesn't work. Good luck and listen to the advice you get on the boards these people know and love border collies and want the best for them they wont steer you wrong!!

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Can i just say, my puppy is very happy here, she has everything she wants, gets lots of love and cuddles, gets played with in the garden alot, she is fed and watered, and she has a very nice bed in her own little space! I'm a bit upset that some of you have suggested otherwise. I was feeling very down this morning and a bit desperate for advice, surely we have all had times like this.

 

Anyway, i will say it again, i can now stop her from biting me by saying 'no', this is great, we are both so much happier, she had drawn blood plenty of times and i was feeling like i didn't want to spend time playing with her etc, so i see it as a great thing that she has realised that i don't like to be grabbed by her teeth the minute i walk in the room. And i do also have lots of doggy toys which i encourage her to chew instead.

 

 

As for the infection, she has had a very bad case of worms, so could this be a reason for the toilet training reversing?

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As for the infection, she has had a very bad case of worms, so could this be a reason for the toilet training reversing?

 

Possibly, but I agree with the others on the thread---your pup is very young yet. My dogs had accidents on up to a year old (and still do if I'm gone too long---let's face it, if I go to town and stay all morning, you can bet I'll find a loo somewhere. Why should I expect my dogs to hold it all day?

 

I was one of the people who swore up and down that crates were "cruel" and "inhumane". Fortunately for me, I had a friend who talked long and hard to me, convincing me to buy a crate. When I got Ethel, she got a crate as well.

 

Lucy and Ethel think the crates are their homes (and each has her own, and woe if one or the other gets in the wrong one---the offended "hostess" will make sure the trespasser knows she's in the wrong "house"). If I say, "Get in your house", they go jump in and stand there with tails wagging.

 

The crates have had another, rather unexpected benefit: When traveling, I put the dogs' crates in the back of my van. If I say, "Get in your house", they do---instantaneously. This is helpful when I'm taking them places; they're comfortable traveling (and not all over the inside of the car), and when we get to our destination, the crates go in with them and they're "at home". Comes in handy in hotels, etc.

 

Really, I couldn't have housetrained them without the crates. Please reconsider.

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we had crates for 3 days...but went with the doggie fence afterwards. oh man did they wee the house upside down. clover once aimed at an electric outlet and missed it by inches. but fortunately for us we almost have no incidents. it took skye ~1week and clover 2 weeks for 90% training. now they're so accustomed to their fenced in area that they treat it as their house...our like some people refer as their "safe haven". they won't leave their area even if the gate is wide open

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And i do also have lots of doggy toys which i encourage her to chew instead.

 

That's great - it does mean your house will look like a bomb site for a while - but it's worth it to have something 'chewable' immediately to hand everywhere you are.

 

I'm another one who says "crates are GREAT" (and so do my dogs) - and a big vote in favour of the 'umbilical cord' method of having the pup attached to you as you go about, unless pup is securely in a crate or an X-pen (another great thing to have - especially with a 2 year old human around - makes for easy separation when you can't be there to supervise. I used my 10 metre tracking lead as Kirra's 'umbilical cord' - tied round my waist, and adjusted to length I needed. Apart from the housetraining and general supervision benefits, having the pup 'attached' to you a lot of the time helps to build the bond between you.

 

A thing to consider is that as your 2 year old and the pup grow, the pup will need to be comfortable with being segregated from the child - e.g. when no adult is there to supervise, or when one or other needs a nap. Crate and x-pen will enable this to be done very happily - and will keep everyone safe.

 

And as others have said - it's not forever, even if it is you who ends up doing the early morning potty run - it's worth it. (Mine was about 2.00 am!), although you may well want to keep up the habits you will be forming. If my 5 year old dogs need occasionally to go out at night, I still take them out on the lead, so they know it's a 'business' outing, not an opportunity to chase wildlife.

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I had a chihuahua for a year, and boy are puppies different! When my mutt was a puppy it took me 2 days to housebreak her. Shes had only 3 accidents since we got her 7 years ago (2 puddles from a bladder infection and one smelly accident from dad giving her pizza.. all 3 accidents were on the chihuahuas training pads tho!) The chihuahua on the other hand *sigh* after a year she still wasn't even paper trained.

 

Hopefully with Shadow being at the breeders an extra 4 weeks things will go a lot smoother, pretty sure hes working on housebreaking her. At least if I need help I know where to go to get it! Also.. I'm a huge fan of praising good deeds and not usually punishing bad ones... unless your puppy pees in your bed... while you're asleep in it. Thats when I got her a kennel LOL, which she sat in all night whining like crazy and screaming like she was dying. Unfortunately I'd take out a VERY dirty, smelly puppy every morning. No other dog I've met was that dirty!

 

Maybe your partner will start helping more after he walks in a nice smelly doggy present one morning. :rolleyes:

 

Heather =)

 

EDIT: I've had 3 successfully kennel trained dogs of my own, and worked with a couple hundred more when I worked at the vets. Its by far the best way, didn't mean to sound like I didn't like it!! Kennels = awesome.

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Try and remember that while they are young, it is a one step forward and two steps back kind of process with a pupper.

 

They are not only trying to learn our language but also our rules, and that we expcet them to obey them!

Now that's alot of confusing stuff for a little baby to learn!

 

 

Also I completely agree on the crate issue. Not only are they a house saver but also a life saver. When you are pulling your hair out just pop puppy into the crate and have a bit of time for yourself. Just make it a pleasant experience and your pup won't mind. A tasty treat or fun toy, is a good bribe...lol.

 

Our Pepper had bad worms and an intestinal infection that had been let go, when we got her, and she had the smelliest diarrehea so I hear you.

 

BTW- What are you feeding your pup? Better foods lead to less waste and odor.

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t he also asks to go out many times when he dosent want the loo

 

I had this with Molly too. For two reasons: 1) we had snow and she wanted to eat the snow all the time. 2) she wanted to play. I solved this by NEVER playing with her if she asked to go out. We'd go out to the spot and she'd get lots of praise if she did her business. If she didn't, we came in again. No playing. Then I'd ignore any further OUT requests for 30-45 mins before trying again. Even if I felt like playing with her, I'd finish the potty walk routine and come in with her before going back out for a play. The snow problem solved itself when it melted. Then she had to learn to drink water (she'd only ever gotten milk before we got her and couldn't figure out to drink water). She'll still occasionally drag out me just so she can drink dew or rain water, but she's a BC. Gotta expect those quirks.

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As for the infection, she has had a very bad case of worms, so could this be a reason for the toilet training reversing?

 

YES! Until the worms are under control, don't expect her to be 100% reliable.

 

Good luck with your pup. They can be so frustrating sometimes but they're worth it.

 

Basically, any time your pup regresses, your first thought should be if anything might be medically wrong. Worms, infection, food change, treat, foreign object...

 

Molly had one accident in the kitchen not too long ago. I was sick and sleeping off a migraine with drugs and don't even know if she asked to go out. But it turned out she had eaten a FEATHER. No wonder her tummy had been a bit off all day.

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What a terrific bunch of posts and great advice, especially Pearse's!

 

Don't get offended - get a crate and put in the time it will take to train your still very young pup. As many have said, it's not cruel and it's well worth it. My young dog is the first I housebroke with crate-training, and was the easiest, least messy experience I've had house-breaking.

 

Also, as said, puppy mouthing/nipping is very normal but not acceptable on human skin. Let the pup know by a loud "ouch" when you've been nipped (just like another pup would do) that it's not acceptable. Stop moving if movement has precipitated the "attack". When the pup backs off, you can again go about your business and make sure you give the pup a "substitute" - a suitable chew toy or other item. Don't say "no" without giving a "yes" alternative for the pup to be occupied with.

 

Responsibly raising a pup takes a lot of time, effort, and thought but will reward you many times over with an enjoyable lifetime togther. Puppies are cute but, thank goodness, they do grow up - what type of companion they grow up to be is largely up to you. Remember that you are always training, whether or not you realize you are doing so. I always have to remind myself that what I neglect to do or do wrong, is training just as much as what I do deliberately or correctly, but it's not training what I want to train.

 

And I second getting an enzyme cleaner - you may feel you've cleaned up the spots so no scent remains but your pup will know otherwise. The more he goes in the house or in a particular location that isn't suitable, the harder the habit will be to break. Be on your guard - in addition to crating and timely trips outside (after eating, drinking, waking, playtime, etc.), be vigilant and observant. The pup's behavior (sniffing, circling, paying "attention" to the particular "trouble spots") will show you when he has to go and you need to get him outside right away.

 

Best wishes!

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You have already been given great advice so I will just add to that saying that crate training is certainly the way to go. If your pup has been having worms, are you using Strongid or Albon every 2 weeks and having regular fecal re-checks at the vet? GI upsets will certainly contribute to her not being able to hold her eliminations, but more importantly parasite loads can really harm puppies and regular vet checks are extremely important to get this problem under control.

 

When crate training buy a crate that is a little on the smaller side as if she has a large area then she will be more likely to soil it, as she won't have to lay near it. Dogs generally do not like lying in their own fecal matter and therefore a smaller crate will mean that your pup will be more likely to hold her eliminations.

 

Take her outside very regularly. With Kes, I used to set a timer for every 30 minutes to take her outside to potty when I was at home and then I gradually built that time up in 10-15 minute increments. Have a regular schedule and take your pup to potty before she eats and immediately after she eats. Take her out on a leash so that she doesn't have the chance to get distracted and go off chasing butterflies :rolleyes: . Use a command word every time for her, so that she associates that word with going potty. My dog will go on concrete if I tell her to. She views it just like any other command like a "sit" or a "lie". When your dog goes , give her lots of praise and tell her she was great. Give her another few minutes outside to ensure that she has definitely emptied herself. Puppies will often go and a small amount of urine will be left in their bladders as they don't have complete control of emptying it all. Thats why a lot of people get surprized when they bring their pup inside after pottying and she immediately goes inside the house again. Give her time and she gradually will learn to empty herself completely of all that she needs to do at that point in time.

 

The golden rule with pups is that they need to be taken outside immediately after playing/sleeping/eating/drinking. It really is not hard to potty train a puppy. It just takes perseverance and dedication from the owner. One thing which is pointless is to shout or run the dogs nose in it or show the mess as the dog will not have a baldy notion what you are talking about. This is because dogs have a short memory span to connect events and disciplinary actions together.

 

Enjoy your puppy!

 

Kat

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That's great - it does mean your house will look like a bomb site for a while - but it's worth it to have something 'chewable' immediately to hand everywhere you are.

 

I'm another one who says "crates are GREAT" (and so do my dogs) - and a big vote in favour of the 'umbilical cord' method of having the pup attached to you as you go about, unless pup is securely in a crate or an X-pen (another great thing to have - especially with a 2 year old human around - makes for easy separation when you can't be there to supervise. I used my 10 metre tracking lead as Kirra's 'umbilical cord' - tied round my waist, and adjusted to length I needed. Apart from the housetraining and general supervision benefits, having the pup 'attached' to you a lot of the time helps to build the bond between you.

 

A thing to consider is that as your 2 year old and the pup grow, the pup will need to be comfortable with being segregated from the child - e.g. when no adult is there to supervise, or when one or other needs a nap. Crate and x-pen will enable this to be done very happily - and will keep everyone safe.

 

And as others have said - it's not forever, even if it is you who ends up doing the early morning potty run - it's worth it. (Mine was about 2.00 am!), although you may well want to keep up the habits you will be forming. If my 5 year old dogs need occasionally to go out at night, I still take them out on the lead, so they know it's a 'business' outing, not an opportunity to chase wildlife.

 

 

LOL my house already looks like a bomb site with the 2 year old so a few doggy toys won't make that much difference!!!

 

Also, what is an X-pen??

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An x-pen is a portable, "crate-like" pen you can set up inside, outside, wherever. It allows the pup some freedom but within reasonable limits. I'd say the diameter is about 5' or so when it's set up. Unlike a crate, it has no floor or top but, with multiple wall panels, it can be set up as a round or rectangle.

 

I wouldn't leave an animal totally unattended in one because I don't think they are secure enough, but they do offer confinement and security to a certain extent, as well as room to romp. Many folks use them very successfully so I am sure they are more secure than they look. You can buy them at KV Vet Supply or any other source of good dog equipment.

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An X-pen is a folding wire exercise pen that you can get from places that sell dog supplies. It's made of heavy guage wire, the ends are connected with snaps (some are tall enough to have doors in one panel; others do not) and can be taken down and set up anywhere. I used several connected together to contain the litter I had. It was easy to spread newspapers down and then set the pen up and put the pups inside. It gives a little more room than a crate, and has the advantage of no actual "floor" so you can put absorbent material down and then move the pen out of the way when you need to pick the material up again for clean up. Here's an example:

 

http://www.sitstay.com/store/equip/xpens.s...CFRJwZQod9mHt7w

 

AS my X-pens are no longer needed to contain puppies, they have ended up doing "double duty" by enclosing my raised herb bed to keep the dogs from tromping through.... :rolleyes:

 

ETA: Oops. I see that Sue already answered the question. That's what I get for not noticing that there's a page 3. I'll leave my post anyway, since I did include a picture.

 

J.

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