returned dogs

[kelpiegirl]

Hmmm. I would not send them another dog, no matter what. It sounds like they misrepresented themselves to you, and if they couldn't use the dog because they didn't know HOW, then they don't need another dog like it. Perhaps thinking of breeding if would "get something" out of the dog. Since you have the dog back, I would believe that you need to refund their money- as distasteful as it is. I would add in the future, have this written down- what will happen if the dog is not working out, due to dog versus new owner issues.

Julie

ps: I wouldn't be surprized if you heard back from them, wanting the dog back... Tough.

[Catu]

I wouldn't refund them, they are the ones that made the mistake and as say, the money thing can be the only one that could make them understand the responsability of their acts and think twice next time. But IF, and just if, they claim that if you don't refund them then they want the dog back (wich is doubtful to me, as they wanted to dog to be so quickly back with you and as the dog is so maniac and nasty and disgusting...), then you should give them the money back, in behalf of the dog. Otherwise is like to buy mistreated puppies in petshops by pity, you would be supporting the vicious circle.

[JLP]

If refunding there money wasnt going to keep me from eating I would. Seeing the dog is back home. Just take it as a lesson learnt for the next time you sell a started dog.

[AK dog doc]

Regardless of whether or not you refund the money, I'd never never place another dog with these people. They misrepresented themselves and their skill level, and whether that was intentional or accidental, their expectations for the dog were unrealistic, not to mention that they seriously overestimated their own skills. To me both these things suggest poor judgement. I'm disturbed by the "call to inquire about breeding her" thing, particularly in view of their apparant ignorance in dog matters. Both of those would be deal breakers for me, but to me the real bottom line is that they threatened to kill the dog if you didn't take it back. To me that says that they are cruel and irresponsible. I would do whatever it takes not to have to have contact with them in the future, and I would never NEVER consider placing a live animal in their cruel and thoughtless hands.

 

FWIW, if it ws me, I'd smile at them, return their money graciously, and thank them for returning the dog to me - but I'd never return another thing to them, not even a phone call. I'd consider myself well shed of them.

[mobcmom]

I'm no expert , but I would also be a little worried about the legal ramifications, since there was no paperwork. From what little I understand dogs are generally considetred property. I would think that if you refunded their money, you would then have "legal"ownership of the dog/property back and able to take care of him as you see fit.

 

It is such a shame there is not more commom sense in the world; be careful of flaky people.

 

mobcmom

[BustopherJones]

This dog was supposed to be her husbands only and according to her bonded instantly and powerfully to her husband. In fact when he had to let my husband take her to our car yesterday and take her away he started to cry.

We have a similar situation. Annie bonded to me immediately, rather than DW (who has always been our dogs' favorite in the past). But I could never visualize DW doing that to me; she has often said that she knows it would break my heart if I had to give Annie up (which I would reluctantly do if it was in the best interests of the dog). I also feel for the husband, because I can understand how he feels; I just don't comprehend how the wife could do that to the man she supposedly loves...

[Jack & Co.]

^^^^^What AK Dog Doc said!

[justdogs]

Hi all, I just got on this thread and I would like to put my mistake out there to ponder. Sorry it is long.

 

After I had to put my first BC down, my childhood pet, I met a gal with a great red and white male.

Her brother lived next door to the breeder and said there was a 7mo old male full sib to this dog. The breeder's wife was having surgery/cancer, and they did not have time for the pup. The Brother said it was too much dog for him.

 

So off I went to get myself another dog. When I got there I met the parents and the pup. He was actually a year old by then, and had never left the farm. He had a ton of coat and was fat. He did not look like either parent. The breeder said he looked like the grandma, a through back. I asked to see the dog on sheep, but the breeder said the pup wouldn't work yet, too young. I did not know anything, but liked the look of him and asked to take him home for two weeks.

 

I brought him home and he would not eat. He tore up a kennel and tried to rip up our back door when left alone. He would be depressed when with us. With just losing my first BC, I realized that I could not make this intact male happy. I returned him 2 weeks later, gave his papers and heart meds and flea meds back. I wish I had sent him off to a rescue group (didn't know about them at that time in my life). It took me another 9 months to finally get another dog. It was from the pound, a mutt. I only finally got a BC for herding a few years ago, when I was finally ready.

 

I never got my $250 back from the guy. Why I did not insist on a contract or only give a deposit, I don't know. He said since I couldn't prove the dog would not work sheep, that I had no course to get my money back. He said if he ever sold the dog again, he would send me my money back. He told me that in the past he got a dog back that was injured and that he was never going to get ripped off again, so he couldn't pay me back, he would just sell the dog for me. He wasn't there when I dropped the dog off. I felt SO BAD!!! But the dog finally wagged his tail when he got back home. I had a rental. I couldn't keep a dog that would tear it up. The dog was so shut down I never even took it to the sheep farm. I couldn't get him to interact at the horse farm.

 

I called up a few months later to see how the dog was, and he hung up on me. The dog would be 10 years old now.

 

I am still bitter over the situation. I never should have even brought the dog home. But To keep my money because I made a mistake and never to talk to me again seems VERY wrong!! People make up all sorts of things to make them feel better about giving a dog back. I still wonder if the dog ever was happy. Is he still alive?

 

For you, the best thing is that they actually contacted you to give the dog back. They could have just shot it, dumped it, etc. It is a small world, it would be best to make sure everyone feels good about bringing a dog back to you even if you do not sell many.

 

If you give the money back, then you owe them nothing and they don't feel like the still own the dog. Please do not be really bad to them. Maybe they just need to learn what a real herding dog is supposed to do? Maybe they just need some help?

 

Next time ask for the full check, Make sure it cashes and set up a schedule that after a month full refund given that the dog is not injured. And then in writing that you will take dog back at any time...but not for a full refund. Cover your bases, but not be too hard, or the dog will just disappear. Be careful selling an intact dog without paper work requiring good breeding practices.

 

For this time, please give at least some (half?) of the money back, and try not to be too bitter. I certainly would not sell them another dog unless they are working with someone to train the dog are certain that they want and can handle.

 

I say this because it is the farmers and ranchers that will keep Border Collies are real working dogs. Have your read the new CA bill on Spay Neuter? The people (good or bad) that own livestock are the ones that will keep working dogs from being delegated to show/pets, if they learn how to use them. But breeders are also the ones that need to keep them out of the hand of poor owners.

 

Good luck!!

 

name withheld to protect my mistake...

[Beth G]

We have a similar situation. Annie bonded to me immediately, rather than DW (who has always been our dogs' favorite in the past). But I could never visualize DW doing that to me; she has often said that she knows it would break my heart if I had to give Annie up (which I would reluctantly do if it was in the best interests of the dog). I also feel for the husband, because I can understand how he feels; I just don't comprehend how the wife could do that to the man she supposedly loves...

 

Ditto!

[OkieJen]

This topic was very interesting to me so I thought I'd share my "wanting to return" story. We had a six month old red and white male that we couldn't find a home for with the rest of the litter and I had decided to keep the pup and train him myself, but someone spotted him online and was in love. So they visited and decided to buy him. I found out later that they had bought him as a gift for someone else and once they got him to his destination, the person didn't want him. They had already bought another puppy and didn't like the color or markings of my pup. So, we got a phone call that they wanted to return him. My only hesitation was that I had another female that had pups due in a week and I had all but one already sold. So, I told them I would give them half of their money back and that they were going to sign another contract saying they would be responsible for any vet bills or losses I had from the pup bringing something back to my place. If the dog hadn't been running around with this other pup it wouldn't have been such a problem, but I didn't have any idea what the pup had been exposed to at this point and I felt compelled to protect my animals. They were outraged and said that it wasn't their fault, that they hadn't known the other person wasn't going to want the dog. They also tried to say that in my contract it said I would give them a full refund. Nope, only IF the dog was unhealthy. It was in my contract that I would take back any dog for any reason, but nowhere did it mention a refund. Also, they knew about my litter that was due and wanted a pup instead of their money back. There was no way I was going to allow another of my babies to fall into such irresponsible hands. I felt that they were very irresponsible to buy this pup as a gift and not even ask the person if they wanted one. This was really difficult for me because I wanted my pup back too. We never heard back from them and assumed the worst. I worried about that guy for a long time and I always wonder if I had made the wrong decision, but a couple months ago they called again asking us to send them another transfer of ownership because the pup had sired a litter of pups, he wasn't even a year old yet! I was furious! Thankfully it was my husband who had taken the call and he told them to talk to the ABCA and we haven't heard back from them. Just wanted to share that. What would you all have done in that situation? Hope I never have to deal with it again!

 

Jenna

[Marilyn T]

My opinion regarding the refund is as follows. It sort of depends on how much money you are talking about. If you got say 1500 for the dog since she was started (not an unreasonable price) that is pretty steep for keeping. In that case I would refund about half since they misrepresented themselves and their knowlege about dogs, but threatened you with euthinasia on the girl. If it was less, more like a puppy price of 400-500, then don't refund anything. It is more than worth that in grief and aggravation. Like AK Doc, I would never have anything else to do with them. Glad she is back in your hands.

[nancy in AZ]

So Jenna, did they outright lie to you about their intentions for gifting the pup? It seems like this should have come out during a purchase interview or application.

[OkieJen]

Nancy,

 

Not outright lying. They informed us that he was going to be a gift for the pastor of their church, which I was a bit uneasy about in the first place and I should have gone with my gut reaction. Why I didn't? Who knows! Stupidity I guess! The part they lied about was the fact that he was aware of their intentions and that they had sent him pictures of the pup and that he was really excited to be getting him. They just told me what I wanted to hear, because that was the first question I asked when they informed me he was going to be a gift and then when they got him there the guy obviously didn't have a clue, otherwise he wouldn't have gone out and got his own pup.

 

Jenna

[Lenajo]

I don't provide gift pups unless the giftee is involved in the planning and contract. Even if its a child. And if its a child, I want the parents to take absolute responsiblity as if it as going to be their dog.

 

You would be surprised at home many gifting people and parents won't do that. I've even had to go toe to toe with parents of kids they felt were never going to leave home "'cause she's Daddy's girl, or Momma's boy" Yeah right. And when she does what 99% of kids do, "grows up!", somebody has to take care of the dog.

 

As for taking pups back - it should be an absolute yes. Its not the pups fault you had another litter on the ground. Board the pup, put it with a friend, isolate it, whatever is needed just *take it back!* Don't let it be passed hand to hand, home to home, producing pups! Be glad you got the chance to get it back at all.

 

For the started dog, given the short timeframe I would give the money back and be done with it. Be glad you got your dog back without mental and physical injury from such fools.

 

Be careful with contracts. I've been the victim of a real piece of work who tried to gouge me for 5 times the puppy price to "cover her expences", which included training bills and vet bills that were the result of an accident. Be clear, and be prepared financially to go to court to enforce it. There are some real nasty people out there who are hiding behind the mask of "dog lover".

[SoloRiver]

As for taking pups back - it should be an absolute yes. Its not the pups fault you had another litter on the ground. Board the pup, put it with a friend, isolate it, whatever is needed just *take it back!* Don't let it be passed hand to hand, home to home, producing pups! Be glad you got the chance to get it back at all.

 

What she said.

[MrSnappy]

What she said.

 

Ditto. Also, if you couldn't even sell an entire litter why did you put another on the ground?

 

Gah, never mind. I'm sure the answer won't be anything I want to hear anyway.

 

RDM

[OkieJen]

RDM,

 

And that's precisely why I've been a member and read all the posts and rarely post myself. It's because of people like you. You are so quick to judge and never read all the facts before jumping to conclusions. If you had read my original post you would have seen that I said I had decided to keep the pup and train him for myself. You also would have read that all the pups from my second litter were already sold. Please take time to read posts thoroughly before lashing out and running more people off. Everyone is here because they have something in common, and it's a love for Border Collies, let's try to remember that.

 

Lenajo,

 

I wish I had taken the pup back! I'd give just about anything to go back and do things over again, but I guess that's what life is all about. Live and learn...

 

Jenna

[Jack & Co.]

RDM's comment doesn't seem like jumping to a conclusion to me, just an observation from a BC rescuer.

 

You did say in the OP that you had decided to keep the pup and train him but someone saw him online and wanted him.....and you sold him without being sure of his final destination. Just my take on what you wrote.

 

but someone spotted him online and was in love

[MrSnappy]

You're right. I misread it. I was so annoyed by the idea that you sold a pup to (an irresponsible) someone who "fell in love with him" yet was giving him away (odd), and you had another litter on the ground so wouldn't take the pup back. And then that dog went on to sire yet another litter.

 

It's annoying because "people like me" clean up after ... well, anyway.

 

RDM - 450 dogs down, thousands more to go

[Laurae]

Where is that dang banging-head-against-wall icon?

 

You're right. I misread it. I was so annoyed by the idea that you sold a pup to (an irresponsible) someone who "fell in love with him" yet was giving him away (odd), and you had another litter on the ground so wouldn't take the pup back. And then that dog went on to sire yet another litter.

 

It's annoying because "people like me" clean up after ... well, anyway.

 

RDM - 450 dogs down, thousands more to go

[OkieJen]

I can't win with you people, so I am not even going to try. I've been there before trying to defend myself and it really isn't worth getting myself upset again. I was asking for suggestions about what people would have done if they had ever been in that particular situation, I didn't ask for people to judge me and try to make me feel like crap. You all need to learn to keep your noses out of it if you don't have something productive to say or suggest. I have learned leaps and bounds since a year ago and am whole-heartedly commited to this breed. Since all of this happened I began promoting rescue. I have sent SEVERAL people who have been looking for a pet to the BC rescue forum when they were interested in one of my pups. I have turned down several potential owners that I just didn't have a good feeling about. I also donate $ to BC's in need. There I go again trying to defend myself.... Make your judgements about me and I'll just go back to reading the posts as I have done in the past and feel sorry for the other people that get attacked on this forum. Just a suggestion... why not try and educate people instead of "cleaning up after" them. Ever heard of the phrase "You can get farther with honey than with vinegar." If I had had someone there to help me earlier on then I wouldn't have made the mistakes that I had in the past, but look where it got me to seek help. Just a thought...

 

Jenna

[Laurae]

Jenna,

I apologize for my snarky response. That was uncalled for. But in your original post, you outlined several actions on your part that showed poor judgment and a lack of responsibility for the life you created, which you acknowledge resulted in backyard-bred pups on the ground--many of whom would be lucky to end up in the hands of rescuers like RDM, considering the likely places they did or will end up. I can tell you what I would have done differently:

1. I would not have sold a pup to someone I knew was giving him to an unknown party.

2. I would have not produced another litter just a few months later.

3. I would have taken the pup whose life I was responsible for creating back, no matter what. Period. In a heartbeat.

 

I'm glad to hear that you now point prospective buyers to rescue and donate when you can. But I hope you have also changed the breeding practices and philosophies that got you (and your pup, and his pups) in this position in the first place.

[sharkie]

about...er...i dont remember logging in....hmmm...strange

 

anyways, about giving a pup as a gift you should actually write a note to the other party stating,

 

"i know you have been wanting dog and so i've decided to accompany you this saturday to the local shelter, and if you happen to find your perfect canine friend i'll pay the adoption fee for you."

[Jenalyn]

It sounds to me like Jenna was trying to do right by her dogs and reacted the best she knew how at the time. It also sounds like she learned from the experience and has been trying to improve her breeding practices. Sure. She made a mistake in the past, but I'd be surprised if there are many breeders out there who haven't.

 

Just my two cents.

 

To the OP: Sorry for getting so much off topic!

 

 

-Jenny

[AK dog doc]

What would you all have done in that situation?

 

You all need to learn to keep your noses out of it if you don't have something productive to say or suggest.

 

... why not try and educate people instead of "cleaning up after them".

 

Well, you did ask for input. Why would you then get angry and attack people when they answer you - at YOUR request, I might add? Because you didn't like some of the opinions of those who responded? If you didn't want to hear what people thought, maybe you shouldn't have asked them for input.

 

AFAICS, people WERE trying to educate. I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings, but the bottom line is that you asked for input and you got it. You obviously aren't happy about what you got, but them's the breaks. You didn't post, "Please only reply if you can assure me that I didn't screw up, and don't ask me any uncomfortable questions." You opened that door. If you really DO want to know what people think, if you really ARE interested in bettering yourself and becoming a better steward of the breed, then taking a good hard humble look at what walked through the door you opened is a place to start - no matter how uncomfortable it might be to do so.

 

It's all very well and good that you're pointing people to rescue and that you donate there yourself, and I both applaud you and hope you continue to do so. However, why on EARTH would you then turn around and criticize someone who, just like you, ALSO advocates rescue and gives of herself and her resources? - FAR more than most of us will ever do, I will point out. I will also point out that RDM is not breeding ANY dogs, no matter how responsibly, so she is clearly NOT adding to the surplus BC problem. The bottom line is that you DID increase the problem (however inadvertanly) because a pup of your breeding, who you had the chance to remove from the irresponsible-breeder pool, is now the sire of at least one litter that was NOT responsibly bred (if it was responsibly bred, they would not be calling you AFTER THE FACT seeking papers.... and just as a BTW, the internet is not the best place to find responsible buyers... or breeders, actually.) Who knows where it will go from there? Since they were irresponsible, there's at least a reasonable chance that they will not carefully screen their buyers to be sure THEY are responsible, so even more puppies might result down the line. I for one thank the Powers That Be that there are people like RDM who ARE willing to "clean up after" the mistakes of others, however well-meaning, accidental or borne of ignorance they might be. Yes, I know you're now kicking yourself and wishing fervently that you had taken the pup back - but the fact reamins that you DID make the mistake of not taking him back, and we are all responsible for what we DO in the world, not just what we INTEND. The job of RDM and others like her just got harder. I can't really blame her for being aggravated.

 

So, I'm sorry if you're offended by what people have had to say, but again: you did ask. If you can set aside your ruffled feathers for a minute, and really LOOK at what the consequences of your choices are, maybe you'll get some of that education that you talked about. If you sincerely want it. You said that had you had someone helping you before, when you declined to take that puppy back, you might not have made that mistake. Well, now you have people (trying to) help you keep from making another such mistake. You can complain about their methods all you want, but they ARE trying to help, even if you don't like their tone.

 

Maybe you can catch more flies with honey (as the saying actually goes) - but in the world of stockdogs, sometimes a correction is called for. You can't just praise a stockdog into getting it right; sometimes you have to say "NO! None of that!" Any stockdog worth its salt won't just shut down or go off and sulk at the first correction. It'll take the correction and try to do it better the next time, even under pressure, and it'll keep facing up, even when corrected, til it gets it right.