Widening out/giving distance betweent dog and stock

[Guest kimkathan]

Any advice on how to widen out a young dog and give some distance between it and the stock? I've been trying to lie her down when she cuts in tight and walk up between her and the sheep and resend her? It seems as though it's just not getting through to her this way as we've been doing it for over a month like this and still no change. I also tried to walk in toward her shoulder when she's working and it will bump her out for about 180 degrees and then she's right back in. This perticular dog NEEDS to have distance off the sheep as she's become keen and powerful. If she's not back off the sheep, the sheep are constantly moving and won't settle. If she's back further (around 20') they settle right down and will move slowly as she moves in. She's still a young dog and doesn't like it when things are slow and will cut in just to see the action.

[Guest aurdank]

It depends on whether the dog is moving the sheep in a line, either driving or fetching, or if it is asked to flank. I teach the dog to widen its flank with a "keep" command that also has a whistle equivalent, but I'm not in favor of pushing a young dog off of its stock while driving or fetching. Even in widening the flank, I am careful not to widen it so far that it goes out of contact. Pushing the dog off of its stock weaknens it and if done excessively can discourage it from coming on altogether or can frustrate it so that when it is finally allowed to engage the sheep, it resorts to gripping. So you have to be careful.

 

In fetching or driving, I teach the dog to pace. The dog should develop over time an ability to rate its stock, that is, to guage how far it needs to be to move the sheep in a calm, workmanlike fashion. If the dog starts putting too much pressure on the stock, such that they begin to move too fast, I would give a "stand" command (not a lie down which breaks the action too radically; the dog should always remain on its feet while moving sheep. Then I'd give a slow walk up followed by the steady command (I've described this in previous posts to you). The dog should resume walking more slowly; if it doesn't, you need to repeat the expercise, until it finally begins to do as you ask. This might mean giving it a "stand" each time it starts forward too quickly until it starts forward slowly. Eventually, you would be able to just give the steady command and it should respond; if it doesn't, then "stand" it and start slowly again.

 

To teach the widening of the flank, I have the dog circle the sheep with me standing next to them at the center. As it circles, I step in toward it and raise my crook and say "keep", and it widens, not necessarily a great deal, but just enough to take some of the pressure off the stock. Often the dog will turn in on balance as it circles, and I might step in as it does so, raise my crook and say keep, so that it not only continues to flank but will also widen out a bit. Doing this when the dog turns in on balance teaches the dog to flank off-balance and it also drives home the point about keeping wider. Now the dog in widening should not be so wide that it loses contact with the stock for reasons that I mentioned above.

 

This exercise comes in handy too when you train the dog to widen at the top of the outrun. The outrun is really only a large flank. Lie the dog down at a designated distance, or have it stand. Walk to your sheep and stand near them, to the right of them slightly (the dog's left), if you are going to send the dog to its right, and vice-versa. Send the dog and as it approaches 2 O'Clock, step in toward it and raise the crook and say "keep"; if the dog is particularly sensitive, it may respond better to a release of pressure rather than the application of pressure, in which case you might step backward and raise your crook and say "keep". You can also devise a whistle command that would serve as the equivalent of the verbal "keep". This teaches the dog to self-correct as it is doing its outrun, to kick out and go wide around the sheep if it approaches them too closely. This is something that needs to be drilled, though a more natural dog will take to it fairely quickly. Gradually you can lengthen the distance between dog and sheep and shorten the distance between yourself and the dog, and eventually send the dog from your side. But the key thing is that it develops the habit of kicking out as it reaches the top and going wide behind the sheep (but again not out of contact). Then its lift can be poised and the fetch can begin promisingly.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Albion

[Guest kimkathan]

Now when sending a dog on an outrun/gather, would you give just the flank and then say "keep" as they start to bump in, or, give the flank and "keep" (away..keep or keep..away) as they start out if you know that they are going to cut in too close?

[Guest aurdank]

As the dog begins to cut in, or actually as it begins to start thinking about cutting in but hasn't yet committed itself, I say "keep" or give the whistle equivalent. Saying "away" in this context is redundant from the dog's viewpoint, because it is already going "away". Now if the dog doesn't take the "keep", but starts cutting in anyway, despite also the the pressure of my walking toward him or her, I make it stand. Then follow with a "keep" or "get out", or a widening whistle, as I move toward it. Then I follow the dog around using the crook as guide just to make sure it goes wide and deep at the top. Standing the dog and kicking it out is a necessary correction when it doesn't respond to "keep" on the fly, and frequently you need to use it with a young dog. Indeed, when sending from the side, if the dog starts cutting in and doesn't respond to a "keep" on the fly, this is what you'll need to do. But hopefully the dog will develop the habit of kicking out at the right moment, when it encounters the sheep, or staying wide, without handler intervention. The point is to get the dog to work as naturally as possible.

 

Albion

[Guest aurdank]

I should have added though that my "keep" whistle" is really an elongated version of the flank command, whether go-bye or away.