Show BC Breeder...

[punkrockbc]

Ok... so, there is a Border Collie female named Belle training with my Flyball team. Her owner brought her to classes while in heat last week , and I got into a conversation with her about her decision to breed Belle. She is a very sweet dog, but I for real thought she must be mixed with a spaniel or a Golden, because the most BC thing about her is her markings, period. Belle has cleared health certs, and is AKC pointed. I think she only needs 1 major before she's a Champion. The owner has bred Papillons and is involved in Papillon rescue, she got a BC because she wanted a bigger dog to show, because bending over so much to show her Paps was getting harder with age (LOL at that one). But, I'm positive the pups would be well raised and socialized. Belle has never seen livestock, but she does a bit of Agility & Flyball with her for fun.

 

Other people on the team seem to support her, but me & the one other really enthusiastic BC lady are kind of sick over it. Belle is super mild-mannered and a dog that could be trusted with about anything, but I have never seen an ounce of intensity in her. She's stocky (about 15 lbs larger than my male BC), fluffy, short-muzzled, & tires after a few runs. Besides that, she just does not care about working either way... and she's super slow! I mean, she's a nice dog, but literally a black & white Golden Retriever (a show-bred Golden, of course). I have never seen her actually focus on the ball, her owner, other dogs, n o t h i n g. This dog basically bumbles around, like "Ohhh, a ball", and does not even pick it up or bring it back half the time. When I met her, I thought she may be a senior dog, but she isn't even 2 years old!

 

I don't know if I want to say something to the owner or not. I feel like she looks at me as inferior, because I am a teenager, and I wouldn't want her to get mad at me... I would just like to say SOMETHING instead of just staring in shock! She expressed to me that she plans to breed Belle on her next heat in the fall. I was asking what kind of studs she was looking into (hoping maybe it'd be a working dog?), and she said she would be line-breeding to her brother who is a conformation CH OR to an unrelated CH. To breed to her brother must be like, the worst possible breeding ever, I feel. Any ideas? You guys are definitely the best people to turn to for this.

 

This is Belle: (note the intensity when retrieving the ball )

 

 

This is Bailey, the other BC-enthusiast's working-bred dog. She is beginning to trial on sheep already and she's just over 1 year old. She's also nearly done with Flyball training, even though she has chasing habits. Belle's owner has made rude comments about Bailey's white content, of all things!:

 

[BustopherJones]

I feel like she looks at me as inferior, because I am a teenager

Age is not a condition of wisdom; and personally, I have come to value insight rather than experience. Teenagers can often see the truth more clearly than adults; as Steven Wright once said, "The older you get, the more you learn to see what you've been taught to see. When you're a kid, you see what's there."

[bc friend]

Belle looks like a lot my bc/springer Katie - same short muzzle, stockiness, heavy feathering, etc. and appears to have the same "intensity" towards work or balls. I am truly surprised that she is nearing a championship in conformation as a BC. Maybe you could ask her owner why she wants to breed her and lead into a conversation about how she thinks it would help improve the breed. If you are courteous about it and not trashing her dog, IMO most people would not be offended just because you're a teenager. Since she is involved in Pap rescue, maybe this conversation would help her rethink her goals with Belle. Good luck!

[Dixie_Girl]

Bustopher is correct. For adults to dismiss what a youngun says because of their age is as silly as younguns dismissing what an adult says. Ideas and advice should always be considered on the merit of the idea and advice, not the age of the giver. I would not advise getting into a screaming match with the person, but certainly say something. For one, ask what chrarateristics of her dog is going to improve the BC breed? What is the breeding going to produce as far as making the pups better BCs. She has already shown her ignorance by making rude comments about Bailey. When she talks about how pretty Belle is and her markings etc., give a half smile and say, yeah, she's pretty, but can she work sheep? No, probly not, your dog couldn't handle the stress of it, can hardly handle fly ball. Walk away at this point. She will probly be swelling like a toad and ready to explode. But that's just me. Most grownups didn't like me when I was young. They mostly tolerate me now!

 

Good for you for recognizing ignorance. Listen for better advice, which I am sure you will get.

[Kat's Dogs]

I am a teenager, yet here I am all the same - helping people train their dogs and give advice and such.

 

Yet I know what you mean. FEELING and knowing that it is wrong to breed this dog is different then going out and saying that to the owner.

 

Does the owner know about the whole BC/show/working dog conflict? If not, then she might just need some edjucation on the subject - some people (even people who have BCs) have no idea about the show/working split! If she already knows, and has chosen a side, then it might be hard to change her mind. But wow, scary how much the dog looks like a short aussie - and next to Bailey, all lean and sleek and FAST looking!

 

Chances are, this person won't hold a life long grudge against you because you told her that maybe she shouldn't breed her dog. It is well worth it if you can stop just ONE show breeding. Good luck to you.

[AK dog doc]

Just a thought... if she has already made "rude comments" about the color of another BC's coat, two things: One, if she's that into appearance and not ability she may take offense to having someone point out that her "correctly marked" alleged BC might not be a good breeding prospect and that all she really has going for her IS her color - so be prepared that she may take offense; and two, IMO if she's going to make insulting comments about other people's dogs, she has lost her right to expect other people to keep thier mouths shut about HER dog. I personally think there's no need to be rude about it, but it may be that she does NOT know about the breed schism, or if she does, she may not know why, so a mannerly (if spirited) discourse on the matter may be instructive to her - and at least you'd know that your conscience was clear. You would at that point have bowed to the dictates of your conscience and spoken up about something of importance, no matter how well or how badly recieved. I personally have to pipe up most of the time. This gets me in a certain amount of hot water, but my nature is not to shut up when I see something wrong happening. That might just be me, though. You're the best person to judge what the consequences of speaking would be - but bear in mind there are consequences to being silent, as well, and it's up to you to choose which you prefer to live with.

[Kyrasmom]

Chances are, from what you've said, that anything you say will fall on deaf ears and possibly a rude mouth but if I were you, I would probably say something, polite, concise, and to the point.

 

The way I look at it is that it can go either way, she may get rude with you and walk off in a huff with her correctly marked (though even for show standards not terribly impressive) dog or she may learn something. I can never pass up even the remotest chance to say something that MAY impact something I care about.

 

Just remember to be polite, don't get into anything unpleasant, possibly offer a link to this site or print some material for her, and if it doesn't go well for you, it's not like you lost a friend and you can pat yourself on the back for trying.

 

Good luck

Maria

[Pipedream Farm]

You could answer with......

 

There are two schools of thought on breeding: breeding for looks (conformation) and breeding for function. I ascribe to the notion that breeding choices should be based upon the function not asthetics.

 

Mark

[punkrockbc]

Thanks for all of the very practical advice. =0) It helps put my mind at ease to know I'm not the *only* one who sees that this girl, although cute, is built & bred to lay on a couch, not work in rough terrain all day every day. I posted this earlier at an all-dog board that I frequent more often, and many of the replies I got referred to Belle as "obviously prettier" than Bailey & my BC boy... which I feel bad about.

 

The gist of what she has said to Bailey's owner is "Where did you get her? Why would anyone breed for that much white?" and once, "He is skinny, what are you feeding him?"(about Gonzo, who is 5 years old and 85,483,445x more athletic/smart/attentive than Belle... and is fed Raw for the record ^^). And while Bailey is from very notable trialing dogs. Me and Bailey's mom usually roll our eyes and ignore it, she just seems to have a blunt personality, which is partly why I'm afraid to say something.

 

I think I am going to print parts of the Stickies out from this board and give them to her, and also ask her if she feels Belle betters the breed. She acts sooo high & mighty about everything and as though her dog is flawless... I just hope she has more of an open mind about it. I mean, her dog is very sweet & I'm sure a great companion, but I feel she should've stuck with Papillons if she wants to produce companions only! And, she is either definitely on the "show side", or she just thinks working BC's are from BYB's or something. It's evident that she knows very little about the breed. I would even say that I'm more suited to breed Gonzo (neutered!) than she is to breed Belle, and that just proves that this girl is not a true BC, because I have never even considered breeding my goofy boy. Ever.

 

LOL Mark. I just might say that! It's definitely to the point.

[Keith Ramsay]

Ye' Old AKC breeding...

 

Yep, she has no idea what a BC is. Mark summed it up perfectly.

 

There are two schools of thought on breeding: breeding for looks (conformation) and breeding for function. I ascribe to the notion that breeding choices should be based upon the function not asthetics.

Never discount your opinion because of your age. The only thing you need to do is watch how you deliver it. Right is right... unless you are arguing with someone that does not get the logic. At that point, I have said it again and again.

 

Never argue with stupid people,

they will drag you down to their level,

and beat you with experience.

[punkrockbc]

thanks, Keith! That last quote is really invaluable. I need to remind myself of that more often! =P

 

I know I should not feel belittled because of my age. I feel I have way more experience with the breed than she does, at 40+ years my senior. I also feel that a some of the new people (including Belle's owner) with MUCH "easier" dogs think Gonzo's chasing incidences are all my fault. It gets kind of annoying when people who assume I know absolutely nothing about dogs ask me if I know how to stretch Gonzo, or why isn't my Mom/Dad handling my dog (I haven't heard this one for a while, thank GOD), if I need help, if I'm feeding him a good diet for a performance dog (while they feed Eukanuba )... etc!

[sandra s.]

Keith, last week someone insulted me, and while I was kicking myself because I couldn't think of anything to say back to them that would make things right, thinking of that quote of yours just about saved my day. Thanks!

 

or why isn't my Mom/Dad handling my dog

Yikey! I'm pathetically peace-loving but that would be the end of all politeness.

 

If you're "lucky" you'll end up looking younger than you are, like I do, and then you can enjoy it well into your twenties . People (make that "men") still ask me if I'm "all alone here" in the mountains - city boys who need a GPS to find their way home...ok sorry I'll stop .

 

I agree with what Mark said. She'll probably ask you why, and then you can try to make her understand what is happening to the breed. At least you'll have tried!

[painted_ponies]

You've answered some of my questions about how well BC's would do as conformation dogs. I used to show conformation and can't imagine Violet (my BC) being anything other than a royal pain with the relatively limited amount of activity a dog on the show circuit normally has.

 

So I guess the AKC crowd is breeding for low-energy as well as for more coat and bone. I reckon after a decade or so show BC's and working BC's will be two distinct breeds for all intents and purposes. Didn't that happen with coonhounds?

 

I've begun to suspect the reason Violet became homeless is because she's a working BC trapped in a show BC's body and probably drove her first (perhaps unsuspecting) owners crazy. She's definitely a "fluffy-butt" and marked exactly like Belle - although she's a little lighter-boned. Bit of a "Barbie collie" really. But only on the surface!

 

Anyway, I don't think it'll do a bit of good to try and talk the woman out of breeding Belle. I can't imagine, if she's an AKC-type, that she'll remotely understand your point of view. At least, since she's in breed rescue, she'll probably make sure the puppies end up in good homes. And if they inherit Mama's temperament, maybe they'll remain in them.