Fetching Problem

[Guest BelgBC]

I'm having a consistent problem with my dog on the fetch when I'm walking around. He won't keep a straight line on the sheep. If the sheep are even the tiniest bit to one side of me he flanks that way. Which I know is not wrong to do, except he always overdoes it, to the point that he pushes them too far the other way, then has to flank that way to cover it. So we end up with sheep zig zagging along behind me. I've been told to down him when he does that, but if I just keep downing him, he never seems to get it. He just lies down then pops back up into a fast flank again, because while he was down he's worried that I'm not letting cover it. When he does go straight for a bit, he comes on too fast and too close. If I step at him to put pressure on him for being too close, he flanks away from my pressure. So our walk-abouts are pretty ragged! Any ideas on how to smooth this out?

[Guest Carol Campion]

<<When he does go straight for a bit, he comes on too fast and too close.>>

 

Hi Diana

 

This above sentence from your question tells a lot.

 

Picture a car going down a road at a fast speed. It comes to another car ahead of it in the road. If it does not slow down, what can it do to keep from hitting the car ahead?

 

There are two choices—one is to stop—the other is to weave back and forth to cover ground. It is the same with these dogs but with the added aspect of its genetic makeup that also causes it to respond to the lateral moves of the sheep.

 

So the dog starts weaving to keep moving without hitting the sheep and then the sheep react to this movement on the part of the dog and then the dog in turn reacts to the sheep movement that he has created. WHEW! An as a trainer/handler we either get dizzy doing circles or annoyed!

 

The dog is flanking because it is too close to the sheep and has no where to go. Also, the dog wants to keep the sheep to you and as soon as they think the sheep are starting to get past you, they really want to flank around to stop them.

 

You need to keep some space between YOU and the sheep and then between the sheep and the dog. You can do this by getting in between the sheep and the dog and pushing him off or by stopping him while YOU keep moving the sheep away from him.

 

It will help solve a number of things. The dog will be able to feel the balance point because if the sheep are bunched around you, there is no balance point. He can then get a feel for where he needs to be to control the sheep. It also will get him used to seeing sheep moving away from him. He can also learn that you and the sheep can be moving but it doesn' necessarily mean he has to.

 

A lot of dogs do not want to stop if the sheep are moving or if you are. If this is the case—work on that. Stop the dog—get directly across from him if he has been weaving before he stopped—start moving yourself and the sheep backwards in a straight line but DO NOT let the dog up until you have given the sheep more space. You can tell when to ask him up by what the sheep are doing and not by some arbitrary decision. The time to ask him up is when the sheep stop hanging on you—they will pull back from you and start to walk with space between you and them. That is when to ask him up. Then there is something for him to do–to bring you the sheep. He will fell the difference but it is up to you to set up the situation to help him do this.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Also, make sure you go in straight lines. Many people think they are but they are really spiraling in a reaction to the dog flanking and don't even realize they are doing it. Go in straint lines to a particular spot, do a flank oor small outrun to turn back and then go straight back again.

[Guest BelgBC]

Stop the dog—get directly across from him if he has been weaving before he stopped—start moving yourself and the sheep backwards in a straight line but DO NOT let the dog up until you have given the sheep more space. You can tell when to ask him up by what the sheep are doing and not by some arbitrary decision. The time to ask him up is when the sheep stop hanging on you—they will pull back from you and start to walk with space between you and them. That is when to ask him up. Then there is something for him to do–to bring you the sheep. He will fell the difference but it is up to you to set up the situation to help him do this.

 

Does this make sense?

[Guest BelgBC]

Hi Carol,

Sorry about the messed up quote. I haven't quite figured out these boards yet.

 

Yes, this makes sense. I've tried that a few times, but I think I didn't get enough distance to start with. I was thinking more of distance between dog and sheep and I think not getting much distance between me and the sheep. I'll have to try again and really leave those sheep behind. That makes sense what you said about giving him something to do by letting him bring them to me.

 

Only two things I'm not sure about. When I ask him up, what do I do if he gets up too fast? And once the sheep get to me, if he's still coming on strong, do I just down him again and start over, or should I run at him to correct him? Or should I try to keep him off enough so that the sheep never really get to me as I'm walking?

[Guest Carol Campion]

<<Only two things I'm not sure about. When I ask him up, what do I do if he gets up too fast? And once the sheep get to me, if he's still coming on strong, do I just down him again and start over, or should I run at him to correct him? Or should I try to keep him off enough so that the sheep never really get to me as I'm walking???>>

 

Carol writes:

 

I would recommend you read the post I sent to someone recently about the dog moving on the fetch. It is about pace and that would be what you need to instill in your dog from the get-go.

 

When you ask him up, do not allow him to continue forward if he jolts up and/or rushes to get back as close as he was used to working. That is the usual reaction to starting to stop the dag farther off the sheep. Lie him down asap. The dog is comfortable at a certain proximity and when you change this distance, he will be try to get to where he is used to being. You are changing the rules here and creating a new work pattern—dog gets up slowly—he gets to come forward onto the sheep-dog jolts up—he gets stopped. You will find that very quickly they will start getting up slowly.

 

At this point, once he is getting up slowly, let him come on as long as it is with thought and pace. Then start putting a command to the pace. You will find pretty quickly you can ask him up with this "pace" command and he will know what you want. Again as soon as he speeds up and pushes the sheep too fast—lie him down.

 

Remember to base what you ask of your dog on what the sheep are doing and not on a predetermined idea so he learns that he will have control of the sheep from this and he won't become a robot. If the sheep are stopped or are way too slow, he will heed to come forward.

 

Once you get this established, you may want to allow him to come on harder once in a while so that he doesn't think he must stay off ALL the time. Then put a whistle or command to the faster pace.

 

Once the sheep get you you, you could stop him, and either move back to get some space between you and the sheep again, or you could pivot yourself into a "v" position in relation to the dog and sheep and flank him, stop him across from you at the end of the flank (your dog has just done a small outun) and then start moving backwards again.

[Guest BelgBC]

I just wanted to give an update on this fetching question that I had a while back. I've been working with my dog as suggested, getting lots of distance between me and the sheep before asking him up, and that does seem to make a big difference. Also a while back we were working on penning and my instructor was telling me I had to do more to help the dog. Not sure what was meant by that at first, but as it turns out, if I act a certain way, the sheep will actually move off of me just like they do for the dog. I didn't know you could do that. Anyway, that has helped with this fetching problem, because what was happening was those darn sheep kept following me even when the dog was really far back there. So then he felt he really had to get up fast because we were so far away. Now I stomp at the sheep a bit and jump at them, and they back off and stop, then I can leave them a good distance, and the dog fetches much better. He sometimes is still too fast and I have to sop him several times before we get it right, but the wild over flanking doesn't happen when we have that distance. So we'll keep working on it, but at least now I'm seeing that what I'm doing is having the effect that I want and we're not both just out there frustrating ourselves.

[Guest Carol Campion]

<<if I act a certain way, the sheep will actually move off of me just like they do for the dog. I didn't know you could do that. Anyway, that has helped with this fetching problem, because what was happening was those darn sheep kept following me even when the dog was really far back there. So then he felt he really had to get up fast because we were so far away. Now I stomp at the sheep a bit and jump at them, and they back off and stop, then I can leave them a good distance, and the dog fetches much better. He sometimes is still too fast and I have to sop him several times before we get it right, but the wild over flanking doesn't happen when we have that distance.>>

 

Hi

 

The depth of what you learned here is immeasurable! Let me explain some of the dynamics of why this is so.

 

When the sheep are bunched near or around you, it is a body language message to your dog that they are getting past you. Every cell in his body screams with discomfort at the thought that he is losing the sheep. He isn't far enough in his experience level to relax with this. Also, when the sheep are all around you, there is no definate balance point. He is not sure where to be and so he is uncomfortable and has no real desire to "draw up" at some point and slow himself down to hold them to you.

 

All of these dynamics get changed when the SHEEP are a distance away from you. Then there is a balance point and he feels he can slow up and stop flanking because he has control of them. In the beginning, you sometimes need to stop the dog to slow the sheep and then you can show him he can control them from a distance. You have learned that you and your dog's earlier behavior trained the sheep to be on top of you. This created the dynamics that added to his desire to flop back & forth and/or rush up.

 

By you making YOURSELF unpleasant for the sheep to be near, they will keep a distance and then the visious circle can end. Then you won't frustate him unnecessarily. He can then move forward when he has some work to do—to move the sheep. You can then work on his pace, etc!!

 

Also, tuck your awareness of the sheep behavior you just learned into a back pocket. It will become very useful when handling the sheep at the pen, turning the post, starting the drive and expecially shedding. These are some places where you do may or may not want to put that pressure on the sheep!!!