Why do e-collars fail?

[Shetlander]

Today on my walk in my subdivision, I saw a dog get hit by a pick-up when he ran right in front of it. He must have been chasing something. It all happened in a second. Just a flash of grey, followed by the slam of the truck's breaks and the dog's yelp. The driver ran to the house where the dog came from and its owners came out and rushed it to the vet. It was a beautiful Siberian, but it was hit pretty bad so I don't know if it can be saved. I felt so sorry for everyone involved -- the owners, the driver and of course the poor dog.

 

Lying next to the dog on the pavement was an electronic collar. I know some people on these boards use e-collars and swear by them, but it seems for every success story I hear, I come across failures with the device. Some years back my friends' cat was killed in their yard by a Samoyed who frequently left his property despite wearing an electronic collar.

 

Is it the training that is so crucial or do the batteries wear out or are some types of dogs more likely to do better with it than others? For instance, the Siberian and Samoyed are Northern breeds and often considered challenging to train. Not that I intend to use that kind of containment (and any system can fail -- a gate can be left open or a dog digs under a fence), but I am curious.

[Freeman's Mom]

Liz,

Do you mean that the dog had a collar on for the electric underground fencing?

 

Or did you mean the dog had an e-collar on that was activate by the owner?

 

What a sad thing to witness.

[BigD]

Liz - I thought you meant the e-collar that looks like a cone! Big difference! Here, the collar you get at the vet is known as the "e-collar." The ones that are used to train dogs is known as a "shock collar."

 

Are you sure it was a shock collar for training? It could have been one of the bark collars or spray collars. Also, some folks that I know that use them will take out the batteries and use it as just a threat! Sad but true.

 

Horrible thing to see.

 

Denise

[RacingQH]

If you are talking about the collars that go with an underground fence, I have heard that with breeds that have a heavy coat (like Samoyeds and Siberians) that you need to shave their neck where the collar is so that they can get elecirical current into the skin. Other wise, they are useless because they can't even feel the shock.

 

I have known more folks that have had these "containment" systems fail than have had them work.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by RacingQH:

I have known more folks that have had these "containment" systems fail than have had them work.

Yeah, that's what bothers me about underground fences. When they do fail, the consequences can be very bad (my friend's dead cat, the Siberian yesterday). As I said though, fences can also fail with the same sad results.

 

Do you know if they train the underground fence starting at the lowest level possible then work up to higher levels as needed? When I tried a no-bark collar with my sheltie, that was what was recommended and even with a shaved neck, I still needed to go to a very high level. Looking back, I think all I was doing was training her to tolerate the shocks by slowly increasing the intensity. Either that or barking was just too self-reinforcing for the shocks to curb the behavior. The only thing it really did was give her a hot spot on her neck that still comes back every so often to haunt me years later.

 

As an aside, I also always used to think of e-collars as the coned, Elizabethan Collars. However, in training (obedience, agility) circles, the more socially acceptable name for Shock Collars is Electronic Collars which is then shortened to e-collars. Kind of like calling choke collars training collars. Some people don't like the emphasis on choking or shocking their dogs when they use the devices.

 

Liz

[Kat's Dogs]

Calling them E-Collars is like calling a prong collar a Power Stearing Collar, much better names for them.

 

One of the things with the collars is that the dog might chase something and be so intent that they leave the yard and get shocked before they even know they hit the edge. Once outside the yard, the dog is afraid to go back in - and get shocked again. if the owner isn't around the dog can stay "locked out" of the yard for hours, see a small animal, chase it and cross a road.

 

It can get pretty bad that way, I would prefer to take my dog out with me or get an 8 foot fence. Much lower risk.

 

I hope that the husky is OK.

[Freeman's Mom]

>Do you know if they train the underground fence >starting at the lowest level possible then work >up to higher levels as needed? When I tried a no->bark collar with my sheltie, that was what was >recommended and even with a shaved neck, I still >needed to go to a very high level.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with underground fencing, but I do have rudimentary knowledge of how punishment based training methods work. Starting with low-level corrections and slowly increasing the intensity level can desensitize the dog to the correction. (I've witnessed this first hand with the bark collars).

 

Pam Reid discussed this in her book "EXCEL-ERATED LEARNING, Explaining in plain English how dogs learn and how best to teach them."

 

Here is the quote from her book regarding effectiveness of the intensity of an aversive stimulus:

 

"Generally, the more intense the aversive is, the more the response will be suppressed. Low-intensity punishment produces only moderate suppression and the behavior often recovers despite continued punishment. High-intensity punishment, on the other hand, can produce complete and long-lasting suppression. Animals are able to adapt to punishment. In one study, it was found that rats trained to run down an alley for food would continue running even when severe shocks were given in the goal box, provided the rats had been exposed to a series of shocks of gradually increasing intensity. Other rats that received the intense shock from the outset stopped running completely."

 

So anyway, she summed up saying that it's better to start out strong and then back off.

 

FYI: she wasn't recommending punishment-based methods; however, if one chooses to use bark collars or underground electric barriers her remarks are worth keeping in mind.

[Pipedream Farm]

I have heard one story about a dog that learned to run the battery down on a collar that gave a warning tone first. The dog would wait it out while in the "warning zone." Then when the battery ran down, it would take off.

Renee

[Carson Crazies]

My brother uses the Inv. Fence and Shock collar for his dog - a Bichon Frise. You'd better believe that that dog KNOWS when the batteries run down (in his collar), and he is GONE. Unfortunately, the batteries run down frequently... and they refuse to neuter him. But this doggie's life problems are a whole other thread. Like someone suggested, sometimes they get so intent on chasing something they breeze through the shock, and then won't come back. Sometimes there is a short, or the batteries in the collar go dead - and then sometimes it just doesn't make contact. I hope the dog is OK. I'm afraid I hear more stories about this method failing than I do positive stories.

[juliepoudrier]

This discussion comes up every time someone posts on these boards asking about using invisible fencing. The folks who say invisible fence won't keep your dog safe are talking about just the situation the OP described. A dog that is sufficiently stimulated (e.g., by chasing) will go through the shock, which lasts only as long as the dog crosses the barrier. Likewise, batteries wear down or contact with the dog's neck is insufficient. Many folks get lax once the dog is trained and don't even worry about whether the system is functioning; they just assume that it's working--until Fido blows on out of the yard and gets hit by a car.

 

The lesson to be learned from the OP's story is that if you must use invisible fence, then make sure it is working properly, the battery is fresh, the contacts are good, and your dog is well trained to the boundaries. You should also want to keep an eye on the dog when it is out in the yard. This latter is *very important* since anything can come into the yard and mess with your dog or go through the yard and entice (not intentionally mind you) your dog to break its training and leave the yard for the thrill of the chase. If you aren't paying attention to the condition of your fence and its accessories *and* where your dog is and what it's doing, then the invisible fence has given you a false sense of security and your complacency could cost your dog(s) its life.

 

 

J.

[lrayburn]

I have had two experiences with dogs trained to underground fences. My landlady's poodle has one. It works very well since the dog is FAR away from any sort of road. My dogs and I are her only distraction. However, she does listen for the warning beep and if the battery dies or the line breaks, she knows she can go through.

 

The other dog was a large hound or shepherd cross and he simply built up a head of steam and ran through it to chase wildlife. When he came back, he'd hang out outside the fence for a minute or two (afraid to come back through) then take off again if someone wasn't there to let him back in.

 

Lisa

[bobh]

Once again i agree with Julie.

I would add I have IF sice 1997 1998 have had 5 difrent dogs on it and now have 4 dogs on it .They all know the boundries and are trianed evey month or 2 . And none of them sit there just waiting to kill the bat. and run away . They stay close to me and /or my wife.

I can not even think why a dog would just sit there waiting to run away from home.

 

Train and play with your dogs and they are less likly to run away.

 

Bob h

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by bobh:

I can not even think why a dog would just sit there waiting to run away from home.

 

Train and play with your dogs and they are less likly to run away.

To a large extent, I think that is true. However, some dogs do have more of the wandering lust than others. And also running off can be very reinforcing for dogs. My childhood dog, a BC mix, discovered running away well into his middle age. I don't know how it happened the first time, but after that he was often looking for opportunities to sneak off. This was a dog who had tons of human companionship and interaction. Since I was the one who at age 11 trained him (getting my information from books), I can't say he was wonderfully well trained but he was an integral part of the family. Anyway, I remember one time going outside to hang laundry and instead of following me to the clothesline, he stopped and sniffed around. I thought it was odd but continued on. As I started to hang clothes, I suddenly remembered that it was trash day and the garbage collector usually left the gate open. Sure enough, when I ran to look, the dog was ambling down the drive. By that point he was getting old (and I was young), so I was able to catch up with him without much trouble.

 

At the same time, I do agree that dogs who live to escape their yards, may very well be bored or not having enough interaction with their owners. I've found the information on Invisible Fencing to be very interesting and will file it away to share if someone I know wants to use that method of containment.

 

I don't know how the Siberian is doing. He was hit pretty badly -- at first I thought he had died before he started thrashing around very briefly in an attempt to stand. I don't know the owners, just walk by their house and they're never out. That was the first time I had seen the dog, probably because of the odd times I walk. Anyway, I hope a vet was able to help him.

 

Liz

[Zoe]

Liz, I'm sorry you had to witness what you did. Like Denise I thought this post was about Elizabethan collars and I'm quite shocked to read all of this stuff. I wonder why any dog would be allowed to roam free in the yard in the first place..... and all these horrible shock collars and invisible fences etc,etc. There are a few dogs around here chained up in their yards - I think the people have bought them as guard dogs.... And they just bark like crazy when anyone goes within hundreds of yards near their house. And these are big dogs - Goldens and other retrievers. I often see Japanese breeds out in the yard - Shiba dogs etc, but for some reason am shocked to see these bigger non-Japanese breeds. ( strange reaction, I suppose..? ) They don't have any shock collar on but another dog, a spaniel, does. That dog is free in the yard, and we have to walk past that house sometimes. It goes wild barking at us and Dylan whines..... I'm guessing it has a shock collar for barking on, but it certainly doesn't work. I just say " poor dog, poor dog " to Dylan and try to go past as calmly as possible. It is all so sad. I swear these dogs have nothing better to do and they are occupying their idle minds.

[RaisingRiver]

I use invisible fencing and I live on 5 un-fenced acres. I have trained both my GSD/Chow mix and my Golden to stay in bounds. They no longer wear the collars. This is because I TRAINED them where the boundries were... the purpose of the collar is to be the 'NO' when you aren't there to catch them trying to cross. The instructions CLEARY say it is a TRAINING device. It's not meant to live on your dog 24/7. My dogs stay in my yard - chase cars up and down the property line but don't leave.

 

It truely is in the training.

[Freeman's Mom]

Originally posted by Raising River:

It's not meant to live on your dog 24/7.

 

Are you sure? This seems risky. Without the collar on to give the warning beep, it seems that the dogs would "unlearn" the boundries.

[trailrider]

I heard a dog behoaviourist explain that he had been involved with several dogs who had "learned" to travel sideways, and avoid the contact of the signal, and thus escape from the invisible fence.

[bobh]

Trailrider, i do not understand what you are saying.

 

My dogs when outside are with me not at the fence barrier trying to escape by MOVING SIDEWAYS!!??????

Bobh

[bobh]

Trailrider, i do not understand what you are saying.

 

My dogs when outside are with me not at the fence barrier trying to escape by MOVING SIDEWAYS!!??????

Bobh

[bobh]

Trailrider, i do not understand what you are saying.

 

My dogs when outside are with me not at the fence barrier trying to escape by MOVING SIDEWAYS!!??????

Bobh

[RaisingRiver]

Originally posted by Freeman's Mom:

Originally posted by Raising River:

It's not meant to live on your dog 24/7.

 

Are you sure? This seems risky. Without the collar on to give the warning beep, it seems that the dogs would "unlearn" the boundries.

Well I certainly don't leave them out while I'm not home. I don't trust them THAT much. I may be in the house, but I do look outside periodically to see where they are. Maybe my dogs don't WANT to escape because they have enough room to play. My GSD/Chow has only been zapped like 3 times total in the collar. My Golden needed a stronger zap, but he also has only been zapped maybe 5 times. That's all it took.

 

 

I do think real fencing is best, but for me, the invisible fence has done it's job. Maybe we'll see how it works w/ my BC pup when she's old enough to start being off leash.

[Freeman's Mom]

>Well I certainly don't leave them out while I'm >not home. I don't trust them THAT much.

 

You probably don't live in a high traffic area like I do. I fear that if my bc was left alone in the IF he would choose the shock and go after cars.

[Tammy525]

We have a fairly new invisible fence, but so far, so good.

 

I think it is working because:

 

1)I have a very compliant dog who remembers admonishments and tries never to commit the crime again

 

2)We went with a company who guarantees everything. There is an indicator in the garage has different lights to let you know it is working, or if the line has been compromised.

 

3)Scout is NEVER left out there alone. He has a fenced dog yard that he occasionally spends 15 -20 minutes in at a time. (this is new, he has only recently been agreeable to being outside AT ALL by himself)

 

4)The company sends out new batteries to put in on a schedule that should mean replacing them well before they go bad.

 

5)There is a LOT for him to do on the property and he is always loved, attended to, and played with.

 

I worry about all the things that can come in, even though he doesn't go out. Other dogs, coyotes at nite, etc., etc. We are fenced on three sides, the front is open.

 

Tammy

[Meg's mum]

Our essentially un-fenced 5 acres is bounded by natural inhibitors to our soft puppies wanderings. Meg is off leash when at home and free to go in and out of the house at will when the weather permits it. Like any mother I am aware of her characteristics sounds and silences and spend a lot of time racing down stairs from the computer room or outside from the dinning room where I work at home to check on her.

 

We go through periods of good recall and periods of reluctant recall. Challenges to authority and blind obedience. We never leave her home for more than four hours at a time without us and only lock her in her crate for down times when she is both tired and has the zoomies simultaneously.

 

I recieved excellent advice here regarding a fencing option. I'd like to be able to give her the freedom to be outside as well as inside when we do leave her at home. So we're going to eventually build a pergola/kennel on a bench extending from our bedroom exterior doors.

 

Meg will not like the restriction but she will enjoy the freedom and it will keep her safe. I am anticipating a day when we either believe that we can leave her home for more than 4 hours or need to. Doggie day care is expensive, even at three days a week with us each working a day at home.

[Meg's mum]

Sorry, I was reading a thread on search and forgot it wasn't contemporary. Ditzy...