new additon needs to be PTS

[tortienutmeg]

Painted ponies... No offense taken at all. I just don't know what to do,who to turn to. I am stuck. Toby is microchipped and still in the prevous owners name so I have no proof he was given to me. For all I know if the resuce puts hm down the preious owner can say I had no right to do so....

 

UUUGGGHHH! I hate this so much. I just wanted to give toby a loving home...

 

Now literally it is biting me in the @$#

[Lenajo]

You need to put your foot down on this one. Not only is an innocent person going to be hurt here, but you are going to give all the other BCs who don't bite a bad name in the process. Won't it be nice to see in the news: "Border Collie corners new adoptive owner and puts in hospital!" (or worse)

 

I would tell the owners flat out that if you hear about the dog being rehomed, or worse hurting someone, you will be the first to be there to give them the information that they knew this was a possibility. In fact, I'd consider having them sign a release of liability when they get him back.

 

I might have said to try a behaviorist, but with a multi bite history is rather legally pointless.

[painted_ponies]

Toby is microchipped and still in the prevous owners name so I have no proof he was given to me. For all I know if the resuce puts hm down the preious owner can say I had no right to do so....

 

That's one aspect of the problem, for sure. This is one reasons most rescues require a signed have Owner Relinquishment form before taking a dog in.

 

Like RDM, I can't advise anyone to euthanize an animal sight unseen and without knowing its history, etc.

 

Is your rescue group well-established? Do they seem to know what they're talking about? If so, what about suggesting the owner relinquish this dog to the rescue? After all, he's tried to do that twice already. That way, someone with experience in these kinds of situations who is familiar with the dog could make the call.

 

Do you think that's a possiblity?

[tortienutmeg]

The rescue is border collie rescue ontario. She seemed to know what she was talking about. They didn't want to take the dog 18 months ago,and not even 2 months ago as that is when he took toby back there. So no,the rescues doesn't want hm as he is to aggressive. They really want him to be put down. Rather than hm attacking someone down the road.

[leahluvsherpups]

I just want to throw in my dog aggression story to show that some dogs can turn around.

 

When we adopted Niki she was human aggressive, mainly towards men, and had severe food aggression. Niki did not display any of this behavior at the shelter except the man thing. We believed that this behavior was simply because she spent her first two years of life with only one human and had absolutely no training or socialization. We spent the next two years, with no breaks, aggressively training and socializing her which has paid of beautifully. That was 5 years ago and today you'd never know that she was that way at one time. It can be done and maybe not but it's definitely worth a shot. Good luck.

[painted_ponies]

He handed me this dog and now wants to hand it over to another family. So should I let the rescue put him down. Apparently the rescue is trying to contact him...

 

I sort of thought from this post that the rescue was willing to get involved. If so, in your shoes, I'd put the rescue and the owner together and let them come to a decision about the dog. Rescue people usually have experience talking to owners about difficult decisions.

 

I know the person who evaluated the dog for the rescue thinks he should be put down. That's very sad, but there just don't seem to be many options here. You can't keep the dog. The owner won't keep the dog. If he's re-homed, he will still be aggressive - his issues probably won't just go away.

 

Do you know if the potential new owner is aware of his problems and is able to deal with them? If not, I think I'd trust the rescue's judgment on this one. However, I don't think you should be the one to euthanize the dog. You've only had him what? a day or two? And you've no proof of ownership.

[karrie]

Just based on what you have said and I read. Frankly, I would get with the local authorites and see what can be done ( just to be on the correct legal side). If you are not in a postion to control what happens or PTS and he is going to just pass the dog so to speak, then they may have some recourse to take with the so called owner. For example, The authorties maybe able to say to the owner per microchip "dog is aggressive either get help and change this behavior or PTS AND under no circumstances is this dog to be rehomed till behavior is at a tolerable (safe for human) level". Sorry, you are in this position. I'm even sorrier for the dog. He is in a lot of mixed up pain to be like he is.

[Beth G]

If it were me, I would go back to the rescue with the dog and have him PTS.

 

I WOULD NOT give him back (And I would NOT feel guilty about it either)to the ignorent (Ex-owner)person who knew the dangers, and yet played innocent and tried to place him with unsuspecting people anyhow!

 

Next time he could severely injure an adult- or disfigure or even kill their child. Don't give him a chance to do it again!

[cbm618]

I'm with Beth on this. You're the owner now, its your dog. Why you're even considering giving this dog back, knowing it will be going to another (supposedly unsuspecting) home, is beyond me. Don't be like the previous owner, just passing the buck, take responsibility, as difficult as that might be. I'm sorry this guy trapped you into such an awful position, but you really don't want him doing it someone else either.

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, guess I'll give my two cents' worth here. If we are worried about the health and wellbeing of the *dog* as well as of any *potential adopters* of the dog, then it doesn't make sense to hand him back to his original owner, who will likely hand him over to another person *unprepared* to deal with his issues. IMO, the dog needs to go to someone who is fully aware of his issues and is *willing* and *capable* of dealing with those issues, or the dog should be euthanized (which can actually be a blessing for some animals, though I can't say it would be for this one, since we don't really know what his issues are or if they are correctable). Consider that if the dog continues to be passed along from home to home, his behavior is likely to worsen and that sets him up for abuse or abandonment. IMO, such a dog would be better of dead than passed around like a hot potato and possibly being mistreated (or worse) for behavior problems that may or may not be solvable (something we will never know unless the dog is actually evaluated by a board-certified behaviorist). If I were taking on such a dog, I would go to a behaviorist first thing and get that evaluation and proceed on the basis of the behaviorist's recommendations (that is, until someone qualified to do so has actually assessed the dog, no one can say for sure what's going on with him or propose a real workable solution). I am a strong advocate of not simply passing a problem on to someone else. And FWIW, I agree with those who have pointed out that the dog hasn't been with you long enough to consider you his family, so his aggressive behavior toward you really isn't surprising. But even if he does settle in and become the perfect dog for some family, he would still pose a risk to anyone coming to the house. This dog needs a *professional* evaluation and structured rehab (or PTS if the professional deems that appropriate) if he's to make someone a good dog. There are tons of nonaggressive dogs in rescue and so I can certainly understand why a rescue wouldn't want to take on this problem dog. Just my (rambling) opinion.

 

J.

[Jo&Tex]

I have adopted thru Border Collie Rescue Ontario and I certainly feel that the rescue knows what they are doing.

I have a very soft, fully blind dog and BCRO and I worked together to find a suitably tempered companion for Tex. They have a very good assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs that come into their care. If the rescue's opinion is that the dog is liability and dangerous, based on what I have seen from the quality and caring of that rescue org, I would be inclined to give their opinion serious consideration and not return the dog to the owner.

[ShoresDog]

I am confused -- I think the OP did not actually get the dog through Ontario Border Collie Rescue, but rather directly from the owner?? Had the rescue turned down the owner because of the dog's aggressive behaviors?

[Kyrasmom]

Has this dog even been fully medically evaluated to rule out any medical issue? It would seem he's not been professionally assessed either.

 

I agree that he should not be given back to the original owner but I do feel that an owned dog, and that is what he is even if for such a short time (not to mention that there was some disclosure going into this issue) should be professionally evaluated, medically and behaviorally, before being put to sleep. To give up that easily, even if I completely understand your fear, is a bit unfair in my opinion especially as you knew he had issues. Unfortunately, love and kindness are not always instant cures and these animals need professional help.

 

As a rescue, unfortunately I would not choose to rescue or rehab an aggressive dog simply because I don't feel it's fair to all of the non-aggressive dogs who would certainly die while I took on a project, so it's understandable for a rescue to have a harder stance on the issue.

 

The bottom line is that the dog is yours now, passing on an unstable dog is not saving his life if nobody is going to take correct steps to help him. If you're unable to attempt to help him, and unable to find him somebody who will, then ending his misery (because it is misery feeling that unstable) is the best thing.

 

It's a tough situation.

Maria

[Journey]

Coming in late but I hope things have worked out for the sake of the dog and any future people that may be involved with him. The OP is in a tough spot morally.

 

15 years ago I bought a pup from a big name. After paying for OCD surgery on both shoulders and dealing with a temperament issue, the only one he hadn't tried to bite was me (it was coming though) I decided I couldn't handle him and I returned him to the breeder. Now, the breeder KNEW the trouble I had been having, knew about the surgeries, knew *everything*. He still went on to *re-sell* this pup - who was now 10 months old. Within 2 months the pup was PTS, after he bit a child in the face. My guilt came hard and fast - I could have had him PTS, instead I sent him back.

 

Unless there is a medical reason I draw the line at aggression. There are too many nice dogs that need homes. Until the original owners signs him over, things are muddy. I hope this has been worked out by now.

 

Karen

[tortienutmeg]

Okay,last night the resuce called me back and told me that I should return the dog to him and give him a stern warning about re-adopting him out. I told the lady there he planned on adopting him out again.

 

Nothing today will make me feel good about doing this. For one thing I had NO PROOF he was handed to me. The previous owner could have charged me with putting the dog down. The resuce is also going to be warning him about this dog....again.

 

The person that had evaluated him was so mad at this guy and commented on that she knew where he worked,this guy was a dentist.

 

 

So I am sure that people are going to be angry about my decision,but legally that dog was not mine even though he was here 3 days.

[kelpiegirl]

Legally, I think, since the guy never signed over ownership to you, or rescue, it is still his, and you can't euthanize it. Of course it stinks that he may give it away again, but you can't be responsible for the dog once it has left your temporary care.

Sorry it all turned out this way.

Julie

[tortienutmeg]

It was terrible to hand him back to this person,but again,no proof.

 

If I ever see an ad posted for him,I will post to warn to not adopt that dog.

Well my baby girl sabrina is doing better today,back to her regular self. Here is a pic a couple of months ago..

[Guest Freckles LaLa Mom]

I admit I'm a bit miffed. You knew the dog was agressive. Three days is hardly enough time to consider adjusted.

 

post revised as 'too late'

 

I guess I'm a jerk. Sorry

[SoloRiver]

My sympathy in this situation is limited to that poor dog, who is a living thing, not a defective product. He deserves a chance, or at least for someone to step up to the plate and take some responsibility, but it's clear he isn't going to get either unless he's very, very lucky with his next placement. Instead, he'll remain the hostage of irresponsible ownership and misplaced human moral judgments.

 

Do I agree with the triage mentality of breed rescue? Sure -- there are perfectly logical reasons for directing efforts to dogs who will require less, so that there is more to go around and more dogs can be helped. Do I agree with emotional value judgments, i.e., only "nice" dogs should be saved? Hell no, and I defy anyone to explain to me how a totally amoral animal (i.e., a dog) can be "good" or "bad." A dog who is scared of the world and defensive doesn't deserve to live less than a dog who is not. This dog is not a villian, he is a victim, and I feel very very sorry for him and the fact that no one in his short life has ever really given a crap about him.

[MrSnappy]

RDM

The name's Julie fwiw. No, I haven't seen the dog in person, but the dog has bitten a number of people. I cannot condone keeping a known aggressive and proven biter around. I have been bit, I have seen people bitten and I have seen rescues sued for adoptive dogs biting adopters. Perhaps you should take the dog in?

Julie

 

Oh my apologies. Let me rephrase.

 

My opinion is that NO ONE, which includes Julie, is qualified to unequivocally tell someone that a dog they have never seen, met or evaluated "has its wires crossed" and should be killed. While this all may in fact be true, I remain surprised that anyone, one of them being Julie, feels they can make such a firm claim over the internet. Responsible and schooled behaviourists don't do this, so I'm not sure why you, Julie, feel that you know enough to make that call.

 

As for me taking in the dog, I have 17 dogs in rescue right now and I make a point of not taking in dogs with aggression issues sight unseen from far far away. And of course, I never did suggest I wanted to take in the dog or that any rescue should take in the dog for that matter. I'm forced to assume that you misunderstood my stance, because the alternative is to assume you were just being a smartass. And surely that's the not the case here?

 

People who are unprepared for an aggressive dog should, generally speaking, not take in an aggressive dog. It certainly does not help the dog. But my opinion remains that neither are any of us who have not seen the dog in a position to declare it absolutely should be dead. I would be very hesitant to suggest that to anyone over the internet. I think everyone else should be too, if for nothing else other than it could mean the death of a dog that may or may not deserve it. I wouldn't want to be responsible for that. It's difficult enough being responsible for the death of dogs that I know FIRST HAND to be dangerous.

 

RDM

[Lucille]

Before everyone's panties get in a wad, I'd like to speak up and say that meeting places for dog lovers forums traditionally have very opiionated people and that's OK, generally they got that way because of their love of dogs. And obviously we DON'T mind because we are all here reading this thread.

 

HOWEVER, this is America, and the absolute worst thing we can do is tell someone they have no right to an opinion. We ALL have a right to what we think, and thank the Lord here in the US we are generally allowed to speak it.

 

One can give credence to what one reads based on the poster, and in my opinion it does not take long to separate the wheat from the chaff. Give your opinion, and just like in 'real life' people will evaluate how they want to take it.

 

I myself am vociferous when it comes to saying how I feel; and yet God gave me 2 ears and I listen to what others say. I've been known to change my mind, and admit the other party has a point, but I'm vigorous in how I say things as are we all, because we love our dogs.

 

OK, time to return to the regularly scheduled program

[Jack & Co.]

From Eileen's "WELCOME TO THE BC BOARDS" sticky: "we are comfortable with robust debate, courtesy is expected at all times and flaming is not permitted."

 

No need to wag your finger and admonish anyone, Lucille, this is just robust debate. Lots of longtime posters here who are very clear on how things work on a Board. I've learned a lot from reading everyone's opinion which, of course, is based on their personal experience. Hope you haven't confused "panties in a wad" for passion.

[Lucille]

Not at all, Jack. It seems I'm saying exactly what is mapped out here already, but I appreciate your sharing

[Jack & Co.]

Oh, that wasn't sharing.....that was my opinion. After all, I'm entitled to one, you know!

 

The rest of us usually leave the monitoring to our Shepherd, Eileen. She takes good care of her flock.

[Lucille]

After all, I'm entitled to one, you know!

 

I know. And I am, too.

 

 

Back to our regularly scheduled programming, I'd like to hear an update on the dog situation.