tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Sad but true,he cornered me barred his teeth and well, found out through a border collie rescue he has a past of aggressiveness. They want the previous owner to come for him or they are going to pay to have him put down. They saw this dog 18 months ago on 2 occasions and the owner lied about being there before. On advice of the rescue he is crated for now. I feel sck to my stomach about this. This person lied to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelb'smum Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Well did he have a reason to corner you and bare his teeth?!? Was there something in the room or area that would have caused this behavior? Are you willing to work through his issues instead of the alternative. yes you were lied to, but does what is his life worth to you? ETA: A dog put in a new situation or even an old situation still needs to be taught how to behave. I have been cornered by a dog a LARGE dog over raw meat. scared the #$@% out of me. BUT, I went back later, and taught him that it is not ok, and showed him the correct behaviors. I think of it like this, your not going to kill your kid screaming and making faces at you? (hopefully ) but you are going to let them know, that the behavior is unacceptable and teach them the correct one. I would suggest a behaviorist or some kind of work with him rather then just opting to go the easier route. and if you have good for you!! but you seem like you are wanting someone to say,"its ok you are doing what you have to" I won't. 1 question, did he bite you? or anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Well did he have a reason to corner you and bare his teeth?!? Was there something in the room or area that would have caused this behavior? Are you willing to work through his issues instead of the alternative. I disagree with this approach. When there is frank evidence of human agressiveness coupled with a history of human aggressiveness, and the fact that the past owner allegedly lied to cover up that history, the dog needs to be put down. For one thing, if you know of the history and there is a subsequent attack, you are liable for money damages, not to mention the tragedy especially if the next victim is a child. Shelters are full of good quality dogs that will make fine companions. Taking on a dog as you did in innocence is one thing, continuing once you know that it may injure you or innocent others is quite another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Why are you surprised at this? You were quite aware that the dog is aggressive, and in fact in your original post you labeled him "people aggressive." Alaska made a very good point about the perils inherent in adopting a dog with issues you were not prepared to handle and you expressed a lot of confidence that you could handle them. I guess don't understand why you now seem shocked that he is, in fact, people aggressive? I disagree with Shelb'smum that you are obligated to work with the dog. The unfortunate reality is that aggressive dogs are a liability (which you know), are an incredible responsibility (which you claimed to be prepared for) and that the number of border collies looking for homes that are not aggressive precludes anyone feeling they should hang on to one that is. I have euthanized a handful of dogs in rescue over the years and while I feel badly that I had to do it, I don't feel badly about the choice I was forced to make. The risks were too great. What I do agree with is that you walked into this situation with your eyes WIDE open (and if they weren't, Alaska's very good post should have clued you in) and now you're expressing disbelief that the dog you intended to muzzle because he had a history of aggression with people is now showing that he is aggressive with people. I could have written this ending as soon as you posted the first time about him. It's tragic. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelb'smum Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 What I don't understand is that in your previous post, he seemed to be ok, just that he doesn't trust people. I am trying to understand if he is truly aggressive or if he is resource guarding or if he is just afraid. ~ I don't feel as if she is obligated to work with him, I just want to make sure that a hasty decision is not being made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 All I did was get up and wanted to go to the bathroom,that's it! He ran up to me,growled and barred hs teeth. I stood still,not looking at him directly and he continued coming forward. Yes I knew he was people aggressive but was lead to believe that it was with those OUTSIDE the house,not inside. He has totally turned around on me. Last night he was cuddlng with me and just all around friendly. I took him believing that he was fine with people in the home. I took control of his food bowl,and now he doesn't want to eat because of this. I was prepared based on what i was told. I would not have taken him if the aggressive behaviour was to those in the home. I know he is new here but to change so quickly is dangerous. I in NO WAY was any threat to him at all..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 He did get my sons finger on the weekend,all he did was walk past him and he went for him.He didn't bleed,but he is scared now(MY SON) Like I said I would not have taken him if I would have known the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 his previous owner is coming for him tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 This dog is a liability, and he needs to be pts. I hate to say it, but has to be said. Some dogs just have their wires crossed, and can't live in our society. Safety is paramount, so you are doing the right thing. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 So how did the dog wind up being involved with the rescue? I thought he just belonged to one owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 His previous owner took him to the rescue. The first time the evaluated him and deemed him unfit for adoption because of the agressive behaviour. He then took him back there at a later date to be taken in by the rescue,the lady he saw there wanted him to be evaluated by the person that had already evaluated him. Only then did he confess to the whole situation. I had a real good talk with the resuce and quite honestly they are sooooooooooo shocked he would do this......again!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 You originally said "He is people aggressve with those he doesn't know." He doesn't know you. This behaviour shouldn't be a shock! A couple of days in your home does not best pals make. Also, it shouldn't be a shock that the owner is passing the buck. That's how rescue ends up with aggressive dogs in the first place. The owners don't want the responsibility, and they also don't want to be the one to put the dog to sleep. This is a hard but good lesson to learn. Don't take on what you are not prepared to see through. I am a little surprised thought that anyone here would tell you definitively that the dog has his wires crossed and should be euthanized given they've not met the dog themselves. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 his previous owner is coming for him tonight. Once an owner turns a dog over to a rescue or otherwise gives him away, he loses all title to him and has no rights to reclaim. If you give him to the owner, knowing the owner has deliberately put you and others in danger by allegedly lying about previous rescue evaluations YOU have some liability if you turn the dog over to him because he may go up the road and do the same thing to some other rescue and there may be tragic consequences. I would not believe anything he says, maybe it's just me but once someone lies to me once, there word is no good from then on. I would not turn the dog back to his previous owner, I would notify the county of the situation and have him PTS to ensure safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 If you give him to the owner, knowing the owner has deliberately put you and others in danger by allegedly lying about previous rescue evaluations YOU have some liability if you turn the dog over to him because he may go up the road and do the same thing to some other rescue and there may be tragic consequences. Yet another day I must have been absent from law school. Liability laws like this depend on which state one lives in. I don't think any of us ought to be giving legal advice over the internet, and especially not when we don't know which law will apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelb'smum Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Yet another day I must have been absent from law school. Liability laws like this depend on which state one lives in. I don't think any of us ought to be giving legal advice over the internet, and especially not when we don't know which law will apply. that is good advice, OP, needless to say, be careful with whatever you do with this dog, IF it were I and he NEEDED to be PTS I would do it myself JUST to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Yet another day I must have been absent from law school. Liability laws like this depend on which state one lives in. I don't think any of us ought to be giving legal advice over the internet, and especially not when we don't know which law will apply. I think you miss the forest for the trees, it is good to alert people that there may be liability if they had not thought of it. I'd rather be proactive, but certainly one can check the specific laws that apply. You indeed were absent if you missed the basic lesson that knowing something (a dog, a machine, etc.) under your control is unusually dangerous and passing it off to an innocent person is actionable if it then causes damage if the person taking it would not have done so if they knew of the danger.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 RDM The name's Julie fwiw. No, I haven't seen the dog in person, but the dog has bitten a number of people. I cannot condone keeping a known aggressive and proven biter around. I have been bit, I have seen people bitten and I have seen rescues sued for adoptive dogs biting adopters. Perhaps you should take the dog in? Julie You originally said "He is people aggressve with those he doesn't know." He doesn't know you. This behaviour shouldn't be a shock! A couple of days in your home does not best pals make. Also, it shouldn't be a shock that the owner is passing the buck. That's how rescue ends up with aggressive dogs in the first place. The owners don't want the responsibility, and they also don't want to be the one to put the dog to sleep. This is a hard but good lesson to learn. Don't take on what you are not prepared to see through. I am a little surprised thought that anyone here would tell you definitively that the dog has his wires crossed and should be euthanized given they've not met the dog themselves. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 While I agree that a dog who is truly dangerous to people should in most cases be PTS. .. It does appear that you knew this dog had issues with people before you got him, AND that you only got him 2 days ago. . . that hardly makes him a part of your home (as evidenced by the incident and your immediate thought of PTS). Here's my "if I were. . .then I would. . .." phrase: IF I went into an adoption knowing a dog had issues with trusting people, strangers or otherwise, I would probably keep him leashed or crated at all times and on a strict NILIF program for what would probably be several months. He really does sound like he doesn't know the rules. Dogs 'cornering' you can be very scary - and herding breeds in general often feel a need to control movement. I had a very poorly bred aussie that recently passed who was OK with strangers in the house - ONLY when they were sitting quietly in one place. The instant they stood and moved from one place to another he was a snarling, barking terror. He tore at least one set of pants and had to muzzled at the vet - he was also a fear-biter. But we kept him and worked on it. And this dog WAS socialized - sometimes it is just genetics, unfortunately; luckily he found contentment as my father's stay-at-home "guard" dog and was simply crated whenever someone he didn't know was around. Anyway, consider all your options carefully, and make whatever decision seems right to you, but I agree with whoever said "don't make a hasty decision" based on one incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 I think you miss the forest for the trees, it is good to alert people that there may be liability if they had not thought of it. I'd rather be proactive, but certainly one can check the specific laws that apply. You indeed were absent if you missed the basic lesson that knowing something (a dog, a machine, etc.) under your control is unusually dangerous and passing it off to an innocent person is actionable if it then causes damage if the person taking it would not have done so if they knew of the danger.. Umm, somehow I'm not sure that the previous owner would classify as an innocent person... It sounds like a bad situation anyway you slice it for the dog, and I find that sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Let me clear something up..... I personally did not want to put him down,those words never came from my mouth in words. That was the resuces doing,not mine. I feel the previous owner should take him back since he was not honest to begin with. I even emailed him saying he should not look for another family.since this is what he plans to do... So I am stuck,He handed me this dog and now wants to hand it over to another family. So should I let the rescue put him down. Apparently the rescue is trying to contact him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Edit - I deleted my original post because I cross-posted with the OP. Off to ponder what I'd do in her situation - that's a tough one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 I don't understand how the OP's giving the dog back to its former owner = passing it off to an innocent person who doesn't know of the danger? I'm not debating the law with you, because what applies in my state would be totally irrelevant to what applies in yours or in the OP's country. I just fail to see the logic. Because he has lied and it is very easy to see he may get the dog back and pass it to one who may be innocent. The logic that he may well do so is inescapeable. I am not debating the law with you, because you do not realize that certain concepts are common throught the law, and 'the law' is different from 'a law'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortienutmeg Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 here is his email from this morning on his intention of passing him to another family. What should I do,let the rescue put him down or give him back? I don't feel he should be given to another family.... I am sorry to hear that it has not worked out. I was happy to hear he was doing well yesterday. I thought it was funny that he managed to get himself up a a bed to sleep again. He used to sleep on our bed but we put a stop to it when we got a new bedspread. I guess he figured he could get away with it again. I guess we have no choice but to take him back. Would it be possible for you or Rod to bring him out to Pickering tonight? I am working until 8 PM and starting again at 9AM tomorrow, so it will be a little difficult to get out to Brampton tonight. I am going to contact the other lady who asked about Toby and see if she is still looking for a dog. I was hoping to not have to bring Toby home if I could find another home for him but I guess the most important thing is to get him back sooner than later I just copied the letter,no addresses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 To clear up any confusion, I deleted the post Lucille quotes because I think I was going off on a tangent. The OP has a tough decision to make before tonight and would like our opinions on that issue. My apologies to tortienutmeg for straying off-topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 here is his email from this morning on his intention of passing him to another family. What should I do,let the rescue put him down or give him back? I don't feel he should be given to another family.... I am sorry to hear that it has not worked out. I was happy to hear he was doing well yesterday. I thought it was funny that he managed to get himself up a a bed to sleep again. He used to sleep on our bed but we put a stop to it when we got a new bedspread. I guess he figured he could get away with it again. I guess we have no choice but to take him back. Would it be possible for you or Rod to bring him out to Pickering tonight? I am working until 8 PM and starting again at 9AM tomorrow, so it will be a little difficult to get out to Brampton tonight. I am going to contact the other lady who asked about Toby and see if she is still looking for a dog. I was hoping to not have to bring Toby home if I could find another home for him but I guess the most important thing is to get him back sooner than later I just copied the letter,no addresses... He is clearly fixing to turn around and put the dog in another home; personally I think he should be picked up by the county and pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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