painted_ponies Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Both actually. And although the AKC does have its flaws, it has also helped to keep a few breeds from going extinct. Really? Which ones? And, you may have missed my last question, since I edited my post to add it - how many BC are required for a major? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 And the AKC's got a greater reputation than the ABCA, IBCA or most others. Ive tried to stay out of this, but Oh Please! Dont even go there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 AKC does have its flaws, it has also helped to keep a few breeds from going extinct. OMG. I totally missed this one. FLAWS!!?? And, Id be willing to bet dollars to donuts, that the breeds that you so generously commend them for keeping from going extinct?? How close are they now, to thier original breed, and usefulness? I find your statements to be very single minded and self serving. You could really do yourself a favor, and......well, never mind, its not worth it. Id get carple tunnel trying to explain or convince you other wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Julie, Becca, and others: Good for you! Y'all keep trying to make sense of all this. Where, oh, where is that head-banging emoticon when ya really need it? Me? I've got dogs to go work, Later, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 And as for "for profit" business, it's no more for profit than the AKC or the ABCA. Not so. The AKC and the ABCA are both registered non-profits under Sec. 501c of the federal tax code. As you no doubt learned through your research, that is not true of the IBCA. And speaking of your research, what did you learn about the identity of the officers and directors of the IBCA? Nothing? You ignored this question the first time I asked it, you know. As far as the DNA remark....well did you offer the referenced breeder the opportunity to have her own vet provide you with DNA evidence? Did she deny the ABCA access to her vet's DNA / treatment records? [snip] In regards to the DNA question, that was directed towards Ms. Stein's comment about MAH's refusal to allow ABCA to DNA her dogs. That issue never arose. MAH did not suggest that she had a problem with anyone else touching her dogs (nice flight of fancy there), or request that we get information from her vet instead. It never got that far. She was unwilling to let an ABCA representative come to see her kennel at all. Just remember, those you alienate today are the future or present owners with decisions to make about what registries to support. This is getting a little silly. The idea that any puppy buyer values an IBCA registration over any other registration certificate is absurd. Nobody has heard of the IBCA. The value of an IBCA registration certificate depends on no one's having heard of the IBCA or knowing anything about it. Its appeal is to the ignorant; it tells them their dog has "papers." Nobody would seek IBCA registration as a dual registration because it confers no benefits above or additional to those of any other registry, reputable or otherwise. In fact, it's unlikely that anyone outside the small circle of puppy millers who are its mainstay has any interest in the IBCA at all (other than the passing thought, if they're knowledgeable about border collies and happen to come across the name: "What the heck is the IBCA?"). So I think your real concern is that threads like this one provide information to people that you would prefer they did not have, rather than that the posts do not meet your standards of courtesy. Just a hunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Have you done background research on the IBCA for yourself? Or are your assertions an assumption based on hear-say? I sincerely want to know. Because I have done my research. Eileen said: Great! Then presumably you can tell us who the officers, directors and employees of the IBCA are? We still haven't gotten a straight answer to this. If you have done your research, and you are sure that the MAH and her cronies are not the driving force behind the IBCA, then please ... enlighten us ... who is? Who is the person who assures the accuracy of the pedigrees? Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 And the AKC's got a greater reputation than the ABCA, IBCA or most others it sure does and it is not a reputation that I would like to have!!! I work hard at having a good reputation for quality, working dogs and am a lifelong member of the ABCA because it stands for the *true calling of the breed* than the *Barbie calling* of the breed. You know I went to the UK over the summer. Went to Wales and Scotland. Saw quite a few working dogs and spent the day at Bobbi Dalziel's place. Saw the most beautiful working dogs that took my breath away....smooth coats, rough coats, tipped ears, rose ears, whippet builds, bulky builds, square head, skinny heads, ugly as sin, cute as a button and all of these dogs had one theme in common...."doing the work they were bred for for hundreds of years". I stayed at a working farm with over 5000 acres and thousands of sheep, with dogs working on the hill. Stayed at my shearer's house in Wales where his brother runs a sheep farm that supplies lamb to the major stores and his farm used the dogs as his ancestors did for years prior. I saw the hills that sheep lived on all their lives and they were tiny dots on the hill and the dogs that worked the hills. I saw the history of my dogs in real life and I was awed. That's the type of reputation the dogs should have. That is what the ABCA stand for. That's what I stand for and that is what we all should stand for Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Painted Ponies wrote: So why do you want to have a double-registered dog? Does it make the pups more saleable? Do the uninitiated believe the IBCA is a working registry? To which BC'sR4Me replied: Both actually. So what you're saying is that you want the IBCA registration because it will allow you to sell more pups and because there are people out there who believe it's (IBCA) a working registry. One can only infer from that statement that you intend to sell conformation-bred dogs (since you've already stated that your dog is AKC registered and you want to show in conformation) as working dogs to the folks who are gullible enough to believe that the IBCA is a working registry? Incredible. But it certainly does go a long way toward explaining why you chose that registry and why you are now defending it steadfastly against those who have pointed out the the registry was founded by people known for or seriously suspected of fraudulent breeding practices. Because selling dogs as something they're not to people who are too gulible to know better is just one more example of a fraudulent practice, albeit not on the same level as actually flasifying pedigrees. Oh my. I sincerely hope this is not your plan, but your words indicate otherwise. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Usually I stay out of these threads because there are those on these boards who say, and have upheld facts and issues so much better than I can. However, I'll make an exception this time and contribute my 2 cents, which would be this link. Read the responses below. http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/189/RipOff0189021.htm It sounds like another backyard breeder trying to lay a foundation for future puppy sales by promoting a bogus registry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 It sounds like another backyard breeder trying to lay a foundation for future puppy sales by promoting a bogus registry. Yikes, to me some of it sounded too familiar, almost word for word what BC'sR4Me said here, or is it Angela? And all her responses from 12/28/07 and forward. Someone sure is trying to do damage control, wonder why? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Yikes, to me some of it sounded too familiar, almost word for word what BC'sR4Me said here, or is it Angela? And all her responses from 12/28/07 and forward. Someone sure is trying to do damage control, wonder why? Karen Something didn't seem kosher to me, either. That's why I asked a question that anyone who actually showed in AKC conformation would know off the top of her head. Twice, to make sure she saw it. No response. Which tells me she's not really worried about having another registry to go to once her dogs get kicked out of the ABCA for finishing their AKC championships. So I guess this is just someone who'd like people to believe the IBCA is an actual registry. BYB, I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 I recall seeing a number of "registries" advertising in the backs of horse magazines, "register your horse and make him/her more valuable". There is a sucker born every minute. Papers from IBCA, CKC, and a lot of similar "registries" belong in the bottom of a litter pan, where at least they will serve a realistic purpose... You can teach some of the people some of the time, but you can't reach or teach some of the people at all. Some just don't want to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay7347 Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Boy I guess it takes a topic like this to yank me out of lurking. First of all I'm not even going to go there on the comment about the AKC doing "sooo" much for Border Collies and other breeds. Trying to figure which has hurt the breed more, the AKC or backyard breeders is a tough one for me. As for the Wildrose issue and the woman or people behind it I just wanted to say a deep and humble thank you to all those posting information on this. After my first rescue border collie had to be put down at 12, I went looking for a puppy. The folks at Wildrose do a great job on their web presence so their site came up soon and often. I was all set to adopt a beautiful liitle sable pup from her but then decided on a red and white from a breeder in Texas. (Sure enough, that one ended up having double HD requiring a double TPO. But at almost three years old she is a great dog and handles 30-40 miles per week of running like its a warmup.) The breeder in Texas cost me $6K in medical bills. That bad breeding I can quantify. As for whether there would have been problems with Wildrose, who knows, but I do know that from the info I've seen here and the ABCA site that possibility is more probability. I know there's many fine breeders out there who care their hearts out about the breed. The problem is that the bad ones are usually just as adept in web marketing so for the newbie its hard to tell the good from the bad. Except for info from a wonderful board like this. Sure, its buyer beware out there. But when bad people flaunt the law and any kind of moral imperative to make money on the backs of animals, well, a pox on their house. I don't work sheep on our ranch in Colorado but I do have a world of respect for those here and elsewhere that are doing their best to maintain the working traits and well being of a pretty fine breed of dog. I've since adopted two rescue Borders and have begun working with the fine Wyoming Border Collie Rescue group because its all I can do to help clean up the mess made by breeders like Wildrose and groups like the AKC. I'm not a newbie anymore but if I was, I hope providence would bring me here first for the information I would need. -jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcherder Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 IOW, you know only what she tells you. Please consider that the facts may be very different from what she chooses to tell you. BTW, to the best of my knowledge "WildRose" is not a member of the boards. Eileen, I think Katelyn meant member of the board of directors of IBCA. d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Well, it's been a week since we've seen BC'sR4Me, despite the fact that it (they never identified themselves as male or female) logged in on Jan. 8th. Imagine that. Ask a pointed question ... and they disappear. How original. So much for that worthy research ... Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRANK DOWNEY Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 What is so funny is that since the 2nd page of this thread and most inportanlly Beaurose was brought out as Mary then she hasn't even came bck up since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC'sR4Me Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Actually no, I'm still here, I just loathe rampant self righteousness and refuse to respond to it. Period. Just because I may log in, as someone else noted, doesn't mean I HAVE to respond. And nah, I'm not Mary. How was it put? Nice flight of fancy there? Just because someone doesn't agree with slander does not make them the individual in question. Really, that's an average five year old's attempt at self validation. Well ya'll have fun standing up on your respective soap boxes, because like I said, I'm through with this particular discussion, and will simply continue to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 >>Actually no, I'm still here, I just loathe rampant self righteousness and refuse to respond to it. << How about this. I am making a point of NOT self righteous to you BUT I want to ask a SIMPLE QUESTION Who are the officers of IBCA? Simple, honest question. Now, can you give me an answer to thst since you said you know who they are? diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC'sR4Me Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 >>Actually no, I'm still here, I just loathe rampant self righteousness and refuse to respond to it. << How about this. I am making a point of NOT self righteous to you BUT I want to ask a SIMPLE QUESTION Who are the officers of IBCA? Simple, honest question. Now, can you give me an answer to thst since you said you know who they are? diane Fair enough. I will tell you this....call the number listed on the website. If no one answers, leave a message and get the info when they call you back. Take the five minutes of effort it will take to do so. This is what I did. I'm not dragging anyone's name into this, I don't have the right to do that. I will give the same respect I expect in return. I will only speak for myself and on own my behalf. I think that's only fair and right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Imagine that. I'm shocked. You were asked a direct question and could not produce a direct answer. That's so ... original. I am not going to bother wasting my time calling a number where no one will answer because no one will call me back, and even if they did, the answer I got would probably be as evasive as the ones I am getting here. I am glad you are done with this topic. You showed up only to stir this one up, and are pissed off because there's not one person on the planet that agrees with your position. Quite frankly, I don't care WHO runs the IBCA. I would never, ever register my dogs with them, and I would never have anything to do with the likes of anyone who deals with them. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC'sR4Me Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Imagine that. I'm shocked. You were asked a direct question and could not produce a direct answer. That's so ... original. I am not going to bother wasting my time calling a number where no one will answer because no one will call me back, and even if they did, the answer I got would probably be as evasive as the ones I am getting here. I am glad you are done with this topic. You showed up only to stir this one up, and are pissed off because there's not one person on the planet that agrees with your position. Quite frankly, I don't care WHO runs the IBCA. I would never, ever register my dogs with them, and I would never have anything to do with the likes of anyone who deals with them. Jodi And again there you go with the assumptions and false accusations. And no, actually if you think you have the power to piss me off you're highly incorrect. You're not that significant in that capacity. Nice display of internet bravado on your part. Have a good weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Yawn...why are we still indulging this person? It's not like anyone thinks she's credible, and she adds nothing new to the discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC'sR4Me Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Yawn...why are we still indulging this person? It's not like anyone thinks she's credible, and she adds nothing new to the discussion... Who said I was a she? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Who said I was a she? Yeah ... and don't be silly. Her name's not Mary Ann, either, no matter what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Who said I was a she? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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