IBCA

[jdarling]

What a coincidence! A "breeder" gets mentioned, and all of a sudden ... *poof* ... someone we've never seen before comes running to their defense! PFM!!! Gee, we've never seen THAT before!

 

J

[cbm618]

How can you support someone after hearing first hand accounts of the conditions she keeps her dogs in!? Do you not care about the animals well-being? This is mind boggling to me.

[clara]

It's a "Buyer Beware" world out there. It's not the way we like it, but it's the way it is

 

I find all the threads about breeders and their various practices interesting, although completely inapplicable to me, because I'm a rescue sort of gal. But this was the most ludicrous statement I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot) on one of these threads. If it's a "buyer beware world out there", then how can you POSSIBLY complain about someone posting a question regarding someone's breeding practices, then others giving their opinions that the buyer should INDEED beware and not buy from them!?!? The OP wanted to know if the registry and/or breeder was reputable and people gave their OPINIONS. That's the whole point of being able to have open public discussions about this stuff... so that people don't go into situations like this blind!!!!! duh

[Journey]

How can you support someone after hearing first hand accounts of the conditions she keeps her dogs in!? Do you not care about the animals well-being? This is mind boggling to me.

 

 

Oh, that would be easy if "breeder" and Susan were one in the same.

 

With the rosy story she has posted about "her" Border Collie from Wildrose it's free positive PR if people don't read the entire thread.

 

Karen

[Journey]

Oh, that would be easy if "breeder" and Susan were one in the same.

 

With the rosy story she has posted about "her" Border Collie from Wildrose it's free positive PR if people don't read the entire thread.

 

Karen

 

 

I may stand corrected - I found this though. Why is it that if you google the telephone number on the WR website all the contacts say "Susan"?? Oh, who is the brilliant one on the boards that can back track IP Address's??

 

Karen

 

 

 

http://agads.net/page-8549.html

 

You are here: Home > Dogs & Pets

 

 

We currently have a litter of 6 week old pups that are from an Imported Grandson of Scrimegeour's Ben. We have blue merles, sable merles, sables, black and white and tri. We have males and females. Dam is a yellow sable and is a greatgranddaughter of ##Nan, *Ben, and ##Craig. Pups have excellent temperaments and are farm raised. They will have their shot, wormings, and a frontlining. They will be registered with the International Border Collie Association.

 

 

Price $400

 

 

Contact Information

 

 

Contact Name Susan

City Greater Knoxville Area

State Tennessee

ZIP 37923

Country United States

View Map Click Here to view map of area

Telephone (865) 270-6076

Website http://www.wildrosebordercollies.com/

Email

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, that would be "Susan Harris." Also known by many other names. Maryann Harrison has a long history of double-oh-seven secret agent stuff, really tiresome actually.

 

I got a dog from, let's say from an unnamed person with remarkable parallels to Maryann Harrison and her ilk. The dog came straight out of her kennels - oh my gosh, it was one of my first rescue transports ever and I'll never forget that horrible trip back from Asheville, NC with a dog that was matted so badly his skin was rotting, covered in waste, and barfing and crapping until nothing was left, from sheer terror of being out of a kennel.

 

She herself met me at a fast food place about twenty miles from her kennels, swathed in a big hat and a scarf. Very bizarre, but she gave me this long story about how the dog was really her son's dog and she was going to miss him - she even choked up and started to cry - and gave me papers and . . .unbelievably . . .a doggie biscuit wrapped in a bit of red ribbon with a note to be sure to give it to him before bedtime!

 

People like this are out there and they are extremely slick. If the evidence of the dog hadn't been right in front of my eyes, if she had had time to clean him up, the whole performance would be very convincing. She even called that night to check up on him - really, I think, to see how much I had discovered and what I thought about her considering the condition of the dog. I realized at the time that confronting her directly would do nothing, so I played dumb and quietly made inquiries - eventually she was forced to leave the state.

 

Buying a pup isn't like shopping online from Walmart. It's creating a relationship with a breeder who will be your resource for the lifetime of the pup. Ideally, if you are new to the breed, you want to find someone you can easily maintain contact with. Being able to drive over and see what the breeder does with the dogs, how they keep them, how they are treated, the style of training the breeder uses, the level of training the parent or parents have attained - all this gives you invaluable information about your future pup, and an insight into your future with your new dog. It also establishes a ground for dialog with the breeder, which should continue as your pup matures.

[Bill Fosher]

Returning to the OP's original question, I think the fact that the IBCA does not disclose any information about its ownership or management says all that needs to be said about its stature as a registry. As a corporation ("International Border Collie Association, Inc." according to its website), it is legally obligated to have officers and directors. Who are they? Its website certainly isn't telling. It doesn't mention the name of a single human being connected with its founding, ownership or management. It apparently sprang from nowhere in July 2006. That is certainly different from any other registry I've ever seen or heard tell of.

 

That information should be a matter of public record on file with the New Jersey Secretary of State's office. Even if they aren't incorporated in NJ, they should have a filing with the secretary of state indicating where they are incorporated and who their official representative (designated to receive official documents, etc.) within the state is.

[border_collie_crazy]

just wanted to toss in that e-mail friends and knowing someone for real are 2 VERY differnt things. I know a breeder who knows all the right things to say, anyone who hasent known her in RL for several years thinks she is great, she health tests, she keeps on contact with all buyers, behaves as if she genuinly cares and knows what she is doing. the reality? she lies through her teeth to anyone who cant see her dogs for themselves, her idea of "breeding quality" is "hey their in my yard!", she had every intention of breeding an extremly freaky tempermented RESCUE to her BLIND stud, I found out inadvertaly that she was already offering these pups to people who had "defective" pups from here already, obviously she did not even mention it to a single person who actually KNEW the dogs involved, the people she offered the pups to, were people she lied too, people whom she told the blind stud was only a rumor, that the rescue was a "started working BC". of coarse you can get great dogs from not so great breeders, there a name for those.. "Flukes".

[BC'sR4Me]

Boy.....I came here thinking this forum was going to be a plethera of information on the border collie breed, but 5 out of 7 posts I have read seem to be so judgemental, quite frankly it's rather put-offish for new members to this forum.

 

Everyone has a different vision of what something should be. AKC folks think that there should be a conformational standard that ensures the dog can physically do what it was bred to do, ABCA folks do not, ect. ect.

 

Why knock others' so vehemently when you're on the outside looking in? Everyone seems to forget that the ABCA didn't always exist either. They had to start somewhere and somehow. So do new registries. It doesn't make a newer registry less reputable than a older one.

 

I am glad that both organizations do exist, don't get me wrong, but if you look at all breeds today, they started out as a vision of what a dog should or should not be. And today, each registry endorses the idea of what a breed should be.

 

Take for example, the American Pit Bull Terrier. The APBT isn't registerable through the AKC (or at least used NOT to be during my days of APBT ownership) because of the word "pit" in its title.

 

This caused owners to register withh the ADBA. And come up with similar registries.

 

Yet Amstaffs and American Bulldogs, which are technically the SAME BREED as the pitbull, ARE registerable through the AKC. Same dog, similar genetics, different registries.

 

I am also a member of the IBCA. I have one of my dogs registered through them. Her pups will also be registered through them.. I have a cocker registered with the AKC. I also have two Borders registered through the ABCA.

 

What registry I use makes my dogs no more or less of my vision of a perfect dog than the next guys. My dogs are of no less quality. The benefits to each registry are what causes people to pick one or the other.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmmm...I'm guessing that since this is your first post you haven't read the "read this first" at the top of each section? You should do so--it explains very well the philosophy of the owner of this forum and probably most of the members as well. Did you even read this whole thread? While I agree that registries are often developed because the dogs being registered either don't have an existing registry or the creators of the new registry have "problem" with the old registry, and in theory there's nothing wrong with that, the fact is that IBCA was created by people who were removed from an existing registry because of poor or fraudulent breeding practices. For that reason alone I wouldn't have a dog that was in any way associated with the IBCA. You can consider that judgmental if you like, but the facts are what they are, as stated in this thread and elsewhere.

 

J.

[BC'sR4Me]

Actually I did read the entire thread. And I also read several rather mean spirited posts.

 

Insulting me by asserting that I failed to do so isn't a very nice thing to do, in and of itself.

 

You have the right not to want to associate with any IBCA members. That's fair enough. I don't believe in knocking people when I have no personal, founded knowledge or evidence against others.

 

 

Furthermore, have you called them? Have you done background research on the IBCA for yourself? Or are your assertions an assumption based on hear-say? I sincerely want to know. Because I have done my research.

 

The IBCA is located in New Jersey. None of the expelled members that have been referenced as "founding" this organization are located in NJ.

 

Perhaps someone started this registry, which as you stated happens, because they didn't AGREE with the ABCA. That is my point. Just because someone's vision is different doesn't give the merit to debase that individual with little factual evidence to go on.

[BC'sR4Me]

And as an aside, knocking others causes people to tune out the message or information being disseminated.

[Journey]

I am also a member of the IBCA. I have one of my dogs registered through them. Her pups will also be registered through them.. I have a cocker registered with the AKC. I also have two Borders registered through the ABCA.

 

What registry I use makes my dogs no more or less of my vision of a perfect dog than the next guys. My dogs are of no less quality. The benefits to each registry are what causes people to pick one or the other.

 

Welcome! I do have to wonder though - if you were looking for "information" why did you start with the Politics section?

 

These 2 statements are at odds with each other. People, can't call them "breeders", were expelled from the ABCA for a reason. Yet you choose to participate with some who have proven to be less than honest with registries. Why would you think they would change? I see it as them not wanting to play by the rules and so they just start a game between themselves and make up the rules as they go - new game is called IBCA.

 

If you are "positive" that your IBCA dog is who the "breeder" claims then good for you - only DNA can prove this beyond a doubt though. And a registry started on tainted ground can make a dog less (or more) than it really is. The registry should be to benefit the Breed not the people per se.

 

Karen

[Journey]

And as an aside, knocking others causes people to tune out the message or information being disseminated.

 

 

Who's knocking? It's a fact - people were expelled for a reason. Check the ABCA website.

 

Karen

[BC'sR4Me]

Actually I didn't start with the politics section. I've been reading the threads since I started this account yesterday. I finally found something that I felt I could comment on, because I actually had knowledge on it, and did so. I tend to read first and comment only on what I feel I can.

 

The IBCA has actually been around for a few years. It's becoming more popular now however, because the breeders who have been "expelled" are selling pups with that registry. As well as the AKC registry. So, as more pups get out there from those breeders, the organizations web hits and size will grow.

 

Furthermore, as I stated, I do view the ABCA website from time to time. And none of the listed "expelled" members are located in NJ.

 

As far as someone "less than honorable" with registries.....well, again....where's the proof? People said that about just about every registry out there. As far as DNA, yes the IBCA does offer DNA verification, that's up to the owners to decide. Remember the good ol' days before DNA verification? Did people give the registries flack or call them irreputable? Nah, the fault was the breeder's. There will always be bad breeders in ANY organization.

 

My point is, that some of us here view things a little different. We don't all have to agree, but we should respect others' points of view.

 

A registry doesn't make a quality dog. A breeder does. No matter who they are with. Heck, half of the owners of working dogs in my area could care less if thier dogs are registered or not....as long as they work.

[BC'sR4Me]

Who's knocking? It's a fact - people were expelled for a reason. Check the ABCA website.

 

Karen

 

Expelled for a reason yes. However, vague reasons such as "failure to cooperate" could mean anything. And unless I know the specifics through first hand knowledge or evidence, I just don't see it as right to belittle or knock others.

[BC'sR4Me]

Expelled for a reason yes. However, vague reasons such as "failure to cooperate" could mean anything. And unless I know the specifics through first hand knowledge or evidence, I just don't see it as right to belittle or knock others.

 

JMO

[ShoresDog]

The IBCA has actually been around for a few years. It's becoming more popular now however, because the breeders who have been "expelled" are selling pups with that registry.

Why the quotation marks around "expelled?" They were expelled. It wasn't done lightly; you could probably find more detail by searching a bit on this board and on the internet.

 

My point is, that some of us here view things a little different. We don't all have to agree, but we should respect others' points of view.

And this board does explicitly have a point of view, and it's stated clearly in the Read This First post. This is a wonderful board, full of useful BC information, but if you are looking for a board that welcomes ALL points of view on BC breeding issues, this isn't it. (I'm glad of it!)

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's lots of Border Collie registries. I just found another one recently that interests me for various reasons, though I'd stick with ABCA first and foremost unless they drastically change their philosophy. It's not about the initials or who was first or whatever. It's about, first, the principles, and second, the level of service.

 

The first few registries in the US had great ideals but fell down in terms of service. The most wonderful registry is a useless beast if they can't deliver paperwork in a timely manner, and can't guarantee the accuracy of their records.

 

That's the problem with the IBCA, for me. The people who now favor it, are folks who were expelled from other registries for falsifying records. If I go with an IBCA pup, who knows what is behind the pedigree? That's why, in spite of the evil things that were done to dogs by these people, their worst offence to the breed as a whole exists in the deceitful paper trail they've scattered through our studbook. It's an unforgivable crime, sorry.

 

Fact: paperwork was falsified - this was proven, in the one instance, by DNA - in the other most famous instance the person in question refused to cooperate, which are not the actions of a person with nothing to hide.

 

Fact: People who would do this, and moved on and created their own sandbox to play in, presumably will be playing in that sandbox by their own rules.

 

Fact: If paperwork and studbook records are simply a free-for-all, then the sky's the limit: brother/sister breedings, breeding merles to merles, breeding unhealthy dogs, pretending closer relationships to famous dogs - all are possible and can be hidden easily from the unwary customer.

 

None of this is "trashing" anyone - people simply need to be aware of what is possible with these pay-to-play registries, and consider whether they want to associate with them if that's an issue.

 

ETA: I wanted to make one other note. I am aware that some people got innocently "caught out" by owning pretty nice dogs that were associated with the doings of the two main characters in this question, and their associates. I myself owned a dog whose sire was a littermate to a dog owned by Sw****d.

 

If I were in that situation and had a line I wanted to preserve, I would go with another registry, or start yet another of my own, dedicated to accurate records and probably proven working ability of the breeding stock. At some point down the road, I'd imagine such a line of dogs could be reconciled with the ABCA in some way, though it would take much dedication and many generations of proven working ability. Just a thought.

[BC'sR4Me]

Why the quotation marks around "expelled?" They were expelled. It wasn't done lightly; you could probably find more detail by searching a bit on this board and on the internet.

And this board does explicitly have a point of view, and it's stated clearly in the Read This First post. This is a wonderful board, full of useful BC information, but if you are looking for a board that welcomes ALL points of view on BC breeding issues, this isn't it. (I'm glad of it!)

 

You might want to read a bit to get the flavor of the Boards before posting. While all views are welcome, the overall philosophy which prevails on the Boards is in line with that of the USBCC. Basically, it can be summed up as follows:

 

Actually this is what the sticky post states, so I'm sorry, are you saying, that the sticky note is now incorrect, and we're NOT allowed to have a differing opinion? Because I'm pretty sure it says "While all views are WELCOME".

 

And I have done some searching around online, internet, and in person...so my opinions stand. Besides, this topic isn't about "breeding" it's about another registry.

 

Thank you for being so welcoming.

[Laurae]

Thank you for being so welcoming.

 

Meh. Sh*t stirrers complaining about long-standing members not recognizing the brilliance of their contrarian arguments, after several of those long-standing members have rationally pointed out the valid reasons for the established views, is just soooooooo boring.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

 

There's a difference, very great, between a Board that welcomes all opinions (in other words, feel free to say what you think, as long as it's polite), and those opinions being welcomed by all on the Board. OR even a majority.

 

That's what the "While" refers to: and the implicated "but" - ie, "all views are welcome, BUT" be aware that most members here won't scream happy-happy joy-joy at the thought of commerical breeding being promoted, dogs being abused, unhealthy puppies being sold, and lying pedigrees being promulgated as fact.

 

ETA: Seems a bit early for this stuff - is there a deep snowcover in other parts of the world?

[BC'sR4Me]

There's lots of Border Collie registries. I just found another one recently that interests me for various reasons, though I'd stick with ABCA first and foremost unless they drastically change their philosophy. It's not about the initials or who was first or whatever. It's about, first, the principles, and second, the level of service.

 

Well first of all thank you for at least considering what I had to say, that's a welcome change Honestly, I think level of service is subjective. Personally I've had good and bad experiences with the ABCA registry. So, I can't slam either one

 

The first few registries in the US had great ideals but fell down in terms of service. The most wonderful registry is a useless beast if they can't deliver paperwork in a timely manner, and can't guarantee the accuracy of their records.

 

This is true, but there are never any firm gaurantees in anything. The most we can truely hope for is the best possible job. And so far, I've had luck with both

 

That's the problem with the IBCA, for me. The people who now favor it, are folks who were expelled from other registries for falsifying records.

 

We are? To the best of my knowledge, I haven't bred a single pup, so how would I falsify anything?. Not that I would do so, but that's a blanket statement, and statements like that are what made me respond in the first place.

 

If I go with an IBCA pup, who knows what is behind the pedigree?

 

Well, my dog's IBCA registered, and I know the breeder AND the lines behind the pup. They are similar to my ABCA registered dog, so it depends on the purchaser doing thier homework

 

That's why, in spite of the evil things that were done to dogs by these people, their worst offence to the breed as a whole exists in the deceitful paper trail they've scattered through our studbook. It's an unforgivable crime, sorry.

 

Fact: paperwork was falsified - this was proven, in the one instance, by DNA - in the other most famous instance the person in question refused to cooperate, which are not the actions of a person with nothing to hide.

 

Again.....two sides to every story....I won't judge another individual based on hear-say

 

Fact: People who would do this, and moved on and created their own sandbox to play in, presumably will be playing in that sandbox by their own rules.

 

Again, blanket statement.

 

 

Fact: If paperwork and studbook records are simply a free-for-all, then the sky's the limit: brother/sister breedings, breeding merles to merles, breeding unhealthy dogs, pretending closer relationships to famous dogs - all are possible and can be hidden easily from the unwary customer.

 

LOL are you serious??? One of ABCA registered collies is a line bred dog. His half brother was also his FATHER. It was an accidental breeding, yet the owner's registered him anyway. I have his papers, so I don't know that I really buy into that notion.

 

None of this is "trashing" anyone - people simply need to be aware of what is possible with these pay-to-play registries, and consider whether they want to associate with them if that's an issue.

 

I wasn't referring to anyone asking questions or answering them in a rational way. I was actually referring to some of the snide remarks that were made in this thread. For the record, anything that charges a fee, IMO is a "pay to play" registry.

 

ETA: I wanted to make one other note. I am aware that some people got innocently "caught out" by owning pretty nice dogs that were associated with the doings of the two main characters in this question, and their associates. I myself owned a dog whose sire was a littermate to a dog owned by Sw****d.

 

If I were in that situation and had a line I wanted to preserve, I would go with another registry, or start yet another of my own, dedicated to accurate records and probably proven working ability of the breeding stock. At some point down the road, I'd imagine such a line of dogs could be reconciled with the ABCA in some way, though it would take much dedication and many generations of proven working ability. Just a thought.

 

That's a great idea! Thanks! Perhaps that is something that should be done. Perhaps it's something I myself will do, although I'm not really interested in reconciling anything with anyone.

 

I figure if someone wants to peg my dogs guilty by association, then that's fine, I'll keep the line with what they're registered with. Blaming the animal for a human's fault is never the right thing to do, and pretty much this is what it all sounds like to me when good animals are barred from a registry.

 

However, I'm sorry, but until someone proves positive that these individuals started this registry, I still don't see much evidence to support that assertation. Especially when the registry is located at least 4 states away from the two individuals in question.

[ShoresDog]

And I have done some searching around online, internet, and in person...so my opinions stand. Besides, this topic isn't about "breeding" it's about another registry.

 

You're right, I didn't make the distinction. Sorry! Breeding is what is important. What gets me going is that it does seem to me that if a registry supports those who don't practice responsible breeding, then supporting that registry is supporting irresponsible breeding. I don't think you're going to find many IBCA buyers with the argument that the expelled breeders don't live in New Jersey. However, there are a lot of other useful topics here, and with your dogs and experience, I imagine you will have a lot to contribute to the training, behavior, health, pictures, etc. topics. Let's go there and drop this one!

[BC'sR4Me]

You're right, I didn't make the distinction. Sorry! Breeding is what is important. What gets me going is that it does seem to me that if a registry supports those who don't practice responsible breeding, then supporting that registry is supporting irresponsible breeding. I don't think you're going to find many IBCA buyers with the argument that the expelled breeders don't live in New Jersey. However, there are a lot of other useful topics here, and with your dogs and experience, I imagine you will have a lot to contribute to the training, behavior, health, pictures, etc. topics. Let's go there and drop this one!

 

 

Sounds good. I will agree to disagree.