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leanne

Still waiting for my puppy.....

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Casiat,

 

When someone joins a board that promotes the responsible breeding of border collies as working stockdogs, they should expect the members of that board to speak up when they see something happening that they feel is wrong. I feel that this breeding is not doing right by the breed, and I see no reason to keep that a secret.

 

You talk about how many litters you've had, how they go to dogsport homes, how they are socialized, how they are registered and their health, but not once do you mention your goals for the litters. If you were trying to produce good sheepdogs, you would not be using that stud. If you were trying to produce KC show dogs you would not be using a stud with an "incorrect" coat. I'm sorry to be rude, but I find it difficult to be diplomatic when I see puppies being bred for no legitimate reason.

 

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that nobody is saying these things with the intention of upsetting Leanne.

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The "curly coated Border Collie" would not simply go curly-coated from going in the water. If this was true, every dog in the world would have a curly coat from being exposed to water, rain, puddles etc. :rolleyes: It obviously has some poodle in it's lineage somewhere, which is not surprising due to the large variety of intact dogs this breeder possesses. Not to mention PURPOSEFULLY breeding mutts and selling them off when thousands die in shelters every year.

 

While I agree with everything else you said, the curly coated dog might not have Poodle in him. My foster, who is 100% Border Collie (He has ABCA Papers and all!) has a curly coat like that. And his coat does curl up more when he goes out in the rain.

 

I've never seen another Border Collie with a curly coat like that, but Mickey (my foster) is definitely the real deal.

 

I'm not sticking up for this breeder - just for curly coated Border Collies, rare though they may be!! :D:D:D

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Casiat,

 

When someone joins a board that promotes the responsible breeding of border collies as working stockdogs, they should expect the members of that board to speak up when they see something happening that they feel is wrong. I feel that this breeding is not doing right by the breed, and I see no reason to keep that a secret.

 

You talk about how many litters you've had, how they go to dogsport homes, how they are socialized, how they are registered and their health, but not once do you mention your goals for the litters. If you were trying to produce good sheepdogs, you would not be using that stud. If you were trying to produce KC show dogs you would not be using a stud with an "incorrect" coat. I'm sorry to be rude, but I find it difficult to be diplomatic when I see puppies being bred for no legitimate reason.

 

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that nobody is saying these things with the intention of upsetting Leanne.

I completely agree. That's very well said.

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You talk about how many litters you've had, how they go to dogsport homes, how they are socialized, how they are registered and their health, but not once do you mention your goals for the litters. If you were trying to produce good sheepdogs, you would not be using that stud. If you were trying to produce KC show dogs you would not be using a stud with an "incorrect" coat. I'm sorry to be rude, but I find it difficult to be diplomatic when I see puppies being bred for no legitimate reason.

 

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that nobody is saying these things with the intention of upsetting Leanne.

 

Good - that was my main reason for logging on here. I do not want anyone to be upset by the mere mention of having one of my pups.

 

The stud dog does not have an incorrect coat consequently this does not follow through to his offspring. I hve seen his progeny and they are super bouncy pups with bucket loads of character and wonderful temperaments.

 

My reasons for breeding........

 

My Lucca has an excellent temperament, her hip score is good, her attitude to learning and achieving in our chose sports is excellent. I am aware of her faults (no dog is the perfect dog and I don't look at my dogs with rose tinted glasses!!) and with this mating I am hoping to correct these minor flaws.

 

I will be keeping a pup (probably 2) from this litter for obedience and agility as well as K9 Multisports.

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Good - that was my main reason for logging on here. I do not want anyone to be upset by the mere mention of having one of my pups.

 

My reasons for breeding........

 

My Lucca has an excellent temperament, her hip score is good, her attitude to learning and achieving in our chose sports is excellent. I am aware of her faults (no dog is the perfect dog and I don't look at my dogs with rose tinted glasses!!) and with this mating I am hoping to correct these minor flaws.

 

I don't breed, nor do I even own a BC, but I wanted to comment on that. I'm not trying to be offensive or rude, but surely you need more reasons to breed than just that? I compete in dog events too and I know there are hundreds of dogs out there with decent looks, a good attitude, and good hips - yet their owners don't go out and breed them just because of that. Now, there are lines of sport-bred border collies, but usually the sires/dams have proven themselves as great sport dogs -ie, becoming an agility trial CH or an obedience CH or something like that.

 

You mentioned you chose this particular stud to correct some minor faults the Dam of the litter has, but....from a conformation standpoint, it seems like several of the other studs this breeder has are more "correct" in the first place? Confused....

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If you don't mind me asking, how did you make the decision to breed to this particular stud (what did you LIKE about him)? Will he correct any of the flaws in the dam? What attributes does he have in particular that you want to see in your litter (besides bouncy and temperament)? Has the stud had his hips/eyes OFA/CERF tested? These are questions I ask breeders when I'm looking at pups. Do you compete with your dogs or use them for livestock? What particular sports? I see you may keep a puppy or two for yourself for agility, but what do the parents do?

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Good - that was my main reason for logging on here. I do not want anyone to be upset by the mere mention of having one of my pups.

 

The stud dog does not have an incorrect coat consequently this does not follow through to his offspring. I hve seen his progeny and they are super bouncy pups with bucket loads of character and wonderful temperaments.

 

My reasons for breeding........

 

My Lucca has an excellent temperament, her hip score is good, her attitude to learning and achieving in our chose sports is excellent. I am aware of her faults (no dog is the perfect dog and I don't look at my dogs with rose tinted glasses!!) and with this mating I am hoping to correct these minor flaws.

 

I will be keeping a pup (probably 2) from this litter for obedience and agility as well as K9 Multisports.

 

First of all - I come in peace! :rolleyes:

 

I'll tie this in in a minute, but I want to try to draw a parallel that I think will help you understand why Leanne got the kind of responses that she did:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Suppose, I went to a message board dedicated to saving and restoring historical buildings. Say it's a very active board and the posters were very passionate about their work with the buildings. Many of them had experienced heartbreak over the demolition of buildings that meant a lot to them and they had shared successes together in saving others.

 

Now, I come along and make a post stating that I am planning to have historical building that I happened to own demolished to build a new hospital for my local community.

 

There's a point to this - I promise!!

 

The folks on the board, who have a real passion for saving those types of buildings might make posts urging me to look into other options - maybe the hospital could be built elsewhere, or the building could be moved, etc. It wouldn't be anything personal - it's just that they would give advise in line with the mission of the board. They would want me to really think about the decision that I was making in a way that I hadn't before.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, my point!

 

This isn't just a Border Collie board. It is that. Many of us are ordinary pet dog folks who play different sports with our Border Collies. Some of us have dogs from breeders, some of us have dogs from rescue. Some do stockwork, others don't. Among ourselves we have a lot in common and sometimes we get into real disagreements, but we share the purpose of this board in common.

 

The purpose of this board itself, to my understanding, is to preserve the Border Collie as a working stockdog. Those of us who don't work our dogs on stock are made very welcome here, but there is an understanding that we are all behind the idea that Border Collies should only be bred from dogs that are actively working dogs (on stock).

 

It's not that we shouldn't get Border Collies for other purposes, it's just that when we do, we can truly help to maintain the breed as a working breed by getting our dogs through rescue, or from breeders who are breeding from working stock. There is more to it than that even, but that's the general idea.

 

So, when anyone comes on here and says that they are planning to get a puppy from a breeder and the stud and dam are not actively working dogs (on stock), the members of the board are going to encourage the poster to rethink the decision and consider options that are in line with the mission of the board. And they are going to do so on the board because this mission and purpose is actually a very, very good thing on here.

 

It's nothing personal. There is no disrespect meant toward the poster, nor toward you personally. In fact, there is true concern for the dogs and the folks who are looking to obtain them. I think we all hope that she will look more deeply into the bigger picture of why the Border Collie is the dog that it is today and choose a dog from lines that contribute to the preservation of the breed as the entity that it was developed to be as a working stockdog.

 

And that goes beyond things like super bouncy pups with bucket loads of character and wonderful temperaments, hip scores, attitudes to learn and achieve in sports like obedience, agility, and K9 Multisports. It's the connection to the actively working dog.

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Okay okay, time for a humor break. I read on the internet (so it must be true!) that you don't need to cross your working dog with a poodle to get a curly coat.

 

LOOKIE HERE! You can do it with a kit.

 

Sample result (formerly a doberman...I think):

 

oodlemaker1.jpg

 

After all, this thread is, ahem, in the Gallery. It needed more photos, don't you agree?

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Okay okay, time for a humor break. I read on the internet (so it must be true!) that you don't need to cross your working dog with a poodle to get a curly coat.

 

LOOKIE HERE! You can do it with a kit.

 

Sample result (formerly a doberman...I think):

 

After all, this thread is, ahem, in the Gallery. It needed more photos, don't you agree?

 

That's great! I love their Disclaimer and note at the end...

 

Disclaimer - 'Dressing up' your dog will increase the chance of it biting you. If you copy images, please mention this. Do not put clothing or accessories on your dog unless it is for a good cause (eg. BSL, dog cruelty, awareness campaign to reduce animal euthanasia rates.)

 

Note: All kits are unpredictable in size, appearance, and quality. We really have no idea what we are doing.

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Leanne,

 

I am simply curious as to whether or not you have decided to purchase the puppy. Any new developments?

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Leanne,

 

I am simply curious as to whether or not you have decided to purchase the puppy. Any new developments?

 

I was wondering the same thing. I really hope that she gets a great puppy that can give her much happiness. :rolleyes:

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Guest ChrisJ

Hi, I have read this thread through from beginning to end and would just like to say how shocked and appalled I am at the level of self-righteous inflammatory remarks that have been judgementally thrown at both Carol (Casiat) and Angela (Detania). Leanne started this thread because she wanted to share her excitement and joy at the impending birth of her puppy with other border collie lovers. If I were in Leanne's position I would feel humiliated and judged and I would not be surprised if she does not return to the boards. If you are still reading this thread Leanne, I personally hope that you have decided to still buy one of Luca's puppies. I cannot believe that on a supposedly friendly forum anyone would feel themselves justified in throwing ignorant accusations at a named breeder where it can publically be read by all. The level of ignorance is surely illustrated most overtly by the comment that the sire 'obviously has poodle somewhere in his lineage' to have a curly coat - and you dare to presume that you have a greater knowledge of the breed than either Leanne or Carol?? Yet again, someone criticised the fact that the dogs at Detania are not ISDS registered - look carefully and you will see that the sire himself is dual registered with both the KC and ISDS. Before hurtling such flippant remarks around on a public forum I would suggest that you do your research on the 'border collie health' sites, and such as 'anadune' where you will find that all of Angela's breeding stock is CEA/CL/TNS tested and hip-scored. Indeed, Red Marbell (Ollie) has an excellent hip-score of just 3-3. The Detania bloodlines are in many of the top border collie kennels in this country, which in itself stands testament to the quality and health of her dogs. As for the person who questions Angela's ability to pay for the food/treatment etc of her dogs - how downright rude to speak so of someone who is a complete stranger to you! Please, do your research and get your facts straight before you so thoughtlessly slander somebody's name and affix in the future.

 

Carol, I wish you the very best of luck with the puppies - I will be watching the website to wait for pictures! And Leanne, good luck and I hope you have lots fun with your new friend when you finally get to take him/her home!! :rolleyes:

 

Chris

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Guest pax

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

 

 

 

It just makes them come back for more and they are messy creatures to have about.

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The level of ignorance is surely illustrated most overtly by the comment that the sire 'obviously has poodle somewhere in his lineage' to have a curly coat - and you dare to presume that you have a greater knowledge of the breed than either Leanne or Carol?? Chris

 

 

What the??? lol :rolleyes: Sorry, I dont buy it, and I really dont think anyone else here is that stupid either. You have 1 post, and you just "HAPPEN" to come over here into the photos and post your one post for a breeder we've all spoken out about.

 

I dont believe it ignorant to oppose breeding Border Collies with other dogs. If you want a mix go to a shelter. There are millions there. I personally wouldnt care if the dog in question was mixed. I STILL wouldnt go to this breeder just for the fact I'd be supporting someone who obviously doesnt give a rats pattotey about preserving the breed, and just creates more mixes when there is obviously already an overpopulation problem.

 

I think all of us were very kind in voicing our concerns. Its pretty bad when the only one sticking up for the breeder is someone who obviously was sent from them to sick up for them. Besides this board is FOR the preservation of the Border Collies, why would you expect us to support jacking up the breed?

 

I for one dont care if you think it rude, arrogant or whatever kind of insult. I WILL speak out against this persons breeding practices, and anyone else who breeds irresponsibly.

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Guest ChrisJ

I'm sorry, 'smileyzookie', but I have not been sent from the breeder at all - I doubt she even knows about this thread. I came across the thread yesterday, after looking for a border collie-specific forum and only managing to find this one. The gallery was where I went first - I like to look at photos of other people's dogs, strangely enough - so yes, I did just "HAPPEN" to come across this thread as it was still current. Again, just another example of people jumping to conclusions and wildly throwing accusations about which are ungrounded.

 

I would also like to point out that I do not condone intentional crossbreeding, whether it involves border collies or not. It was not this point that I was arguing for. Rather, I was attempting to rectify some of the mistakes that people had made in their comments about the purebed border collies at Detania and, in particular, the sire of the puppies that Leanne was talking about. Whatever your, my, or anyone's opinions are on crossbreeding, I refute the claim that Angela Gillespie is therefore 'dilluting' or 'jacking up' the border collie breed. She does not sell her crossbred puppies under false pretences, calling them 'border collies' and when she breeds a litter of border collies she does only cross purebred to purebred. Also, the implication was explicit that Leanne ought not to buy a Casiat puppy because a responsible breeder would not use a Detania sire. This I found to be highly offensive towards Carol, as her choice of a pure-bred border collie stud has no bearing on Angela's breeding of crosses. I don't believe I mentioned the cross-breeds in my original post, as to discuss this was not my intention - what angered me were the comments on the purity of the stud dog, the health of the other border collies and the personal remarks about Angela's ability to care for her dogs and her love of the breed, as well as Carol's choice of stud and reasons for breeding. I felt that this thread turned into an unjustifiable and personal attack upon both Carol and Angela Gillespie and just wanted to add some support to Carol and Leanne.

 

I don't dispute that the initial intentions of the posters on the thread were kindly meant towards Leanne, it is the manner in which it turned into an ungrounded free-for-all against Casiat and Detania that appalled me. A public forum is not the place to air such opinions while they remain speculative.

 

Chris

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I'm sorry, 'smileyzookie', but I have not been sent from the breeder at all - I doubt she even knows about this thread. I came across the thread yesterday, after looking for a border collie-specific forum and only managing to find this one.

 

Humm.. obviously you didnt read the threads then.. She posted more than once. I still dont buy it.

 

Also, the implication was explicit that Leanne ought not to buy a Casiat puppy because a responsible breeder would not use a Detania sire. This I found to be highly offensive towards Carol, as her choice of a pure-bred border collie stud has no bearing on Angela's breeding of crosses.

 

Actually it has everything to do with it. I would not want to support a breeder who was doing crosses or breeding with a breeder doing crosses. There are too many mixed dogs out there to create more. There are also to many breeders who breed responsibly to go to one who isnt. The idea here is preserving the breed.

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Guest ChrisJ

Humm.. obviously you didnt read the threads then.. She posted more than once. I still dont buy it.

 

Thank you for accusing me of falsehood once again, as I clearly stated that I have read the thread from beginning to end. You implied that I had been sent from Angela Gillespie. The breeder who posted on here was Carol of Casiat border collies. I will once again state that I am neither a friend nor an associate of Angela Gillespie, but I am aware of the positive impact that her breeding lines of purebred border collies have had on the UK's border collies over the last twenty plus years. Whether you choose to believe me or not is up to you, but I do not see what reason I would have for deceiving you about my own identity.

 

I think that now is the time to listen to Pax and PSmitty and end this thread here as we are clearly not going to agree and there is no point discussing it further.

 

Chris

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Hey y'all - just wanted to point out that the curly coat shows up from time to time in border collies... no poodle necessary. :D

 

I know many of us state this over and over, but border collies should only be bred for their proven livestock working ability. I personally would choose not to buy a puppy that was bred otherwise.

 

Edited to fix my awful grammar. :rolleyes:

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I know many of us state this over and over, but border collies should only be bred for their proven livestock working ability. I would personally would choose not buy a puppy that was bred otherwise.

 

:rolleyes: ditto.

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Thank you for accusing me of falsehood once again, as I clearly stated that I have read the thread from beginning to end. You implied that I had been sent from Angela Gillespie. The breeder who posted on here was Carol of Casiat border collies.........

...I think that now is the time to listen to Pax and PSmitty and end this thread here as we are clearly not going to agree and there is no point discussing it further.

 

Chris

I dont know where you got that implied you were sent from Gillespie. Either way it doesnt matter I still don't believe you. I agree we (you and I) wont agree so I will drop it with you.

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Guest WoobiesMom

Leanne, I hope that after reading everything you will reconsider providing financial incentive to a breeder who recklessly produces mixes. As was stated previously, there are thousands of those in shelters every day who die. Even if the pup you are purchasing is produced by two purebreeds, there are serious concerns about a breeder who recreationally mixes breeds just for the heck of it. Does she provide a health guarantee? Does she take back pups with problems? And if so, what would she do with it? Do you see pups on her property that didn't quite work out (health or temperment wise) that she kept because she stands behind her breeding? Do you have a list of previous purchasers to speak with you about their experiences with her and the pups they purchased from her? If the answers are no, there are serious concerns to be heeded.

 

I think it's like this: If I served you a plate of food that held finely prepared, expensive Kobe beef, rotted mashed potatoes, and less than desirable steamed carrots, would you really feel fine eating the beef and leaving the rest or would you have concerns about the entire plate and the establishment? I guess it boils down to how you feel about recreational breeding and increasing the population of a group of animals already in dire need of homes. If you want a purebreed, you can even find those in a BC rescue group and not encourage this type of breeding. Please don't encourage this practice.

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Hey y'all - just wanted to point out that the curly coat shows up from time to time in border collies... no poodle necessary.

 

Yes, my first Border Collie was a curly coat. I have nothing against curly coats. :rolleyes:

 

I do have a problem with people breeding MUTTS though and if someone is breeding mutts, you just cannot trust their breedings (even more so if they have a TON of dogs).

 

Katelynn

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This is all very interesting to read, having come across this thread 12 years later, having been searching for "Detania". I bought a pup from Angela in 2008, so around the same time as the OP. He's our 5th Border Collie and the best to date. Good natured, gentle, quick to learn, easy to train, good with children and strangers and healthy - even into his 11th year. We have been very lucky to have him. I hope the OP was not put off by some of the above posts and has been as fortunate as we have been.

We got to meet the dam and sire and they were very good natured dog - dad was still the biggest collie I've ever seen and out Ben has taken after him, although he's still one size down from him.

We shared deep misgivings about the "Gremlins", but there was absolutely no evidence at all that any "contamination" in the BC line, with certificates for BC KC registrations going back for 5 generation

Sadly, Angela died several years ago and her husband continues, alongside Angela's daughter. I was keen to see any evidence of the quality of their breeding since Angela died but, other than the fact that their presence seems to have moved from their own website to pictures of "cute puppies" on Facebook (not a good sign!), I can't find any reliable information that's been published since Angela passed away. Has anyone any recent experience?

2016-11-15_10_40_26.jpg

2018-09-09_10_32_06.jpg

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