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New member, new BC mom & NEED HELP!


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Im also a Ceasar Millan fan. I just wanted to add something. First I do not agree with normal every day person rolling a dog, its a good way to get bit. But.... He does say if you dont roll the dog correctly, the dog knows you dont know what you're doing. There was one show with a bulldog that was aggressive. The man rolled the dog and was like sort of kneeling on top of him. Ceasar immediately said, the reason the roll isnt working is because he isnt doing it correctly, and the dog knows this. Just make sure you're doing it right if you insist on doing it.

 

Good luck

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It's good that you are searching for ways to help your puppy behave more appropriately. Dog behavior and training has become a huge interest of mine because I had a difficult dog (a fearful dog, in my case). I've done a lot of reading and study and I am often amazed by how much there is to learn.

 

One thing that I've learned along the way is that dominance theory is just that - a theory. There are other theories, and methods of training that go with those theories.

 

I would recommend reading some materials that are based on those other theories, to get a fuller picture of the training options that you have for Bindi.

 

You might want to check out "Click To Calm" by Emma Parsons. I recommend that to many of my students who have dogs that need to learn some self control. Another good basic training book is "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller.

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I have a hard headed dog and I did "roll" him once. It was well called for and he respected me and the other dogs afterwards, PLUS it was not my house and I have issues about my dog behaving in another person's house. I have owned 6 "keepers" fostered a lot, had 5 great litters- mostly return buyers. Did all the testing- yep- I'm a good breeder. BUT....I have been out of the puppy world for a long time and my methods are old, so I expect criticism and gladly will learn from new methods. Right now is the first time I'm training on a flat collar. My first time clicker training. So, I like to hear all the new methods.

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One thing you might also try is paying careful attention to what happens when Bindi jumps on people and make sure that she's getting the information you want her to have about jumping (e.g. that it doesn't get her anything).

 

For instance, if she jumps on your son and he squeals and pushes her away with his hands (or something similar)--that could be telling her that jumping on him is a lot of fun because it ups the energy in the room. If she jumps up and is sometimes allowed to give kisses before being pushed away, that tells her that jumping might be worth the gamble. If sometimes it's fun for her and sometimes it results in her being rolled on her back with her muzzle grabbed and being yelled at, it might tell her that sometimes it's worth the gamble, but that humans are pretty unpredictable so it might be worth developing some early defensive strategies just in case her life is endangered--like growling and snapping.

 

I've found that it's pretty effective to make a HUGE show of ignoring jumping. Cross your hands across your chest, turn your back, close your eyes and put your chin in the air and don't move until she's on the ground. Basically, indicate to her that dogs can't be seen unless they are on the floor. The main problem is that you can't let anyone reinforce her for jumping and if you think they will, you have to manage her so that she's not in a position to jump.

 

This is not necessarily the fastest way to do things (shock collars probably work much faster), but it is an effective, non-violent way to teach her what you want her to do and also to help her understand that resources like love and play get doled out by humans who make the rules--and one of those is not jumping.

 

Another way to teach not jumping is to tether her to something and slowly walk toward her. If she goes to jump up, then you walk away again. YOu can also have your son practice this (with your supervision).

 

As a 6 mos. old pup, one of the things she has to learn is self-control. And my experience with training young dogs is that it really does take a couple of years for them to grow up--and BCs tend to be slow maturing anyway. It can be quite frustrating (as I thought this morning when one of my yearlings woke me up at 4:30 for the umpteenth night in a row with whining and scratching at his crate not because he needed to go out, but just to get up and get the day started) and I think people are led to many ineffective strategies because of that frustration.

 

The thing about positive reinforcement (as opposed to positive corrections like alpha rolls) is that you are actively working to communicate what you want your dog TO do rather than what you want the dog NOT to do. If you correct a dog, you will stop the behavior (and sometimes that's what you need), but you are not communicating what behavior you prefer to the one that got corrected. If Bindi doesn't get consistent information about what you want her to do instead of jump, she'll keep trying out the jump.

 

On the nipping--in addition to yelping and ending the play, the other thing I've found works really well (though somewhat indirectely) is to hold a piece of bait in your fist and let the pup worry it. Just sit there for a while and eventually the pup stops--only then do you open your hand and give the treat--the whole time not saying a word. This is another way of teaching self-control. Does she have plenty of things she's allowed to chew on?

 

Also, the nipping and jumping may be related--dogs that are often pushed off with hands sometimes develop nipping behaviors as a response. If you are going to physically correct the jump, try doing it with your torso (by leaning into her) or your hip (again by moving into the jump and pushing her back) rather than your hands.

 

She's lucky she has you looking for ways to help her.

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Pippin's person - a lot of what you said makes sense to me. Yes, Bindi is getting a reaction from all of us when she jumps up. She is behaving just like my 11 year old. He seems to get juice from negative energy too.

 

You all have given me so much great information. I'm off work today and headed to the bookstore.

 

Mary

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The trainer said not to say anything because saying no bite means at some point bite is ok and we don't want biting of any kind.She hasn't figured out that she can't mouth us at any time. I'm trying to be patient and work on it but I want the nipping to stop.

 

I have to disagree with your trainer. I taught River 'no bite' as a puppy and I would say it in an authoritative voice and hold her muzzle for a sec or 2. It took SEVERAL weeks! (I started when she was 8wks). It will probably take longer since your pup has been allowed to do it for some time. The reason I disagree is that when I started training agility (around 9mos) with River, she would get excited and jump up at my outstretched arm - her excitement lead to snapping at my arm (which is not allowed in agility) and I said 'no bite' and she knew IMMEDIATELY that she was not allowed to use her teeth. 'no bite' to her means don't use my teeth. Obviously she must use her teeth for eating so she does use her teeth to well... bite her food. I've also used 'no bite' when I wanted her to stop trying to rip the outside material off a tennis ball. She can hold the ball, but she can't bite it. Worked beautifully.

 

River doesn't go around 'biting' anything inappropriate anymore. I haven't said the 'no bite' command in many many months (she's now 18mos). In fact I don't think I've said it since she was 10mos old. But I bet she would know what it means if i ever needed it. I could experiment and say no bite when she's wrestling with my other dogs and see if she stops... bet she would. :rolleyes:

 

My poorly made point is, I don't think that if you teach a dog a 'don't do this command' that the dog understands it to mean 'well when mom doesn't say I can't do it, then I can'.

 

 

Other then that you have some great advice and sound like you are on the right track!! Keep us posted!

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I also have done the alpha roll on many occasions. This is what was recommended at our basic obedience class to show her that I'm the big dog in the house. They also recommended holding her under her front legs, from behind, and up on her back legs. The trainer said this is another way to show dominance. They recommended my boys do that to her as well (with my supervision). She goes limp for me and my oldest DS and lets us hold her that way as long as we want. She isn't as compliant with my youngest DS so we just continue to work at it so she knows he is not a litter mate.

 

 

Bindi's mom, please look into finding a new trainer who uses positive methods.

 

here's an article on finding a good trainer:

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/choose_trainer.aspx

 

and here's a search engine for finding trainers:

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/us.asp

 

 

 

I just read this thread for the first time and am really surprised that people are still using alpha rolls. :rolleyes:

 

This is my favorite article on the subject, "Alpha Schmalpha,"

http://www.k9chops.com/articles/dognotwolf.html

 

I really do think that people get out of hand in thinking that dogs are wolves. There are also so many misunderstandings of what wolves are doing with each other. In a wolf "alpha roll" as Gary Wilkes points out,

"the dominant wolf does not physically hold the other animal to the ground, the subordinate wolf voluntarily submits"

 

Here is a picture I took of my dog being corrected by an older, higher status dog:

445265119_b402bd6863_b.jpg

 

Notice that she is *not* pinning him down. She corrected him with her voice and posture and he laid down to show her that he understood that she is dominant and he was rude. Since I don't have fangs and hackles, I don't try to imitate the dominant dog's behavior. I taught my dog the word "no" and that works for us.

 

Here's a good article on positive ways to teach your dog self-control.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/selfpg.html

 

Good luck with Bindi! She is super-cute and sounds like a lot of young dogs--ready to be good, but not sure how to do it!

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Bindi's mom, please look into finding a new trainer who uses positive methods.

 

here's an article on finding a good trainer:

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/choose_trainer.aspx

 

and here's a search engine for finding trainers:

http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/us.asp

I just read this thread for the first time and am really surprised that people are still using alpha rolls. :rolleyes:

 

This is my favorite article on the subject, "Alpha Schmalpha,"

http://www.k9chops.com/articles/dognotwolf.html

 

I really do think that people get out of hand in thinking that dogs are wolves. There are also so many misunderstandings of what wolves are doing with each other. In a wolf "alpha roll" as Gary Wilkes points out,

"the dominant wolf does not physically hold the other animal to the ground, the subordinate wolf voluntarily submits"

 

 

 

Hey Bindi's mom: Just use your gut and your intuition. I suppose that what I do could be called an 'alpha roll' when I get down on my hands and knees when my pup has lost all control of his emotions and I lie him down and rub his tummy and stroke his head till he calms down. It's true that the dominant wolf doesn't do it this way. Wolves use growls and body language to get another wolf to submit. But we aren't wolves so we use what we have. The fact is that dogs, like wolves do understand body language and call it what you want, an alpha roll or whatever, dogs understand this posture.

 

It certainly works for me with my pup. And it calms him and best of all, he likes it and seems to understand what it means.

 

Don't get caught up in the for or against debate. Just trust yourself, love your dog and try to do what comes naturally. You will know what to do intuitively.

 

my 2 cents....again.

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I'm writing this again because I haven't yet learned how to quote stuff and reply. I'm computer illiterate still. But I want you to read this so I am posting it again.

 

 

 

Hey Bindi's mom:

 

Just use your gut and your intuition. I suppose that what I do could be called an 'alpha roll' when I get down on my hands and knees when my pup has lost all control of his emotions and I lie him down and rub his tummy and stroke his head till he calms down. It's true that the dominant wolf doesn't do it this way. Wolves use growls and body language to get another wolf to submit. But we aren't wolves so we use what we have. The fact is that dogs, like wolves, do understand body language and call it what you want, an alpha roll or whatever, dogs understand this posture.

 

It certainly works for me with my pup. And it calms him and best of all, he likes it and seems to understand what it means.

 

Don't get caught up in the for or against debate. Just trust yourself, love your dog and try to do what comes naturally. You will know what to do intuitively.

 

my 2 cents....again.

 

Tara

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