Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Breeding for companion performance events doesn't add anything, and in fact detracts from the overall ability of the breed, because just like conformation, you are not selecting for the things that make a well-rounded working dog. Conformation breeders are focusing on what the legs look like, how long the back is, the angle of the various joints, the shape of the head and the expression of the dog (not to mention coat, color, eye color and other really meaningless standards). Breeders who do this are not producing the best possible livestock working dogs because, well, to see whether the parents work livestock, you have to train them and work them on livestock. In a similiar way there's no sense claiming your horse has any hope of producing winning racehorses if he doesn't actually race at any time before breeding (and has no record of producing those winners). Working livestock is what makes the Border Collie what it is - smart, adaptable, biddable, athletic. Breeders who want pups who will be useful on livestock don't breed for extremes, they breed for balance. A dog must have lots of prey drive but lots of ability to control its impulses. A dog must be clever and independent, yet trainable. A dog must be sensitive to movement but not over reactive. The useful dog has both an on that is full-on, and an off button for when stock must not be worked - which happens more than not. A useful dog is excellent with people, not snappish, not ill-tempered, and physically sound - all these things would hinder a dog that was truly being worked in a wide variety of situations, not to mention going to trials. An honest working trainer and breeder will pick the dogs that represent the most potential to produce pups like that, and ONLY those dogs. That's a lot of criteria for one breeding! And the standard has to be met every single time or things start falling apart really fast. Now go back to breeding for sports. The problem with sport dogs is that breeding for excellence in these pursuits tends to focus attention on just a few characteristics, and even more problematic, they often welcome extremes rather than moderating them - prey drive, reactivity, independence (or biddability). These are not useful dogs for a gene pool that requires moderatiion and balance as the standard. It is much like saying, wouldn't this breeder that is breeding Chinese cresteds with fur, have something to add to the Chinese crested breed? Well, not if you think a responsible breeder should be guided by whatever is the standard for his or her breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Chinese Cresteds do come in a fur veriety as well (the "powerder-puff"). Sorry, I couldn't resist! Back to the topic of breeding and ears now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Powder puff Cresteds are do not have true fur - it's hair, like a yorkie's single coat. Also, since it's a recessive trait, it's considered a big no-no to breed straight PP's - which further proves my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 And this isn't the only unplanned breeding that happened!! There was at least one other that I saw listed on her puppy page. Sounds very irresponsible. But oh my...don't hip and eye evaluations and a $1500 price tag mean they were? Even *if* she were breeding consistantly good Border Collies to the working standard there isn't much excust for the rampant overbreeding shown on her site. So if she isn't breeding quality...and she breeds tons of pups for profit...gee, that does make a very nice title does it.... I made an anology on a similar thread about this being similar to the blind pig and the acorn. The occassional, "oops" results of a good working dog does not a quality breeding program make. 80% of greater of sport is training. Training does not breed on. The other 20% is some structure and drive issues that can be found by selecting from responsibly bred working litters. And if it means so darn much that you are will to shoot $1500 down the the "puppy in a poke" gamble drain, you should not be buying a puppy!! Go get an adult dog from a reputable rescue or breeder that has the qualities you need already present and viewable. You'll waste less money, and you'll have far less stress, and less pups will be bred as others follow in your example. Can't train anything but a puppy to the level you want? That's your fault, and I assure you if you can't trian an average normal young adult BC to do agility, flyball or obedience....you aren't going to have any success with a puppy. Of course if the *puppy* doesn't turn out you can blame the breeder....you can't blame anybody but yourself if you bought/adopted an adult who was "exactly what I want". Rant over...back to the breeder question. Frankly in the face todays overpopulation I think any person with ethics should shun a breeder who puts outs mass numbers of pups. Purchasing from them justifies their actions and says you care more about what you can get than what happens to the breed. lenajo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 I don't live on a farm so I'm not going to be working the dog in that sense. All I'd really want is that classic border collie intelligence. Her dogs do seem versatile in that they can do anything you ask of them (which is how I would define a BC, along with their incredible brain power). I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever heard of her or know her by reputation or anyone else that has versatile BCs. I'm still not ok w/ ear bracing and am still researching breeders. Thank you for all of your replies and opinions. I'm actually surprised I got so many responses. As others have pointed out, BC's versatility came exactly because they were bred for working ability and not looks. Hob Nob is a huge name in performance BC's, especially obedience. I'm used to AKC prices but even I was surprised by $1,500. Still, she has enough dogs doing well in AKC events that people are willing to pay that price apparently. I braced/glued my shelties ears and the only suffering/irritation that I could notice was on my part (gave up early on the first, stuck through for ok results with the second). It was a fun to just let Quinn's ears decide for themselves to become they are --- rather goofy but very expressive. No one here will give you flack for not working your dog on livestock... but don't be surprised if some day you find yourself driving your dog a goodly distance to learn how to work sheep. Border Collies have a way of leading you down roads you never meant to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriciaJane Posted February 5, 2016 Report Share Posted February 5, 2016 Never did that to Max and would not want to. His ears tell me what he is feeling. They are never the same and he will be two. I am thinking everyone will be pleased to know he is neutered by what I read hear. Max is a disc dog and a trick dog and hikes with me he keeps me alive and wanting to live. Not all Border collie are just for farm work although I feel he would be very good at herding and we may try to get into that soon. I feel it was up to me to say no to messing with his ears and it was to be what it is he uses his ears to tell me what he is feeling. I know some will think I am silly when I say this but I say come and see for yourself One up one down means he is trying real hard to get it right both down means he is relaxed or very comfortable both up means he is ready like let's get tossing the disc so I can do my thing. When we drive he keeps them both up even while in his crate. Max's ears are part of who he is and I wouldn't of changed a thing about his ears doing what they want. He does not want to be a show dog he is too busy with life right now. I think it must be very hard to show dogs and know its not the life for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 6, 2016 Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 Interesting reading through this very old thread and noting that we are still making the same arguments nearly a decade later (and for many years before this thread was started too)... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted February 6, 2016 Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 No....I take back what I previously said about a kennel. Thankfully she's gone to the other side and doesn't register ABCA from what I understand or she'd be on *The List* as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Interesting reading through this very old thread and noting that we are still making the same arguments nearly a decade later (and for many years before this thread was started too)... J. And why poor newcomers to the board get jumped on, it is Groundhog Day round here and it will never end, all we can hope is that like the OP on this post that newcomers understand why everyone gets so passionate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I've never understood the desire for fake cookie cutter ears on any breed. There is so much expression through ears, regardless of their natural set, why would you want to alter that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Zombie thread! I find set ears to be absolutely repulsive. Or at least, the fake tipped ears of show BC's, shelties, collies, etc. You can spot them from a mile away. Ears taped straight up for a prick ear? I still think it's stupid and I'd never, ever do it, but at least that look isn't so blatantly fake. I hope someone finds this thread another decade from now to get a laugh at the ever-persistent discussions in the BC world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I have two airplane-eared dogs in my formerly all-prick-eared pack. I admit that I will always prefer prick eared, but honestly I can't imagine going to the trouble of changing something so arbitrarily because of what *I* like with respect to looks. There's so much more to my dogs than their appearance. Kingfisher, I love naturally tipped ears too (I had hoped my airplane eared male would get his mother's high tipped ears), but the fake ones are obviously fake and I have never understood the appeal. As I've said in the past, the stated mission of the KC types is to choose breeding stock that can produce offspring that match the desired traits. What does it say about one's ideals and the real value placed on them when you then proceed to choose a trait that can't easily be reproduced through genetics and then go ahead and create it artificially? Boggles the mind.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 ... honestly I can't imagine going to the trouble of changing something so arbitrarily because of what *I* like with respect to looks. There's so much more to my dogs than their appearance. So very true. Back in the late '80s, the breeder around whom this thread began because of her ear taping wanted to bred to my merle male because she was already looking to breed for colors. There were few merles to choose from at the time and after figuring out what her priorities were I declined. (At the time she was doing only obedience, but that was prior to other dog sports having taken off.) The decision was mutual, though. She didn't want to use him because he had some ticking in his white. She only liked dogs with white markings free of any ticking. I see from her current website that her dogs still have few, if any, freckles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Ear bracing is very important and necessary, otherwise you end up with ears like this. Look at him, he's positively hideous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Awww. He's adorable. And his ears are perfect! If you don't like 'em, you can send him, hideous ears and all, to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I agree about tipping ears (ear bracing), cropped ears, docking tails and whatever else vanity leads humans to do to dogs. It gives me the willies when I see a young puppy at an agility trial (owner is running an older dog, but also has young dog/puppy along for socialization, etc.) I just keep my lips zipped, and sometimes have to leave the area (where everyone is fawning over the 'corrected' puppy) so I don't stick my foot in my mouth. Having said that, I have noticed in the recent years, that there is quite the growing movement in the agility circles to NOT make the aesthetic 'improvements' of earlier years. I have friends who went looking for an English springer spaniel from a breeder who does not dock tails, and a Rottweiler breeder of the same ilk, and the Doberman who also has a tail and non-cropped ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemsMom Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ear bracing is very important and necessary, otherwise you end up with ears like this. Look at him, he's positively hideous. So handsome! He would fit right in with my two girls. Having said that, I have noticed in the recent years, that there is quite the growing movement in the agility circles to NOT make the aesthetic 'improvements' of earlier years. I have friends who went looking for an English springer spaniel from a breeder who does not dock tails, and a Rottweiler breeder of the same ilk, and the Doberman who also has a tail and non-cropped ears. My daughter told me she would love to have an Australian Shepherd. I have no problem getting a rescue with a docked tail but I will not get a puppy from a breeder with a docked tail. I really wish the United States would follow England and stop chopping off tails and cutting ears. I feel if God/evolution (depending on your beliefs) gave animals certain tails and ears that we humans shouldn't mess with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Did I hear someone say "derpy ears?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I was just looking at photos yesterday laughing at how my dogs ears could not make their mind up, thought they were going to be tipped but ended up proud and pointy. An agility student of mine just got her first border collie and was asking about ear setting, she is Swedish and a bit of a snob and always had "well" bred KC dogs. My response was that border collies express their character through their ears, and pointed at one who has the most glorious airplane ears and asked if he would be the same if he had tipped ears, and that really got her thinking as she looked around at the motly collection of ears, and I also told her it was part of the fun watching them decide how to carry their ears. Don't think we are going to see weights on Daisys ears!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 So handsome! He would fit right in with my two girls. zzzz.JPG zzzz (2).JPG They're adorable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Did someone say odd ears? I wanted full prick. NOPE. I'm okay with that. I can't imagine her with any other ears, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 May we join the ridiculous ear set club? What am I supposed to do with these floppy things. On top of being unsightly, I'm pretty sure they are impairing her hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Texi's are my fave...love the one not quite uppy ear. The more tired he is, the more it flops over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I think Tex is Torque's brother from another mother. [grin] He also has one tipped ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Huh. I don't know how that pic^^^ became attached to the previous post. I had chosen another one. Let me try again. If it doesn't work this time, I give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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