RMSBORDERCOLLIES

This has nothing to do with breed of dog at all and everything to do with "possession". The female dog was very put off because you stopped playing with her and petted your little male dog. Of course, she didn't blame you; she blamed the other dog and tried to get him out of the way of interfering with yours and her playtime. This can be a problem with an alpha bitch who likes to be in control so you need to be aware of the social conditions laid down by the alpha bitch to the little male. #1. They will probably get along just fine when you are not around. #2. Keep the bitch in control when you are out with both of them and let her know that you make the rules, not her. Be very aware of any posturing for attack on the part of the bitch when you are out with both of them and nip it in the bud before anything gets started. I will tell you now that you will need very assertive control with the bitch to keep her under control. #3. It will take quite a while to get these two dogs accustomed to accepting each other but it will happen if you are determined enough. Don't be nattering at her all the time though as this will just keep the tension up, just be very aware and keep a close eye on things when you are out with and nip it in the bud before it gets started. Bob

I see you are from Alberta and you will be missing a great opportunity by not joining the ASDA(Alberta Stopck Dog Association). Alberta has some of the top trainers and handlers in not only Canada but the U.S. also and I'm sure one of them is within driving distance for you. Their web site is www.albertastockdog.com and the president is Ken Price so get in contact with them and I'm sure you will be well received and get lots of info. Your pup is a little on the young side for any serious training as yet and I have found that formal obedience training under KC rules can be detrimental to stock dogs as it tends to tightern them up a little too much. On the other hand there is certainly nothing wrong with teaching the pup to be obedient and to have manners, lie down, stay, here, that'll do etc. They can learn all this stuff before starting on sheep or cattle. It would appear that you have a stock persons' background so half the job is already completed. Working sheep will be different than working cattle but you will catch on quickly once you understand the animal. Starting dogs on cattle is ok but I prefer to start them on sheep as they can move quicker and the dogs learn to balance much faster on them than they do cattle. It's easy enough to switch over the when the dog is started if you want to work both or just cattle. No problem going to any trainer you choose but be sure that you have done your homework as far as the trainer's qualifications are concerned. You will be able to get lots of advice through the ASDA on that, I'm sure. Welcome to "our world" and we all hope you will have as much fun as we do......Bob Stephens

Ok, I take it you are standing at the north end of the field and the run in shed is to your left on the east side of the field. She is handling the cross drive west quite nicely because there is no draw and the sheep are actually going straight on their own. No reason for them to go any other way unless she makes them. Coming back to the east side is a LOT different. There is a draw to the shed and they consider themselves safe in there so that is where they want to go. You will always have to use inside flanks in this situation as you want the dog to push them straight across the field. The dog will not know this unless you tell her. This is very good practice and you will be teaching her to hold line at the same time. Get her where you need her to be to hold the line and then give her a "walk up". You want her to stay out on the pressure and just keep to the sheep where she needs to be to keep them going straight across the field. If she goes to go back in behind the sheep instead of out on pressure, flank her back to pressure and tell her walk up until she gets it that she is supposed to stay out there on the pressure and keep the sheep moving straight across the field. The reason she is straightening things out on her own when she is further away from you is because the draw to the shed is not as great as when she is close to you and the sheep don't need quite as much pressure on them to go straight. Don't just drive across the field; drive the full length and corner to corner and wherever you can get different pressures so she gets to read them all. Don't always drive in a straight line either, mix it up, curves, angles etc. so she knows how to do everything including taking her commands right all the time. Giving commands to the dog is not being naggy as you put it. Giving unnecessary commands is naggy. You weren't doing this. You were giving necessary commands and that is good. Your expectation should be that you will leave the dog to do what is the right thing to do but if she doesn't do it right you need to intervene. That is training. Dogs do not understand what a line is until they are taught what a line is. Some are real "line dogs" who catch on quickly and are inclined to drive or fetch in straight lines than some others, but all of them can be taught over a period of time with good methods to drive and fetch straight holding pressure all the time. When your girl is well trained you will have the confidence in her that you can put her anywhere you want if you need to but she will also have the confidence in you that she will work on her own and be right most of the time. This is the relationship you are looking for and you will be a very happy camper when you reach it. Keep up the good work....Bob

Hi there. Your problem with this dog is you don't have control of him. So the fix for this is to get control of him without taking his natural talent away. This must be done at a distance that you can control him and then move him out as he b ecomes more tractable. Your goal is to have a dog that you can put any place you want him to be so that you can get your work done in an efficient manner without harrassing the stock. The first thing that you must learn to control is the stop on the dog. If you can't stop the dog he will always be in the wrong place and work will not be enjoyable for you. So, you need to get out and pratice with this dog, stopping him on command on the fetch and while flanking and driving. Stop means stop right there and not 3 or 5 more steps. If the dog is fetching sheep to you use whatever command you use to stop your dog and run at thim with your hands up in the air telling him the command. Run right through the sheep if you need to. If he stops right away when you give the command then move him out a little further and go again until you can stop him anywhere even at 500 yards. Some dogs prefer to work on their feet and some will fight you when trying to get them to lie down. If they are the type that are uncomfortable while in the down position, and are not just fighting being told what to do, I wouldn't get too concerned about them lying down. It will come eventually. But they must stop when told. The gripping is not a big problem but you must deal with it when necessary. Usually if you learn to keep your dog back off the sheep where he can't grip this takes care of it, but YOU must decide where the dog should be in the initial stages. This is teaching the dog pace and to read his stock instead of him just going in and busting them because he knows that will move them. You have to be the boss and in control of the dog. The dog may have beeen considered trained when you got him but you need to be trained also and you need to bond and get to know your dog before you can become proficient as a handler. I also doubt if a yearling could be considered trained but could definitely be considered well started. In order for you to become proficient as a handler you and the dog need to practice and, if I understand correctly, you are in a position to do that pretty well every day. Is that right? This is going to take a while so get back to me with further questions as you spend time training the dog and yourself and we'll carry on from there. Good luck......Bob

Hi Suzanne. Yes, good seeing you at the finals too. You have a dog there that is going to be a good one but you need to have a little more control of her. Notice I didn't say "on her" but "of her". Thisw means that you must be able to flank her right around in front of the sheep on the fetch and drive them back where they came from. You will know that you have control of her when you can do that. This is not the development of eye but a desire to control which is really good. The problem that occurs with these type of dogs is that they don't want to let go of control and therefore you must break that focus and make them do as they are told. On tough sheep (wild or unbroke)she wioll not want to let go because a) she doesn't know what they will do if she does let go of the pressure and b)she thinks she knows better than you what to do with them. A very good exercise to accomplish the dog accepting being taken off pressure and giving up control is to send her on a gather and, when she is part way on her fetch, givce her a great big flank to get her around in front of the sheep and push them back to where you picked them up on the lift. If she doesn't take the flank when given, get going up the field until you are close enough that she will obey you and make her take the flank and push them back. Do this a few times during your practices but don't do it excessively as you don't want her anticipating that you are going to give her a flank all the time. You want to leave that nice, natural, gather in her but know that you can move her any way you want to at the same time. Don't set anything up, just surprise her all the time with this command. She must be listening all the time. If she is really focused on holding the pressure, try calling her name before you give the command. This will usually get her attention and get her focused on you and then go on from there. She will be a good one once you have hold of her. .....Bob

Sorry I am so late answering this question but I had lots to do upon returning from the finals. Sound sensitivity is a very complicated, usually genetic, disorder and quite difficult to deal with at times. Before I go any further though I would like to offer a suggestion that your dog not chase her sheep but herd them. Now that that's out of the way, we'll deal with sound sensitivity. The best way that I have found to deal with it is to find a way or action that the dog will do that will calm her during the noise that is bothering her. With my old dog who was quite sensitive to thunder, I used to work him during every thunderstorm we had and, over the years, he became very accepting of it but it did take quite a long time but was worth it. You need to be calm yourself around the dog and offer support in the way of soothing her and calming her during the noise. Once you get her working well and with condfidence you can take her out during the gun shots and work her calmly on sheep that she enjoys. It will take time and I know of no way that you can do it quickly so just find something she enjoys doing and do it while the gunshots are happending. WARNING!! Noise sensitive dogs can freak out during thunder storms and the like and just start running with no goal or direction in mind and, quite often, get into disastrous situations like being hit on the highway etc. So when the noises occur, if you can't take them out and work them, I would suggest confining them where they cannot escape for the duration of the noise, whatever it may be...........Bob

Hi there. Don't stop using your stick. It is a great tool and you don't want to be without it. Just learn to use it properly. Just keep telling yourself it is just an extension of my arm, that's all. It's not a weapon or a magic wand (although at times it can be a magic wand, used properly). Especially at the pen it gives you the ability to cover a much greater area and that is necessary to convince the sheep they have no other place to go but in the pen. The rope, you and your stick can cover about13 feet of the pen gate opening and the dog can cover the rest so, as you can see, without the stick you are not as much help to the dog as you could be. Try it, you'll like it. You'll get used to doing it right. Good luck....Bob

Good article Deb. Learn to "read" your dog. It's a two way communication out there...Bob

Hi Autumn. Norm and Vickie Close are only a few minutes from you and he is a good trainer as well as being the 2005 Canadian Champion. His outfit is Handhills Border Collies and he is in Couer d'Alene only a few minutes from Moscow. His number is on his website which I don't have right now at hand but give him a call. He will probably be leaving for the Nationals quite soon so call right away. Best to get started right than just take whatever and I would recommend you steer clear of those other folks and get a proper start. Call Norm. That's the way to go.......Bob Stephens

Yes Nancy. That BIG STICK has created more problems for more people than I could count. It is a tool to extend the arm which gives you more of an area you are able to cover to help your dog. It's not a shotgun to blast off with at any time. Good luck and probably see you down east some time again.......Bob

Hi there. You got spoiled the first day and then you got REAL SHEEP the next day which is good 'cause you don't learn anything by being spoiled. Penning is an exercise in patience and knowledge of sheep. With the type of sheep you had and apparently the amount of time left you had, it would have been possible to take your time, position your dog properly, let him hold the pressure softly but firmly with you manipulating the sheep to get all their heads facing into the opening of the gate and then softly but firmly with the dog controlling the flight path shuffle them into the pen. With these kind of sheep, quiet control is what you want to use. You don't want your dog moving too fast with lightning speed unless he has to cover a break away. Nice smooth flanking by the dog is what you want, even to the point of the dog just leaning as much as necessary. You help by covering the escape path with the rope shaking it ever so softly and making yourself as big as possible, rope in one hand, stick in the other and very confident, not aggressive. It is an exercise in exruciatingly soft but firm movements, not scaring the sheep, but convincing them to turn and walk into a scary place. This means that you and the dog must be able to convince them that there is no other place to go than in and that all the places they are thinking about going are covered by either you or the dog. By using your crook or stick softly in the face of a sheep that is facing out of the pen opening you can usually convince that sheep to turn into the opening but be soft, just a little short wave is all you want. You don't want to scare her, you just want to make it uncomfortable enough for her to turn in. Now then, that is all for those kind of sheep but not for all. There are those out there which are not afraid of humans at all and then you may have to use different methods with a lot of help from you and the dog using a little more push to be more convincing. We'll deal with that one later when it comes up. The type of sheep you had reacted very similarly to the way unbroke range sheep will act at the pen and you better use lots of patience with them. .......good luck......Bob

Nick, one thing I always do when travelling to trials is to be sure I have my own water for the dogs. I travel with 11 dogs and pack at least 25 gallons when going to the Nationals. It avoids any problems associated with changes in water and they are many. If I do have to change I make sure that it is done gradually by mixing early when I see I'm going to run out. Like Geri and Amy say, I don't think there will be any problem with you being able to eat or drink. I've always found the Klamath Nationals to be very well supplied with vendors and concessions.......Bob

Hi Dave. Wish we were there. Nancy wasn't well enough to travel for two days and we didn't want to jeopardise our trip to the Nationals so we cancelled out this year. First time we missed Meeker since we started going quite a while ago. Looks like the sheep are tough again and Tommy and Bill and a few others are still in their normal places. We are following the scores on the web site and they have been very good at posting them. Ellen Nieslanick is such a great organizer and keeps everything so efficient. Say hi to her for us and, hopefully, will see you at the Nationals in a couple of weeks or less. Bob

There is nothing like going to a big, challenging trial and watching the Open Hands run their dogs and get into your own brain and try to figure out what it is they are doing to be able to accomplish what they do on the trial field. Works the same at home too. Watch your dog and try to "read" him and understand what it is he is telling you as he does his thing. The communication between dog and handler is not one way. It is a very important two way conversation and you can't really help him until you learn to speak his language. He talks to you in many ways and most are very subtle but they are there and you need to understand them. I used to, and still do, watch and watch all day long at the Open trials waiting to see how each of the top handlers get around the course and, at times, make it look so easy and after quite a few years I was able to pick out those little intricasies that each of the teams had going and started trying to use some of them myself. I don't want to be a clone of any handler but I would like to be able to use those points that I feel suit my dog and myself to become a better handler and trainer. I feel that I got more out of doing this than I could have going to some clinics and I am not knocking clinics when I say this. At the time that I started in this way of life, I was working long hours and didn't have the time for clinics but I feel that I learned more by having to figure out what the top handlers were doing than if I had been told at a clinic. Bob

You're doing a great job Suzanne. The type of work and training you are doing is very conducive to becoming a good handler and trainer. Real work, like you are able to do, will bring you and your dogs along faster and better than just training all the time, although this is also necessary. You are learning to read stock and your dogs which is a must if you wish to be competitive in today's trial scene which is becoming more competitive every day. Talk later.......Bob

Elizabeth has given you some great advice and I'll just add one more thing. They don't stop listening because they're hot. They stop listening because they are overtrained and mentally fatiqued. It's not the physical part that's fried, it's the brain so like Elizabeth said quit on a good note (nice little gather that's easy for her) and quit when she's still relatively fresh. Keep your expectations reasonable and remember that it's the baby steps each day that count, not the light bulb all of a sudden! Also, remember that your dog has now been started but YOU need to keep on learning so you can help. If Karen is helping, keed in touch and ask the questions of your learned friends if you're running into difficulty. Keep the knowledge base growing. We never stop learning in this way of life and, if we do, we go backwards. I learn something every time I watch a trial or run in one. If I don't, I know I'm missing an opportunity to learn. Bob

We travel with 11 dogs and we always try to park our trailer as far away from the trial site as possible, out of earshot if possible. Some of our dogs have to be kept away from the trial site prior to running other than to just watch the outrun of the team before their run. After watching the outrun they are taken away and walked quietly for the time remaining before their run. It's a good time to get focused on what is about to happen and to quiet your dog with just a good relaxing walk just before the competition. Try and stay as calm as possible at the post as your dog will sense any nervousness you have at that time. Give your command for the outrun quietly so that you don't "spike" the dog into thinking he has to blast off to start his run. It is a great thing to have a keen dog but it must be controlled and keeping him away from the site as much as possible is one of the ways of doing this. Good long runs or walks prior to his run are also essential for both you and the dog. Remember that your dog is reading you much better than you read him in most cases so try to be as calm as possible. Bob

Good old grips eh! Most of my dogs are usually fairly grippy when young and eventually get over it as their confidence grows. I manage the grip by keeping the dogs off and good control. If the dog feels he NEEDS to grip I let him. I do not take the grip out of the dog. I know I will need it at some time down the road. I control it. If a sheep challenges the dog I let him do what he needs to but I control how severe it gets. That requires that the dog listen and do as told. I do not allow cheap shots as they are usually caused by frustration and are not a positive method of control of the sheep. Very seldom will the dog get a chance at a cheap shot if he is worked at the proper distance from the sheep (back of the flight zone). Working goats is almost like working fast cattle and most of the time the grip will be necessary but just be sure that it is a good grip either in the face or the heel. I like my dogs to move their stock without a grip most of the time but times do occur when that little grip may be necessary. Teaching a dog to grip on command is not that hard and there are some out there that have absolutely no grip in them but still are quite strong. Unfortunately, when push comes to shove, there has to be another place for the dog to go when he gets run over a few times and then we must teach that dog to grip. I usually just grab the ewe or ram by the neck and hold and really encourage the dog to come in and move the head low so that he can get at the nose. For those dogs without grip, this will take a while but it will come. For those that try to get to the side or under the head that is the reason to move the head and control the dog so that he is only taking the face. If you are not strong enough to hold the ewe you can either get some help or build a stanchion that you can hold her in and encourage the dog in on her there. I find it's always better to use the ewe that is giving the dog trouble than another that doesn't challenge the dog. BE VERY CAREFUL WHERE YOU HAVE YOUR HANDS WHEN DOING THIS OR YOU MAY BE ON YOUR WAY TO THE HOSPITAL IF THEY ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE!! Take your time and always be very encouraging as you may be asking the dog to feel his fear and do it anyway. Bob

You have a very dangerous situation here and it needs to be dealt with right now. I know this is suposed to be for stock work only but you need to get this in hand now. Feed your dog twice or once a day as you see fit but don't leave the food there any longer than ten minutes. By free feeding you are telling your dog that he is in control of when he eats and, for your dog's health, you need to be in control of that. He will eat eventually. He will not starve himself. Just be sure he has plenty of fresh water while converting him to you controlling his feedings. As far as the nipping/biting is concerned this is not allowed. Again, this is the dog in control and not you. Nipping and biting deserves serious correction. When the dog comes over to be petted, give him a pat and tell him to lie down and stay there. You need to take over as the boss right now. I certainly would not encourage your friends to pet him to acknowledge him until you are positive that he will not bite or nip anymore. Give him some boundaries that he needs to live by and form a routine for him to live in. He needs to have rules and boundaries so that he knows what he is allowed to do and what he is not allowed to do. All dogs need this. Otherwise they wander around confused about their life because they don't know what they can and can't do. These are the kind of dogs that wind up being problems for their owners. It is your home and you are in charge and you lay down the rules. You love him and treat him with kindness but you are in charge. Kindness is letting him know you are in charge and what he can and can't do. He needs this to be a happy dog. This goes for ALL other folks in the family also. It does no good for you to be in charge and everyone else lets him do as he wishes. The dog is part of the family and at the bottom of the pecking order and he needs to know this from EVERYONE! I am not being harsh. I am being realistic. You and the dog will enjoy each other much more when you both know your places. I have experienced this problem quite a few times with a lot of folks in familes that don't set boundaries for their dogs and in at least 50% of the cases, the dog has suffered the brunt of the disaster and been destroyed. So you need to get on this right away and nip it in the bud. If you don't it will get harder to deal with as time goes by. Good luck.....Bob

Hi there. Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner but things get a little hectic at this time of the year, especially when trying to get ready for both Nationals. I kind of get a picture of what is happening here and most of it can be remedied over time with you relaxing and having some fun with your dog. This does not mean to stop training or letting the dog do as he pleases. It means setting baby step goals for you and your dog so that your expectations don't leave you and your dog in failure mode all the time. When you go to your trainers, ask for some homework that you can do off sheep as I understand that you don't have sheep to work with. Another suggestion is to find someone in your locale that has sheep that would let you use them to train your dog. This may be a little tough depending on where you are but it would certainly relieve some of the stress from both of you to be able to work more often. Folks in your situation tend to put a lot of pressure on themselves and their dogs unknowingly due to the fact that you feel the need to accomplish a lot when at the trainers as it is a long drive, there's not much time, you're trying to soak as much into your brain as you can because it's a long time before you can get back, and a whole bunch of other factors that create a lot of stress on you both. Learning to run a stockdog and training the dog at the same time is a time consuming experience. You only get out what you can put in in the form of time and energy and knowledge. You are at a bit of a limitation in that you can't put in a lot of time on sheep so it will take you much longer to reap the rewards of training. So, set some realistic goals for yourself and your dog. 1) Ensure that your dog is under control and that you can stop him. This is something that is very necessary when working stock to protect the sheep and also to be able to put your dog in the right place. Once you have control of the dog, some of the stress will be alleviated. 2) Try and understand how sheep react to you and the dog. When at your trainers spend some time trying to work the sheep by yourself to learn to read them. If you don't read what the sheep are doing, it is pretty well impossible to help the dog when he needs it. 3) Work in a progression of phases of work with your dog. The progression should go something like this: 1) control which means a good stop and a good recall so that you can call the dog off the sheep when needed and stop the dog in case things start getting out of hand. 2) Balance: I usually start a young dog doing short outruns. I don't circle the dog. A short ountrun takes the form of a gather. Get between the sheep and the dog. Move yourself from one side or the other so that you force the dog to go one way or the other. Ssshh the dog to get him around the sheep. When he gets to the sheep start backing up so he can bring them to you. You can move one way or the other to ensure the dog is balancing and do lots of walking backwards. Use your "stop" command, whatever it is, to control the pace of the sheep while doing this. As the dog gets more proficient move your gathers out a little further until proficient and on and on. When you see that you and the dog are comfortable with this then you can start working on flanks and driving. Try and keep everything as quiet as possible and don't worry about making mistakes. We are human and we all make mistakes. You won't ruin your dog provided you recognize the mistakes and don't keep making the same ones. Ask questions of your trainer if you don't understand something so that you do understand it. Watch videos, read books and, above all, get to some trials and watch the Open folks running and try and figure out what it is they do that makes things look so easy. Ask them questions also. Most of the Open folks are quite happy to see interested new handlers and will share some of their knowledge with you. You are building a team and the more information you have the better the team that you build. Be patient. It's a long road, especially in your situation. Enjoy what you can and build on that. Feel free to ask for more info any time as we have just got you started in solving your stress problems. Try this for a while and see if you can find some sheep to work when not at the trainers. Make sure your dog is under control so you don't harm someone's sheep that is kind enough to let you work them. Find someone else in your area that likes to do the same thing or already does and try to work with them if possible. Gtet back to me and let me know how you are doing and we'll continue on from there. Bob

Your 3G will work at Bar Pipe Kristi...Bob PS - Looks like it is going to be the biggest ever.....72 Open dogs running and 27 Nursery...Can't wait to get there....

Hi again. The pen is an exercise in quiet control. Most of the time I like to see the dog on it's feet at the pen but there are times when it would be better on the ground depending on the nature of the dog and the sheep. If you can get to some nice quiet sheep that are used to penning this would be a good thing right now. This would teach your dog that she doesn't have to put all that pressure on the sheep when she is at the pen. Now, remember, that she can read your feelings at the pen also and, if your are nervous or aggressive at the pen she probably will be too. What the pen should look like is a very confident feather pushing the sheep in. So to get there, you need to teach yourself and your dog PATIENCE, and CONTROL. Harsh movements will only upset unbroke sheep so you need to keep your movements and the dog's movements quiet. To accomplish this you need to have your dog under very good control using a nice soft voice to ensure that she doesn't get the idea that she has to blast them. You should be aiming the sheep into the pen at about a 45 degree angle with the hinge corner of the gate your point of aim. This will push the sheep into the gate so that they have to turn into the pen. When you have them into the gate opening this is the time that you should start to inch your way around the opening with your crook held out around the sheep to block that side. This forms a kind of wall around them with the dog controlling the only opening left that isn't covered. This is where you must make the dog listen and just take the steps that are required to keep that nice steady pressure to convince them to go in. You should also be helping by just moving your crook ever so slightly to let them know that they're covered. NO FAST MOVEMENTS AT ALL!!! When you ask the dog to "walk up", you need to tell her to "stay there" right away the second that you you see the sheep reacting to the dog's presence. If there is too much pressure, the sheep will squirt, if not enough they may challenge the dog and you and leave, so it's just like a game of bridge and you need to use a lot of FINESSE. Once your dog has worked the broke sheep for a while try and move up to a tlittle tougher sheep and progress from there. Another thing while I think of it. Let your dog cover the sheep at the pen as naturally as possible. You only need to get into the picture when things aren't going right. A dog that reads her sheep is very valuable when penning as she will cover on her own when she sees they are trying to get out. Once you ahve been penning for a while she will recognize what it is you want and become natural with it. We don't do penning practice at home as our dogs are pushing sheep in and out of pens all day long so they don't really need it. But, under your circumstances, it is necessary to practice penning. Have fun and hope to see you at the finals.......Bob

Hi Bill. I don't know how long you've had the dog but in my opinion I would make sure that you two are bonded well before going into any serious degree of training. The bonding will probably take longer than the training but is just as important as the training. If he is well bonded to you and you have that good tight relationship now then go ahead and start getting his voice commands on him. I'm not sure that I would go to the extent of just training one side at a time. It just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do in my mind. I am not a driller and don't believe in it at all and this kind of smacks of drilling in a way. Not to question the validity of either Julie's or Bruce's books as they are very learned and accomplished handlers and trainers. I am not that familiar with Bruce's book but I have read Julie's and found it very interesting and informative. I have also talked to her about some of her training methods and found her to be very knowledgeable. I would concentrate on flanks and stops to be sure when first starting the dog under your tutelage. Your dog will learn his flanks by association very quickly if I am reading your info right. He has been handled on pressure only in the past and doesn't know his flank commands? He only knows to go one way or the other by body pressure. If that is the case then putting a flank command to this will work well and once you see that he is starting to catch on then you can start putting some very light off balance flanks on him. I find that there is a lot of mental stress on the dog in the beginning if he has been carried on too long with just body pressure as he only knows to move from that type of information so you need to be patient when putting the voice flanking commands on him and not use too harsh a correction when he doesn't go the right way. After you are SURE that he knows his commands quite well then you can put a little more pressure on him to do it right. I like your idea of mixing up your training because that is what keeps the dog sane and us too. If it's interesting to him he will learn faster. They are all different but if he is a son of Boone I would think that he would be a pretty good listener and like to do things right. I have found that lots of corner work or work on the fence puts pretty good nice quiet flanks on a dog as they have to learn to go quietly behind the sheep to bring them out and it also teaches the dog to cover as well. Some dogs will fight you here and sometimes not want to go behind the sheep and just hold them on the fence but, if you are determined enough, you can get him to go nice and quietly behind and pull them off the fence. I would also work a lot on stretching out his outrun and tuning that up as good as you can. After all the gather is half the points in a trial and a given if you have the dog trained well to bring them to you. You can also start to drive a little on the fence just pulling the dog to you by calling his name and then"here" which will eventually work into a flank command in a little while. I always start the dogs driving on the fence as they really learn to hold a line and also you only have to cover one side while starting the dog driving and you aren't bouncing around all over the place trying to call him from both sides. A little bit of everything is just a good way to go. I don't think that I have told you anything that you didn't already know Bill as you are a pretty accomplished handler and you have brought both your dogs along very well from what I have seen but another viewpoint is always helpful when building your dog into that champion you want to see down the road. Have fun and, hopefully, if Nancy gets well, we'll see you at the finals........Bob

You're very welcome and I'm glad I could help. You are very lucky to have a dog like that; fast and reactive is good. I love those little fast dogs. You can put them anywhere in a flash and the stock always know they can't get away....Good luck with her.......Bob

Hi there. I've got a few minutes before I go to pasture sheep so I will try to answer your questions. First of all, you did see the dog coming in behind on an Alisdair shedding video made in CA just a few years ago. It is one of the better videos available on shedding and I highly recommend it to anyone. It was filmed at a clinic Geri Byrne hosted and it is actual film of the clinic, not a set up for the video. You need to remember though, that Alisdair made it very clear that it was a method of training he used to step into the hole and call the dog behind him. This was done for training purposes only and you don't step into the hole in a trial. One of the purposes for getting the dog to come behind was to be able to get the dog going faster coming in by flanking with a lot of encouragement if you had a dog that was a bit slow coming in. It works great for increasing the speed of the dog on the "here". For your bitch that is stalling when turned onto the sheep, she is probably thinking that she is done with her work when she comes in. You need to make the exerecise of shedding a two fold job of the bitch coming through and then taking the sheep for a long walk afterwards and making her stay on the shed off sheep. You could even do some penning afterwards if you like so that she gets the idea that her job isn't over just because she has come through. Don't have her fetch the sheep to you by walking to the shed off sheep. This will not teach her to walk in on the sheep. You need to use lots of encouragement here even to the point of getting her to grip the sheep to make them move. No anger, or force, just encouragement. Keep it fun. There is a lot of mental stress involved in shedding and you want your dog shedding because they love it, not just because they have to. Sometimes going back to the basics and using lots of sheep to start with, creating a big hole (15 or 20 feet) and getting the dog to push lots of sheep away takes some of the pressure off the dog and gets things going again. It could also be because of using this method that the dog is feeling that she doesn't need to do anything more once she's behind you because you are closer to the sheep than she is. Remember that I said that the idea of coming behind with you in the hole is for training only to get speed coming in so you need to start working further away from the sheep when calling the dog in so that you are not there in the hole when she gets there. She must understand that she is the one doing the shedding, not you. So keep back from your sheep and manuever yourself and the dog to get the split and then call her in and turn her on the sheep using the same hand that you showed her where to come in. In other words, if you are shedding the sheep on your left, you will use your right hand for the dog to aim at and then turn your right hand towards the sheep you are shedding off or holding and tell her to "walk up". All in one motion, no stops. Keep things moving so the dog never loses her control on the sheep. Your older dog is not that much oif a problem. This is simply doing a little more shedding practice with you showing the dog the sheep with your hand movement as I stated with your bitch above. Make sure that you always show him which sheep you want him to take in practice and that he does what you want. You need to be facing those sheep that you want shed off and pointing with your hand to those sheep and giving a "this one" or whatever command you use to show him which sheep you want. Regarding your pup and whether to come in behind or in front here is my answer to those questions. Remember again that coming in behind is strictly for training to get speed and that will work well with this pup to get some speed. Use lots of sheep and make big holes when training this pup and lots of encouragement all the time. Don't forget what I said about mental stress. Got to keep it light and not too long and enjoyable so that he gets to love it. When you have the speed then you have to stop with this training method and get to bringing the dog in on the heads of the sheep you want to shed off. Shedding is not behind or in front. It is the dog coming on the sheep you have shown him and taking control and pushing them away. Remeber, you are not supposed to be in the hole so if you are back from your sheep where you belong and your dog comes in behind you, he will not be in a position to take control. Your dog should always be positioned so that she comes onto the heads of the sheep you want off. That means that there has to be a bit of an angle onto the heads of the sheep before the dog starts to come in. If too far ahead of the sheep she will stop them all. If too far back she will not be able to stop the ones you want. You need to read your sheep and see which ones move off the easiest and arrange them so you can take the back ones. If a marked shed then you need to arrange them to take the two unmarked or the one marked depending if it's a shed or a single. When the dog and you are in the right position he will have stoped the back two sheep and let the front three go. The hole will appear and you call him in at that moment and it is a short moment so timing is of the essence and the dog must come in right away the second that he is told. It is at this moment as he arrives in front of the sheep that you indicate which ones you want but if you started at the right angle with the dog, he will already know which ones because he is already coming in on their heads. Hope this is clear enough. It's a little easier to show someone than it is to explain in writing but I think we can get it done here........Good luck and have fun.......Bob