RMSBORDERCOLLIES

My sentiments exactly Denise. Thanks for your great posts......Bob

Yep, I'm here and I imagine a few more are also. Let's make this a little simpler for you Deb. Forget about default and program and resistance and anticiaption and all that stuff and let's look at what makes a border collie. The good ones come to you with the desire to work stock inherently built in. They want to fetch sheep to you. They also, most times, want to fetch ALL the sheep to you. As a trainer it is your job to get to know your dog as well as humanly possible and also to let your dog know what your expectations of him/her are. The KISS method works really well for me as I am a slow learner at times and I like to keep it simple. The simplicity of what we love to do is just this. We want to nourish and improve on what we started with which means that we have a goal of having a dog that will #1 and I emphasize this strongly; The dog must do as he is told by the handler ALL THE TIME!!! #2. We must leave the dog to do what he is bred to do except when he needs help or direction. #3. Don't confuse obedience and being a good listener for mechanical. I tell most or all of my students to be in control but not controlling. #4. Train your dog to work, not to trial. #5. Challenge your dog at all times and keep your training periods interesting to both you and the dog. In other words, mix it up. #6. Praise your dog for work well done in WHATEVER FORM WORKS FOR HIM/HER! I say this because there are so many different types of dogs out there that react well to many different forms of praise that you need to figure out what form of praise you use. #7. Learn to read sheep so you can help the dog when he needs it and not get in his way when he doesn't need it. #8. Your goal should be to have a dog is able to take a command at any place at any time and you need to know that you have the confidence in your dog to do that. That is what you need to aim for. Now to get to some of Deb's specific questions: (if we program a default of keep them together will the dog resist moving them apart? ) Not if he is trained to do as he is told and he is trained to understand what a shed or split or single is. Of course when you start training to shed he is going to resist coming through especially if he is a strong eyed dog but we won't get into that here right now. (If the dog has a default of fetching us the stock will he keep anticipating it making us constantly managing the default through commands. Or do we want the dog to be open to which ever command and freely move from keeping them together to releasing them.) I will quote you one this one: "we want the dog to be open to which ever command and freely move from keeping them together to releasing them." In other words, DO AS HE'S TOLD! (Just thinking that a default of bringing me the stock could cost me later on, what happens if the dog didn't understand what you wanted, would he bring you the stock, or would you rather he stopped and go into neutral staying engaged to the sheep?) If the dog didn't understand what you wanted, he is not trained yet and you need to carry on further with his training. Don't want a dog going into neutral at any time for sure. You need to remember when you go to the post with your dog, you are in charge. If you have done your homework before hand and brought the dog to the stage in training required for the class in which you run then you will go to the post with as much self confidence as possible, both in yourself and the dog. There's an old saying - "smell the roses" which in dog trainers' language means enjoy your training sessions and your dog and don't put any more pressure on either one of you than you can handle. Hope I have anwered some of your questions Deb and remember; I don't have defaults on my dogs. They are all very flexible, not perfect, just flexible. They know what gathering is but they will push back the other way if I want them to. And they'll do a lot of other things if I want them to. That is what a trained dog is. Good luck......Bob

The "look back" is something I start trtaining into a dog right from the get go. If the young pup happens to leave a sheep behind when he does a gather he gets a "look" which means "you left something behind, you must bring them all". He gets trained in this manner right from the start. Then when we want him to go back for more sheep he understands what it is all about right from the get go. When you give the turn back or look back command (whistle or voice) make sure that you wait after the look back until the dog is looking in the direction of the sheep you want to gather before you give him the flank. That way he will get the picture right away and not be looking at going for the original group. Mind you, by this time he already knows that there are other sheep that he must gather out there and when you wait for him to look in the proper direction he will pick it up really quick. Make sure you make it easy from the start with the sheep in plain view and then gradually work the sheep farther away until they are out of sight. You must remember also that the double lift for the National and Internaltional are supposed to be blind gathers on both sets so your dog must know how to gather without being able to see the sheep. When you start training for the double gather make sure you set your two packets of sheep fairly wide apart (100 yards apart if you are doing 50 yard gathers to start with). You want the sheep to be in plain view for the dog when you turn him back to them from either 2 o'clock or 10 o'clock depending on which side you send for the second gather. As soon as the dog spots the sheep after being given the flan and then the look back, give him the next flank right away and watch him go out for the second group. You may have to do it a couple of times at the start but it will come if your timing is right. DO NOT GIVE THE FLANK UNTIL THE DOG SEES THE SHEEP!!! I can't emphasize this too much. After he gets the idea at this short distance it is just a matter of moving the sheep out farther and farther as he progresses. HINT - Don't drill on this!! Mix up your training sessions with other stuff so the dog doesn't think that that's all there is to do. I have seen dogs who have been trained very diligently in turn backs get to the double lift and all of a sudden every time the handler gave a stop the dog turned back (different method of doing the turn back) or, if the dog had been flanked on the same side too much, he would just go that way when given the turn back. You should be doing the turn back from any place at any time during a training session. Keep it challenging and keep it interesting for the dog. He/she will be a much happier and useful dog. Hope this helps and always remember, there is always more than one way of doing anything. Whatever works best for you is the right way......Bob

The cross over line for the second gather is, as quoted by Pearse, from the center of the back of the first group to the center of the front of the second group which means that, if the first group is dropped at the peg(20 yards in front of the fetch panel) the line for the cross over is lower than the actual second fetch line. Now to get back to the turn back for the second group of sheep, the purpose of flanking the dog before the turn back is to get him, not just to the proper side to send him on the second gather but to get him going in the proper direction to give him the turn back and flank which, in my opinion, is properly executed in a flowing motion without a stop. To make it simple, if the second gather is to your right, when the first set of sheep reach the drop post, you would flank your dog on a come bye to approximately 2 o'clock, give him the turn back, and then an away to me flank pretty well all in one flowing set of whistles or commands. There is no point loss for stopping the dog for the turn back and if you find it easier or better for you to do it that way fine, but, to me, there is nothing in our world more aesthetically pleasing that watching a dog take that turn back in one fluid motion and then on out to his sheep on that big sweeping gather. Training the dog to do this is not hard, contrary to popular belief, but it is well worth it in the long run to spend the time teaching him/her to do it.........Bob

Yep, and I would think you would with your type of dog and what you use them for. I know Bobby D quite well and he insists on a stop on the dog before he will take it any further. It is out of respect for the sheep and the handler/trainer so that the dog has the idea that he is working for someone else and not just himself. There are plenty of dogs out there who may not need a stop and are quite willing with just body pressure and movement to either flank off or stop the first time out. I have trained dogs like this and it makes my job very easy. I have also trained the other side of the coin without a stop and I won't be doing that any more. I'm too old and I go to the field to train a dog, not do a marathon. The first three weeks with a young dog is tough enough without fighting him all the time to stop. I find that a young dog will come to you much more readily from the stop than when he is flying around the sheep at 90 mph. I do not use a round pen but I do start in a 1/2 acre field with good fence. Gives the dog plenty of room to get where he feels he needs to be but still has some boundaries. So, really, in my opinion, it really depends on the type of dog you start as to how much control you want on him initially. I do not do any formal obedience on my pups as they grow up but they do get taught good manners and a stop and recall before they go to sheep. That's my way and I'm sure that there are lots of folks out there who have their way and it works quite well for them. It's like building a house. There's more than one way and more than one person to do it. We use what will give us the most bang for our buck, not necessarily the cheapest or the most expensive but what works the best for us. Bob

You just answered your own question in the second to last sentence. "Intention of catching her". Teach her to "that'll do, here" and get her so that she will come to you all the time. Leave the long line on her and when you tell her to "that'll do, here" you reel her in and give her a good girl when she gets to you. Work on this until you have her under control. Back or run away from her with the long line in your hand encouraging her to come to you and praise when she gets there. There certainly is nothing wrong with her not wanting to quit but she will just get more fired as she is able to get away from you. Work on this and get it down pat and don't work with her off the long line until you have the recall on her. Every time she gets away on you, you are back to square one. Your long line should be at least 50 feet or more. Be consistent and persistent and firm but no anger. She is being trained to come to you and she doesn't know what it is yet. Corrections are only for trained dogs. Once you have this recall on her, your training sessions will be much more enjoyable.......Bob

Excellent post Carol. And very informative in the training aspect also. Thank you.......Bob

You've got a long road ahead of you getting this dog to stay on it's feet but it will be worth it if you can........Bob

I tend to agree with the person who PM'd you to let go of the line a little to keep the flow. At Meeker every year there is a strong draw or pull back to the set out constantly and if you are trying to hold that nice tight line you will pay, pay, pay in lack of forward movement. It is a very fine line between just enough control of the sheep and too much. The dog that wants to go to pressure constantly to "keep control" is forever stopping them when what we really want is for them to stay on line and keep moving. Very intricate and requires the dog to take every slow down or stop we give. In training for this type of work we teach the dog to just get to pressure enough to keep the sheep moving forward but not stop them. This also requires a lot of work and patience to get what we are looking for out of the dog. You need to have that "handle" to get him to the right place on either side of the sheep and just hold them on line and still moving. On range sheep or some of the heavier types of sheep this will require a dog with a good degree of presence and one who will listen very well at the same time. Going to the head all the time not only causes the sheep to stop but, quite often, will also cause them to challenge the dog a lot. I'm sure that you are trying these things Julie but possibly you may be trying to hold that line a little too well and creating a fight that you don't really want to get into. There are times when we need to give a little to complete the task and this is probably one of them. Much better to be a little off line and finish than too try and hold the line and not move! Hope this helps some because I have experienced the same problems many times as I like to run with straight lines and tight turns and it is hard for me to give on line and I need to learn to do this myself. Bob

There are those dogs out there who will only listen to certain types of people. I don't really feel it's a male/female thing. I think it has more to do with the individual's character and whether it matches the character of the dog. There is no good or bad in it, it's just what works. My wife has trained two dogs very well that just wouldn't listen to her when they got to the trial field. She has also trained a couple very well that I would never have been able to handle in a lifetime, nor would I have wanted to. Not to say that they were not good dogs. They were but they didn't match my genetic make-up. In other words, they were probably too sensitive for me but my wife, bless her little pea pickin' heart, has the patience of Jobe and brought these dogs along just fine with no problems and never lost her cool once. The other two that I inherited from her are running fine for me and I am quite happy with them. I have seen this quite a bit over my years of training dogs and, as a trainer, I need to know how to train most types of dogs, but there are some that really challenge me that are awful good dogs but I can honestly say that I would rather my wife train them as she is more suited to that type. Bob

Go to Greg Ackland's site and read it. It is very informative and gets away from all the BS. Bob

OK, I think I am getting the picture now. I think you are probably letting her fetch the sheep to you without commands. If so the flanking out to one side or the other is just her trying to hold the sheep straight to you but they are probably moving a little too fast for her to control them. Probably the reason she is getting to to 3 or 9 o'clock is the desire to get them slowed down. Working a hill is much more difficult for young dogs to manage balance, especially if they are not used to that topography. It would appear to me that she is trying really hard to keep them straight and in control but doesn't really know anything about pace yet. Your walk abouts are good practice for balance work and it sounds like she does that really well and it is a good exercise to do at the end of a training session to keep the balance in your dog. However, you need to start controlling the speed of the sheep by 1) teaching her to lift properly with nice soft presence approaching the sheep with patience and firmness turning them toward you and walking on towards you. If she is lifting them hard and getting things into motion too energetically the mistake has already been made and will get worse from there on. Once you have taught her to lift nicely, then control the speed of the sheep by slowing her down and keeping her at a distance from the sheep so that they are moving but comfortable. This is different for each dog and you will get to know where that place is soon. I think you will find with her that once you get the proper pace on the sheep she will be able to hold the line to you as it would appear to me that she has a good desire to do just that. It certainly wouldn't hurt to give her a few flanks if needed but having a dog that will keep sheep on line is very desirable. You can do this by moving yourself at the bottom of the field to change that balance point if needed. This will keep her thinking and knowing where you are all the time. Once you have this nice straight fetch then you need to move into the harder stuff getting her to listen, slow down when asked, flank when asked and yes even flank her around in front of the sheep and push them back where they came from. She must learn, that even though she can hold a line well, she must take commands from her handler. Be sure to mix this up so that you don't lose that nice desire to keep her sheep on line. There have been some other very good hints and advise from other folks on this forum too and I agree with everything they said. Have fun with your young dog and keep up the good work.....Bob

Maybe you could be a little more specific as to the position of the dog on the sheep on the fetch. Forget the hills etc. and concentrate on what the dog is doing in relationship to the sheep on the fetch and maybe we can help. From what I am understanding from your description the dog is way off the sheep and not behind them (maybe doesn't need to be) I don't understand your meaning when you say you've taken her out on foot and four wheeler. Taken her where? Are you not sending her on a gather to fetch the sheep to you. Please try and give a little better description of the problem and actions of the dog and sheep and we'll get to the bottom of this....Thanks....Bob Also, in case you feel I am flaming, I am not. Sometimes I may be a little too much to the point but I am merely trying to understand the problem better. Bob

Nancy and I use "Revolution" as a tick and flea control as well as heartworm control. We travel all over North America with our trialling and in and out of heavily infested tick areas and have found that this works best for us. One time application per month (systemic), different doses for different weights of dog and we have never run into tick problems since 2001 using this. We used to go to the North American Championships in Tejon, CA in June which was absolutely tick infested by then and were treating with just a spray of some kind which did not work at all. At times we would pull as many as 50 ticks off some of our dogs. Some seemed to be more succeptible than others. Since then, with the start of using Revolution, we have not had any problems with ticks. Bob

I'll answer this post but really I am answering all of them. Pearse has covered most of it quite well but just a few things that I would like to add. We all start out teaching our dogs to fetch in a straight line and a dog that will hold that line is very valuable. However, the dog is required to take commands from the handler which means he may be told, for whatever reason, to change the line that he is on. If the dog doesn't do that he is not a trained dog. I have judged many a trial where there is a straight fetch through the fetch panels from the set out to the handlers' post and the dog has done well and scored well and then into the double lift final with a dog leg fetch on both fetches and he's fighting the handler all the way because he has never been trained to take flanks and do as he's told on the fetch. It wouldn't be any different with a farmer wanting to get sheep from point A to point B with a dog that wouldn't take flanks on the fetch. Not going to hit a gate anyplace or maybe wind up in a pond someplace. Leaving the dog natural and not overcommanding are fine and a desireable trait but the dog still must do as he's told at all times. I use the term that the handler must be in control but not controlling! The dogs that point the best at trials are those dogs that have enough presence to move the sheep, read the sheep, listen well and do as they are told. The dogs that get the job done well on a ranch or farm are also pretty much the same but are probably left a little more on their own to do chores that, quite likely, have become somewhat habitual. Leaving dogs to bring sheep or cattle straight when they need to be going somewhere else is an exercise in frustration and is not getting the job done. Bob

Good post Carol. Training the dog right the first time is the best method. If he is not allowed to do it wrong to start with, this is works much better than corrections all the time. I always put a good stop on any young dog I start to train before we start. I find that it saves a lot of mistakes and keeps me in control most of the time. If a flank or outrun or any other exercise is trained properly to start with we don't need all these other "correction commands" like "out" and "get away" etc., etc., etc. If the dog is going to do something wrong I stop him and make him do it right. If we don't establish bad habits to start with we can spend more and better time bringing the pup along with a lot less stress. Bob

I'm sorry. I thought you said you were travelling this summer but it looks like you meant next summer. So you have plenty of time yet.

If you haven't already started you are probably too late for travelling in the summer. You have a 7 month process to go through before you are allowed to travel beginning with having your dog microchipped and vaccinated for rabies. Go to the Defra site and read the whole Pet Travel Scheme from front to back and understand completely what is needed. There are quite a few folks in the States who have done this and if you are near anyone who has travelled to the World trials they will be able to help you immensely. Everything must be done absolutely correctly, no mistakes, or you will be flying your dog back pretty quick. I would recommend highly the use of a travel broker who is up to date on the whole process and knows the ins and outs. I have been three times now and was the first to take pups to Scotland on the new scheme and it was not a nice experience the first time. Worked out but with some problems which were costly. I have used a broker each time going over but not always coming back as some airlines will fly back to North America with the pet as excess baggage. You cannot go into the UK other than cargo which is expensive. Download all the info from the Defra Web site to do with the Pet Travel Scheme and try and contact someone close to you that has been. If that doesn't work well for you get back to me and I'll help all I can........Bob

First of all. She's not doing anything different than most gathering dogs do. Plain and simple, she loves to fetch the sheep to you and isn't interested at all in driving. So, what has to happen now is you have to get her to fetch the sheep to you, then send her around until she is on the same side of the sheep as you are and ask her to walk up while you pat your leg and get her to come into the sheep. Lots of encouragement needed here and when she has approached the sheep enough to get them moving with your help you walk beside her, still encouraging here to keep walking into the sheep. Lots of "atta girls, you walk up", in a very happy, confident manner. Go with her for a bit (15 or 20 yards) and then leave the sheep and call her off. DO NOT LET HER FETCH THE SHEEP TO YOU!!!! If she likes to push the sheep past you on the fetch then let her and you turn around and ask her as she goes by to "walk up" and let her start driving again with you by her side. As she gets the idea then you start to drop back a little so she starts to understand that she can do it by herself. IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DO NOT LET HER FETCH AT THE END OF THE DRIVING EXERCIZE AS THIS WILL DEFEAT THE IDEA THAT IT IS OK TO PUSH SHEEP AWAY AND TEACH HER, TO THE CONTRARY, THAT IT IS OK TO KEEP BRINGING THEM BACK. If you want to do gathering then bring her off the sheep when you finnish your drive and walk back down the field and send her to gather. Try this for a while and when you get her to the point that you can back off quite a ways there are a few more things that will work to get her to drive. Remember, patience, no anger, and lots of encouragement! Bob

I just wanted to share "my stockdogs' year" and hope others will also. I'd love to hear what your yearly cycle is like. Thankyou for your very informative post. This is very indicative of the abilities that dogs attain when doing "real work". I have always found that the more real work I can give my dogs along with training the quicker and better they come along. You obvioulsy believe that you need "refresher courses" throughout the year to keep your dogs tuned and to learn new stuff that may come along and also to deal with problems that may come to light during your day to day operation. When, and if, you do get to a point in your busy life that you may be able to trial, you will have that knowledge base to progress very quickly in your trialling career. Meanwhile, you are enjoying a life with your dogs and cattle that very few of us are able to and you are gaining knowledge that you could not buy at a dozen clinics. Bob Stephens

Hi there. In my opinion the only reason to neuter a dog is if you don't want to breed him. Nothing wrong with neutering but I feel that the dog should be fully mature and that could be anywhere from a year to three years old. I don't believe that dogs should be neutered before 18 months as they are not physically mature until then and it could affect when they reach maturity (probably later than if they had not been neutered). Neutered dog sometimes become a little more biddable if they were relatively biddable to start with. I don't believe that neutering an aggressive mature male will change things at all just prevent him from being a sire. Some of the other posters have stated that it could affect his confidence and that is quite likely true but nothing is written in stone. As a trainer it is your or your trainer's responibility to bring the dog to his genetic potential confidence level which is different for every dog. As long as he is capable of reaching a level of confidence sufficient to move stock capably then neutering shouldn't really affect him much but don't do it before he is mature. Bob

Hi you SOJ gals and congratulations on your great showing. You are right in saying that Pete Carmichael and my good friend Gerald Bunney are hard to beat. They've been doing it for years and been doing it successfully too. You have just learned that if arena trials are run in the right way that the best handler and dog will still win. It's not about speed. It's about correctness and the good steady dogs and handlers will always do well, just as you folks did. Enjoyed reading all your posts and, once again, congratulations on your fine success.......Bob and Nancy Stephens

Hi Denice. I'll answer your last question first. Taking sheep off a fence(right up against it) is not the same exercise as just getting the dog to walk up on the sheep in a field or walking beside him while driving. It involves the dog pushing in behind the sheep quietly and learning to have the confidence that he can do that. It is quite scary to some and it will, at times, create havoc with some dogs. A lot of them don't like to get in close to their sheep like that and will either fly in with tails up or refuse to go in. This is where the handler must insist (and not give up) that the dog go in on the sheep on the side he has been asked to go on. When he does finally give in and move in behind the sheep it is important that he is not let fly in and grip and be stupid about it. Make sure that you move away so the sheep have a place to go and the dog can bring them to you. This is very important. You are showing him how to be strong and quiet about his work and that is the way it must turn out. Corners are good for this as it is easy to change sides and the dog doesn't have to move too far to do it. When the dog does this with confidence and in quiet control the sheep will learn to trust and respect him and things will be much more in control. A dog that has done this repeatedly will have the confidence to lift pretty well any sheep, keeping in mind his genetic potential of which I talked earlier. You need to get further away from him as he progresses so that he becomes less dependant on you for his courage and confidence over a period of time. To get back to your dog being quite cautious, it is important when running this kind of dog that you encourage him and keep him moving as much as possible. You say he doesn't like messes and you are right. However, you need to get him to make a few messes and recover from them. Get him to go in and do some heel bites if needed and this will also teach him that the SHEEP MUST MOVE. Try working a little closer when training him just to give him that edge that you are there. Slowly over a period of a couple of weeks get further away and ask him to walk up on his sheep. You keep backing away all the time so as not to stop the sheep. Try to run him with as few commands as possible to loosen him up and don't be to picky for a while until he loosens up. He is probably very obedient and biddable. These dogs usually are so it is quite easy for them to become too biddable and dependant on you as that is their nature. If he walks in nice and straight on his sheep when he is starting to drive, that is good. What you need to do when he gets into the "bubble" is urge him on and let him be a little nasty to start with. It doesn't hurt this kind of dog to get a little grippy as long as they are not cheap shots. What you want to do and your goal is to make a bit of an "animal" out of him and then bring him back to a place between where he was and that "animal" stage. The fence and corner work will do this and so will letting him make a few messes and recovering from them. Don't expect this to happen overnight. You are attempting to change this dog's character somewhat and it will not be easy or quick but it will be worthwhile. Try it, you'll like it! Bob

Hi Lora. I don't ususally sell dogs on just because they have one small problem. As a matter of fact I don't usually sell dogs on period. I don't learn much by doing that. The lift, in my opinion, is not a hard problem to deal with. It is usually quite easily remedied by either encouragement or control. This kind of problem can, in my opinion, pretty well always be remedied. This is not to say that all dogs can lift all sheep. After all I don't think that with all the training in the world that I could beat Muhammed Ali in a boxing match. We do have our genetic limits. Our job as trainers is to figure out the best way to train certain qualities into our dogs in a manner that will stay with them. We start training the lift the first day we take our dogs to sheep. In my opinion the dog must be under control (stop and recall) when we go to sheep. I know lots of other folks who don't feel they need this but when you go to sheep with a strong dog you need control. When the dog is sent to gather, which is his God given gift, we watch the way he does it and learn something about the dog. That first few times on sheep will determine the method of training you are going to use. If he has a lot of eye and you see him stalling and "eyeing" on the way out you know you are going to have to use a lot of encouragement and keep the dog moving to loosen him up. These are all going to be general statements as there is not enough time to get into specifics answering this question. If he comes on strong and wants to bust everything at the top or goes straight in then we are going to teach him that we are in control and show him how we want it done. You get between the sheep and him at a reasonable distance with you closer to the sheep. Shuss him either way and push him out.( I guarantee you that this type of dog will need pushing out) When he starts coming to balance start backing up so the sheep have a place to go and the dog can lift them with very little pressure. If he is coming in too fast then check him without lying him down. (this is done by giving him the lie down command but before he actually stops walk him in on the sheep) Don't worry too much about any flanks, as a matter of fact, don't give him any flanks. Just move around at the bottom to make him stay to pressure and balance the sheep to you. Use your lie down for pace on the fetch. You will find that most strong dogs will get into what I call the "dynamo fetch". Once they get the sheep moving they want them to move faster and faster all the time. This is where you must be vigilant and control the dog's pace. Not usually at the lift but just after it. Don't get too excited about slowing the dog too much and let him keep pushing even if a little too fast. Remember, you want the dog to win and think he can do anything but still listen. You are training, not trialling. It isn't just about straight lines and tight turns. You are also building character into the dog and confidence. This is what is going to make the difference on the lift between the dog that has not experienced all types of sheep and conditions and the one that has the confidence to "feel the fear and do it anyway". On the other side if your dog tends to be a little cautious or has a lot of eye it's your job to bring him to his genetic confidence level. Recognize the fact that there are going to be times during his training that he is not going to be able to move his sheep. That's where you come in. With this type of dog you need to do a lot of fence and corner work with the dog bringing sheep out of the corner and off the fence. Make sure that the sheep always have a place to go when doing this. You don't want to put the dog in a position that the sheep can't move and he has an immovable object in front of him. This will not build confidence. Send him behind the sheep and you back away from the fence quickly so he can bring them to you. Every time he is able to do this he gains a little more confidence and becomes more dog. You keep doing this getting further away from him and sheep each time until he can do it at 100 yards or better. You are still training the lift when bringing them off the fence but you are also training in confidence which is what the lift is all about. Don't worry if the dog starts pushing a little too hard on the fetch. That's what we want this dog to do. You can take care of the pace after you have the confidence. That's all for now. Have to go feed......Bob

Hi Bill. I've been following this thread for a while now and thought I would give my two bits worth. When I start training a young dog to lift, which is right away the first day he's on the field, I let him figure it out. I don't start a young dog until he has a good stop and a recall so that I have some semblance of control when we go to the small field. If he leaves some behind he gets a "look" and is not allowed to bring the others until he picks up the straglers. If he's a really strong pushy dog I, of course, will have to control the lift somewhat but I don't stop him or get on his case hard if he's having a little fun up there. I'll just move around at the bottom so that he has to flank to stay on balance and that will usually slow him down. If he's a bit of a cautious pup, I'll leave him alone at the top and really encourage him to get in and take control. No commands, just shussing and atta boys. Don't really care if he bites or not as long as it's not viscious. If he gets thinking that he's a real power house and starts to get a little pushy that's good. It's a lot easier to calm it down a bit than put something in you've taken out. I try to bring the pup along with as many types of sheep I can get on once he's got a pretty good handle on him and my job as a trainer is to bring him to his genetic potential level of confidence. We sometimes, in the interest of gaining a nice smooth lift, which is beautiful to watch, forget that all sheep and conditions are not the same. A dog that has been left to figure out what kind of sheep he's working will eventually be able to lift pretty well any type of sheep as he has been taught throughout his life that the sheep MUST MOVE to get them to the boss. The dog in question, as you say, is not a fearful dog but he obviously did not "know" what to do when faced with sheep that wouldn't move. If he had been brought along to "know" that he had to move them no matter what, he quite possibly, could have done that. We sometimes tend to take some of the 'PRESENCE" out of our dogs in order to get this nice smooth lift. I remember a statement that Ralph Pulfer said a few years back. I think it was on one of the Finals tapes. I quote: "Don't ever take anything out of a dog that you might need down the road". I have been trying to adhere to that for a lot of years. Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I really screw up but not for lack of trying. Usually from lack of knowledge and sometimes patience. Leave your dog to work and figure things out and you be the guide. Be in control and not controlling and I think you'll find that if God gave you a good one he'll stay a good one. Bob Stephens