RMSBORDERCOLLIES

Team results: England 1st., Canada 2nd., Norway 3rd.

Individual: 1st. Jaran Knive - 2nd. Kevin Evans -3rd. Serge Vanderzweep

Kristi, Lou is with you still. He is in your heart, your mind and your memories. They never fade. I remember from the start and to the passing and I remember him helping you out throughout your early years. He is what we call "steady" and consistent, courageous but not aggressive, willing but not needy and BIG! Don't fret. Enjoy the memories and that part of your life with him. Bob

I have a friend on the Isle of Skye who has been using it for his cows and sheep for years. There is a great distillery on Skye and most of the farmers there use the mash. It is delivered to them right from the distillery. Bob Stephens

Great videos Dave as usual. Anyone not looking at these is not interested in getting better. This video is a free clinic/ Bob Stephens

I think you probably figured that out for yourself too Eileen by adding the first and second round scores as I did. But there's nothing posted yet as to who the Champions are. Bob Stephens

I get a little upset when I hear all this stuff about white factoring and deafness. I know there have been studies done to establish whether white factoring (whatever that is) leads to either early onset deafness or deafness at a later date. None of these has been conclusive as of my last reading. My original kennel stud dog, Del'mar Turk was a split face dog out of a split face sire and a bitch with a fair amount of white on her. Turk produced at least 25 pups over his lifetime and not one was ever deaf until very late in life when most border collies experience some form of deafness. I'm talking about 12 years of age plus. Turk, himself, was 15 1/2 when he died and still able to hear quite clearly for his age. I don't see anything abnormal in the pictures of the bitch or the dog to make me think there would be a problem. However, that said, I don't know the lines of either dogs and, if early onset deafness was present in the ancestors I might be tempted to do the hearing tests. (Not sure they work that well either)...Bob

His gait looks fine and you're in pretty good shape too. If it's not broke, don't try to fix it. If the vet doesn't see anything wrong there likely isn't. I'm sure he would recommend rays if he thought they were needed. He appears to be athletic and of good nature and pretty happy with doing stuff with you. Enjoy him......Bob Stephens

Thanks Dave for the excellent videos, as usual. Just like being there. Looks like it was a great trial. Once I get my eyes and knee fixed, we'll see you on the trial field, maybe this winter......Bob Stephens, thanks again

Quick update on this dog.g

 

I needed to get sheep out of a pasture that was down a steep, wooded slope. Feeling a little lazy and not wanting to brave the icy rocks, I sent the dog and gave him a "look" command. He ran down through the trees and across the frozen creek, at which point he encountered a fence. I gave him another look command and he slipped through an opening in the wire. I could see him cast out to the right but my view of parts of the field was obstructed by the trees.

 

A few minutes later he showed up at the fence with the flock. I had him drive them along the fence to an opening, maybe 150 yards. Once they were through the opening and at the creek they stopped, not wanting to cross. I guess they didn't like the ice. Frankie had to hit a few heels to convince them to go, but they were honest, well placed grips. He fetched them up the slope then drove them past me into the front field.

 

The farm owner told me that the outrun down the slope and across the field would have been about 600 to 700 yards, the first 300 being blind (through the woods). Not bad for a dog that wanted to play bowling for sheep when he was younger. I think he is a keeper

Pretty nice when you can have that kind of confidence in a dog that he can pretty well get any job done. Good luck and thanks for getting back to me. Also I would like to recommend that those folks who can get to a Bobby Dalziel clinic get to it. I know that he is putting one on back east this spring and this would be a good opportunity for some of you to train under one of the masters of the world. Bob

Just thought I would give everyone an update about how Frankie is doing. First of all, I LOVE this dog! I spent my entire vacation budget for the year in order to attend all 8 days of the Bobby Dalziel clinic in April. Best money I ever spent! I feel that I have grown light years as a handler and trainer.

 

Frankie does NOT respond to pressure by blowing up. I was reading him wrong and he was just taking advantage of me. With Bobby's help he was working beautifully within minutes. Basically all we did was put him on a very, very long line and stop him if he tried to get away with anything. He learned that I could enforce my verbal commands, even if I was hundreds of yards away. I also learned how to use a lunge whip instead of a training stick to flick him out if he was getting tight. Definitely like that tool much better! No raised voices needed, just a little flick of the wrist.

 

By day two I think Bobby was wondering why in the world I was saying that I sometimes had problems with him. He did great the entire clinic, until the last day. That morning I stepped in a hole and sprained my ankle while working my younger dog. Frankie knew I couldn't move fast and pulled one of his bowling for sheep moves. (Imagine dog going "WAHOOOO!" and joyfully sprinting straight up the field. )

 

Since then I have continued with Bobby's methods at home and I am absolutely thrilled with my dog. He has taken over as my right hand man. All the issues I was having with him previously are essentially gone. When he was younger I was thinking he wasn't a natural gathering dog because he sometimes left sheep behind. Not now! I have been working on shedding and holding a single this month and am finding that convincing him to leave the rest of the flock can be a battle. With no focused training per say, just practical work, he has learned to sweep the field, do short look backs for stock left behind in the brush and flank on his own (no commands needed) to keep a stray with the rest of the flock.

 

He is definitely coming into his own and I wouldn't sell him for any amount of money. I had decided this fall to focus all my time and money for at least a year on training, then get back into trialing in the future. Best decision I ever made.

Hi there. Even though I am much older than Bobby, he is my mentor and I think that his Wisp is the best dog I have ever watched run, bar none. I try to follow most of Bobby's methods if at all possible and talk to him as often as I can. With dogs of your type he is a wizard so I hope you learned lots and took it home with you. You have a great dog there and he will serve you well throughout your time with him. Good luck and stay with it........Bob

Hi Bob, hope all is going well.

 

I have a "should I step up and change him" or "should I leave it alone type of question".

 

We run alot of arena trials in our area, our own place has a lot of alleys, pens, nooks and cranies that a dog has to navigate, there are places where as if the dog kicks out too big they will find themselves stopped by a fence so Jake has to make a lot of adjustments to keep sheep calm and under control by easing around them as opposed to building distance away from them. It's not an unusual situation where as Jake has to go up an alley turn and go down another before arriving to a pen where he can get around the stock, when I initially send him I tell him the flank I expect him to take when he makes contact, so he just goes off and waits to execute the flank when he enters the pen.

 

I've run into a little problem when we go to judged arena trials, I get tagged on my outrun a few points due to Jake running direct and then kicking out around the stock vs. running out as big as he can from the beginning. I've been thinking about just stopping him and making him run out big, when it came to me what he was doing. He's clearing the obstacles before he takes his flank so that he maintains contact and does not get trapped by an obstacle along the fence, or rather he is trying to maintain an uninhibited visual contact. I've have noticed that if he can see around an obstacle he will go around it but if he can't he treats it as a barrier all the way to the fence.

 

I hope I'm explaining this in a fashion that makes sense, when your standing at the handlers post and have a pen in front of you to your left and a y-chute in front of you to your right and ask for a Come-bye, Jake will go off to your left but stays on the right side of the pen, as soon as he clears the pen he kicks onto the proper path. He does the same on the Away to me, moves off to your right but will stay on the left side of the chute until he clears and then kicks out to the right. By doing this he is maintaining full visual contact on the sheep, I guess he is treating the two obstacles as funnel and the arena prevents us from getting enough distance to allow him to see around them.

 

Here is my question, should I just leave it alone and take the point deductions or should I retrain him and make him go around the obstacles. I'm not seeing the problem in open fields. I hate to call it a problem, I guess it's more of an issue that dings me at a trial but really is necessity when working in places where there is no guaranty that you can get there by going around.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Deb

Hi Deb. First of all, I need to know if the dog is going straight towards the sheep and then bending or is he just going to the inside of the pen and chute and then bending out. If he is just staying inside the two obstacles and then bending, (which appears to be what he is doing)I wouldn`t fool around with it but I would certainly be asking why the points are being taken when the dog is doing a proper outrun. For the dog to be going behind the pen and chute I would think that would be going too square at the bottom of the outrun and I would probably take points for that if I were judging. You don`t want the dog going at right angles to you when he leaves on the outrun. You want him going at 30 to 45 degrees and no more. He must stay on that path until reaching 3 or 9 o`clock and then make his arch onto the sheep staying at the same distance while coming around behind the sheep. If he goes square at the bottom, that is a waste of time and energy and not efficient so points will be lost. You say you run in judged arena trials which we don`t have up here so the outrun isn`t ever judged in our arena trials. Are your judges competent or just anyone that`s around to do it. It`s important that you don`t change something that`s right just for the sake of a couple of points if they, in fact, shouldn`t be coming off. If it`s not there in a field trial, it`s not there period. It sounds to me like your Judge has something in mind for the way he wants to see the dogs do the outrun in a small arena and it may not be the right thing to be doing. I don`t think I would be changing anything right now until you talk to the person judging and ask the question, after the trial is over, what it is he would like to see. We don`t want to get to the point that we are training our dogs to run under specific judges (as if that could be done!) as we would certainly be in a quandry most of the time as most judges tend to have some minor discrepencies when it comes to what they look for in a run. Do what you think is the right way for you and accept what you get at the trial.........Good luck......Bob

Hi Bob,

 

We have a 14 month old ( out of Scott Glen lines) that has a lot more eye than any of our other dogs (we have had 8 other BCs); We are having trouble teaching her an outrun as she seems to eye them up and is really slow to go out and around. We are keeping everything small. It is icy and we are only working in a small arena as there isn't anywhere on the farm that has good enough footing for the sheep and dogs.

 

Once we have her going around, circling, finding balance she is quick and keen but when we set her up for an out run she goes out slowly and eyes the sheep at about 8 o clock;

 

If we correct her she goes slower. We've been doing lots of short work, circling, trying to free her up, not letting her stop and eye them. We have about 200 ewes and when we work her on the big flock it is much freer, putting her on just a few really seems to bring out her eye.

 

anything else you can think of? Just much more reinforcement of the circling and keeping her going? is the small arena maybe just reinforcing the eye not allowing her to get out more?

 

Cynthia (and Becca)

Hi guys. I am not much inclined to do any circling other than to teach quick reverse flanks later on in the process. I like to teach the dog to outrun right off the get go and the way I do it is to start in a small field, 1/2 to 1 acre, get between the dog and the sheep, closer to the sheep, step off balance a bit and send the dog. Keep this very short to start with, about 30 yards or so. When the dog is behind the sheep, start backing up so she is bringing the sheep to you and then when she is getting them to you do a little balance work by walking backwards and doing turns and speeding up and slowing down. No commands other than for pace, jus using the ssshhh to start with. Once you have her going and fetching the sheep to you, then you can start putting the flank commands on her when you send her to gather. She will quickly associate these commands with her sides as she is understanding balance now. Use as many sheep as she is comfortable with so that she is not getting locked on to just a few. She is reading that they are going to move and her way of dealing with that is to lock on and stop them from moving or be in a position to stop them from moving. You are right in thinking that this dog must be kept moving so if she starts to slow down when she is doing her outrun give her a very motivated ssshhh! to let her know you want her going out with purpose. If you do the above now and stay between her and the sheep when you send her on the outrun until she is gathering to you properly you eventually will get further from the sheep and closer to the dog when you send her. The idea being that when she is ready, you will send her to gather from your side. Make sure she is gathering properly with you between her and the sheep before you send her from your side. With all the circling that you have done, she is probably not very comfortable being sent to gather from your side. She is used to you being in a balance position all the time so she does not understand the gathering principle yet. It is very important that she learns to find balance at the top when gathering so don't be giving a bunch of commands when she gets there. Let her find the balance point by you moving around at the bottom if you feel she is not in the right place. All you need to control right now is pace and be careful that you don't slow her down too much either. A little bit too much push is 800% better than not enough! Get back to me after you start doing this and let me know if you need any more help.....Good luck....Bob

[emphasis mine]

 

Bravo, Bob! I haven't see this pup (since he was 8 weeks old), but if he's like the rest of the litter/family, you've nailed him completely!

 

A

Is he one of yours Anna or maybe one of Loren's? How's things going. I'm just recovering from a new hip and knee and just starting to get back to training my dogs again. Wanted to get to Zamora but dogs are almost as rusty as I am right now. Take care......Bob

I have a young dog, who seems to have lots of potential - at the very beginning of his training at a year of age, he seeks balance, covers his sheep, seems to read his sheep and have some pace, has confidence, takes corrections without sulking or losing interest, and is enthusiastic, intense, and focussed. He goes both ways (still in the small pen) quite nicely; changes direction easily and without coming into the sheep (turning nicely on his hocks); seeks balance and covers; does a little diving and gripping but mainly either in a bullying fashion rather than that of a worried youngster, or when the sheep are near the fence and the pressure is a bit tight

 

I think he'll be all I could ask for a farm cattledog, if I can develop a good partnership with him. But it's hard getting him to acknowledge the handler as being in the picture and being in charge. It's taken (taking) a lot of effort and consistency to get him to be polite on the lead; he's taking his downs (sometimes a bit reluctantly) on sheep, and calling off (now that he's learned that it doesn't mean everything is all over but that he may just be getting another go shortly); and he's learning that he won't get his sheep if he's not polite and right.

 

He's from strong cattledog breeding, and I need a dog with confidence and presence. My current dog has neither but usually gets the job done on our fairly easy cows. Would you have some advice on working with a rather strong-willed (hard-headed?) youngster? Especially in terms of working on/developing the partnership aspect?

Sorry I have taken so long to get back but the farm work has been calling lately.

Sounds like you have a good one there, especially for cattle! The secret with this type of dog is for you to establish yourself as the leader of the team. In my opinion, this is the type that is necessary for most cattle operations as they have natural confidence and ability along with an enduring presence. However, on the flip side, they are not team players in that they are usually control freaks and love to be in charge of the stock at all times, hence the problem of the handler not being in the picture. He doesn't feel like he really needs you to help him right now. This is really a good trait, providing you are ready to take the reins and become the leader. I need you to understand that you have Mike Tyson and you need to use whatever is necessary to establish your leadership postion with this dog. He will not come along quickly until he understands that you are the ultimate leader and your every command must be obeyed. You need to read his every thought and understand what he is doing at all times as most of the time he will be right but there will be times when he will just go and beat something up just for the hell of it. That's when your timing and understanding will have to kick into gear and you will take over. I would put him on a long line for now and take him out of the round pen where he can get out where he needs to be on his sheep. He needs to have a solid stop on him EVERY TIME and you can get this by walking him up on his sheep and when he is just approaching the flight zone and you see the sheep starting to react, tell him to either "stand there" or "lie down", whichever you intend on using and give a sharp jerk and release on the line and make him stop. He must stop immediately. I would start a dog like this on a "lie down" as you will need one on him to take some pressure off the sheep when you stop him. He will present a much scarier picture on his feet to the sheep than lying on the ground when he stops. Get the lie down on him now and then you can work on the "stand there" later on when you have the good stop. Once you have the really good stop on this dog, things will become much easier for you. Sounds like he has extremely good balance which is quite natural with this type of dog and he will always turn in on his stock every time you stop him or walk him up. The round pen with this type of dog is usually just asking for failure as he is always much too close to his stock. If you feel you need to use the round pen have the dog on the outside so he can't be scaring his stock all the time. I don't particularily like them and I usually start all my dogs in a 1 acre field and that way they can find where they need to be on their sheep. My dogs are usually the type you have here and I train a lot of cattle dogs throughout the winter and I like to see this independance and confidence in them. If it's not there, they usually are not enough dog to handle our type of cattle in the mountains around here. Establish the impeccable stop and get control of him and things will go much better for you. He will not be easy but you will have a dog that you will be very pleased with for the rest of his life if you are determined to be the boss. I'm not talking about bullying him or ragging on him or drilling him. It's pretty simple. He needs to do as you tell him, every time, whether it's just lying down in the house or stopping behind 200 cows to flanking when he's told and how he's told. Get the stop and then get back to me and we can go on with this great little dog from there.........Good luck......Bob

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The outrun does not have to suffer when you are teaching the drive. You should always end your training sessions with balance work and you will never lose the outrun if you do that. It is very important, especially with trial dogs, that you have balance sessions every time you train. Because of the necessity to be commanding the dogs repeatedly when training and trialling they tend to lose balance if it is not kept in them. The reason for this is obvious as balance is very natural and when trialling and training to trial we often get to the point we are telling the dogs what to do all the time and they become used to that and are waiting for us to tell them what to do. Therefore loss of balance. Always mix your training up. Keep it interesting for the dog by changing what you do throughout your sessions. Never, ever, just train one thing every day for long periods of time. Your dog is required to do a lot of things throughout his life and his trialling career and you don't want to lose any of them. Right now, you need to start sending your dog on his outrun and moving yourself to change the balance point a lot so that he is recognizing where you are all the time. You need to move quickly and surprise him as to where you are all the time. Start short and move out as he becomes better at it. No commands, just you moving yourself back and forth sideways at the other end so that where he must bring the sheep changes all the time. This will sharpen his natural instinct to balance properly and you will, eventually, get your nice outrun and lift back again. If he starts to go past the balance point, move yourself into him to force him to go the other way in order to bring the sheep to you. This will eventually teach him not to run by at the top. I don't like to stop a dog at the top as the dog really should know better where the balance point is than you do. He will find it again if you let him and you can't let him find it if you are giving him commands when he should be using his instinct and stock sense. As far as the fetch is concerned you need to control this for pace right now and just move yourself around to keep the sheep on line. Eventually you will need to start giving commands on the fetch again to be sure you have control but for now keep it as quiet and natural as possible. At the end of EVERY!!! session do 30 to 40 seconds of balance work, walking the field with your dog bringing sheep to you, turning, slowing down, speeding up, etc. NO COMMANDS other than for pace. Try this for a while and get back to me and let me know how you are doing and we'll go on from there. Be patient and watch your dog to see how he is working so you have two way communication (reading your dog).......Bob

Dear Bob,

I am working on getting an immediate stop on my 5 year old bitch. She has been allowed to take a few extra steps for years – yes SHAME SHAME SHAME on me, and I am really trying to make it better as it sometimes costs me dearly in tight situations. She is extremely biddable, but this has been allowed to go on for so long, it will take some real work to make it better. I have tried a few things. The most successful is asking her to lie down in a driving situation as the sheep move in a direction away from the exhaust. I tried this first with a long line, but didn’t really need it. I think this works pretty well because I am a presence nearby to enforce the down, and there is no “worry” on her part that the stock will “get away”. I have also tried working back in the round pen and leaning into her on a fetch when I ask her to lie down. If she does not lie down, I move into her and force her off her sheep. If I do this several times, it gets a little better, but not much. I recently got my own stock so I am, for the first time, able to work my dogs on a regular basis. The stock I have are pretty light, I might be better off with some heavier sheep for training in this situation, but don’t have much access to that type of stock. I understand that it will take me a long time to make progress on this issue, but would appreciate any suggestions you might have for me. Thanks so much!

 

Sonja

Hi Sonja. Sorry I have been tardy in answering but my monitor went down on my computer and I have been a day or two getting the new one on line. Regarding getting your dog to stop, some of the things you are doing are good and will work but the main thing you need to do is stop asking and start telling her to stop. When teaching a young dog to stop and you will notice, I didn't say "lie down" I make myself as big as possible by holding up my hands and going at the dog so that she understands the "need" to do as she's told. In other words, "get her attention"! I think your 5 year old is probably past the stage that a long line would be much good but it was worth a try. Of course, consistency is the secret to good control on a dog, and that is what you need here. Now that you have your own stock, this should mean that you and your dog will come along faster. The light stock shouldn't give a problem when teaching the dog to stop as this is more an obedience issue than a work issue. One thing I do with most of my dogs when I am going out to train is I stop them either with a lie down or stand there on the way out to the training field a few times before we start training. I get them "ready to listen". When you get out to your training session practise your stops in all phases of work, even on the outrun so that you know you have control of the dog at all times. Send your dog on an outrun either way and when she is part way out stop her then give her the flank and let her complete her outrun. Don't do this on a routine basis as you don't want to train her to stop all the time, only when told to do so. Stop her in different places and at different times all the time so she doesn't get into a habit. Make sure you let her complete her outrun most of the time so she knows that she's doing things right. Stop her on the drive and on the cross drive and anywhere at any time. The way you do this is, like I said, by making yourself big, not just in stature but voice and whistle also. Call her name first (get her atttention) and then, in a firm and commanding voice (not necessarily loud but if loud works then use it) "lie down" or "stand there" or whatever you are using to stop your dog. If she doesn't stop you need to get out there to her and chastise her as this is blatent disobedience and has nothing to do with being a natural worker. She needs correction and then told to stop again and then tell her to "stay there" while you get back to your position on the field. I would work close to start with, probably 50 yards to start and then as you gain control move out further as she progresses. One thing to think about is the fact that there are some dogs out there that just hate to lie down and sometimes it is better, when they are young, to let them stand as long as they stop. The "lie down" can come later on when they are more mature. It is much better at times to give to the natural method of the dog when she is young than to fight for unnatural obedience at that time and possible cause the dog to get clappy in it's younger years. However, just to reinforce what I said earlier, the dog must do as she's told when she's told or she will never be in the right place to do what you want her to do. Don't accept two or three steps as a stop either. Stop means right there and nothing else. If you want the dog to slow down or steady we teach that by using a nice soft voice and use the stop in a long slow command rather than the sharp stop command. This long slow command will eventually develop into a steady command when we have the control on the dog. Be consistent and use as much pressure as needed to accomplish your task and she will come along. Remember, she is five years old and can take quite a bit more pressure than a young dog. She is coming into her prime and can really start doing a nice job for you now but you need to be the leader of the team which means that you can "read" her well and understand her and she knows what you want and understands that you are in control. Be patient and understanding but also be firm and determined and things will progress much better for both you and your dog........Don't hesitate to get back with questions regarding her progress as this will probably not be a one time thing. The stop is extremely important, probably the most important aspect of training and with some dogs not that easy to obtain. Good luck./......Bob

You can sugarcoat or rationalize this any way you want people but the behavior that the veterinarian reported on in the email forwarded to Nancy is what will spell the end of stockdog training and trialling in the United States.

 

There are far too many people out there who have no business calling themselves "trainers" allowing untrained dogs with no talent for stockwork to routinely chase and abuse the 10 - 20 sheep they own. Think about it. "Eight to ten dog owners" probably represents 10 - 15 dogs "working" the same 4 or five packets of sheep, two or three times a session, three times a week, every week, supervised by someone who has maybe ProNovice level training but is holding themselves out there as a "trainer".

 

It's the blind leading the blind and the motivation is money with no regard for the stock. Fifteen dogs, three times a week at $30 a go is $1350 a week, over 5K/month which is decent money even if you are selling your 20 sheep as culls/utility ewes every month and buying 20 more.

 

On the handler side, we're talking largely about people who won't be doing stock work with their dogs and likely will not be trialling at USBCHA Open trials. These are people who think either that their dog needs to chase (sorry, "herd") livestock to be fulfilled, or who have the idiotic belief that allowing their dog to chase sheep around will cure it of its behavioral or temperamental problems stemming from their inability to put manners or socialization on the dog.

 

I know people who have sheep and will let others work them, but if they see rash work or their sheep are being run around and harassed, the person is politely asked not to come back. There are others who actually are great trainers of dogs and who will step in when necessary and prevent unnecessary harassment of the stock. That's not what we're talking about here.

 

Training young dogs is not always pretty, but with proper training, the rough stuff doesn't last long and people who know what they are doing can train young dogs without having their sheep routinely abused. That's not what we are talking about either.

 

We are talking about the clueless training the credulous, or the callous training the ignorant which will lead to people like the veterinarian in the original post alerting the local Animal Welfare authorities followed shortly thereafter by moves by local authorities who don't know stock work, and animal rights lobbyists who oppose the use of domestic animals for anything, to start moving against the use of dogs to work stock altogether.

 

The question we all need to be asking ourselves is; why are we doing this? Are we really all concerned about keeping the Border Collie as a stock dog and preserving the craft of moving stock calmly and humanely in partnership with dogs, or is that just the rationalization we use to justify entertaining ourselves at sheepdog trials? If the former, then it is incumbent upon us, as a community, to bring what ever peer pressure we can to bear on eliminating situations where stock is being ill-used. If we don't, others will and we will not like the results.

 

Pearse

As usual a very good post Pearse. I also know of a few facilities where people and their dogs are allowed to "chase" sheep for a fee and advertise themselves as trainers etc. but are seldom seen at the field while this nonsense is taking place. And, as you say, the results of this type of acitivity will be very chilling and may lead to the demise of our way of life. Moving sheep or cattle with a dog is not a game to be played by those with no knowledge of the gentle movement of livestock. It is knowledgeable work by knowledgeable people and dogs to move stock with as little stress as possible and needs to be learned and appreciated by those who choose to become stock people. It's not a game of abusing stock with the idea of giving your dog something to play with for 15 minutes. Bob

Merry Christmas everyone. May your dogs be eager, healthy and become wise and may you gain the understanding needed to do them justice.........Bob

hsnrs- I will look into that book as well. Thank you.

 

bcnewe2- She thinks he is anxious about keeping the sheep together, but doesn't understand fully to look to the human for guidance. He is that way with much of everything...he will try to figure it out himself before looking to me or anyone else for help (which I attribute to lack of human contact and no socialization for the majority of his life). He has been very quick to pick up stand, there, come by, that will do, and away in the round pen, which she was impressed with. She thinks that over time he will become less anxious as he learns more from working stock. I am inclined to believe this is true, but again, since I have no experience, I do not know whether this is right or not. If I had had him his whole life and knew his back ground I would be less concerned, but I don't and unfortunately never will.

My take on this dog is that he is strong and probably quite confident and doesn't need any help from the handler in his own mind. I would get a stop on him as quickly as possible and move out of the round pen to a 1/2 acre field once you have the stop on him. It sounds to me like he has been worked on stock prlor to you getting him and that is why he is catching on so quickly. Once you have the stop on him ( you can read some of the advice I have given others on the expert list) start doing short gathers with him and let him use his natural balance to fetch the sheep to you. You can do this by moving yourself to change the balance point so that he moves to proper balance in order to keep bringing the sheep to you. Do lots of walking backwards with lots of turns both sharp and slow and I'm quite sure that in a few weeks this dog will be working for you. Stay with your trainer as you are a novice and need all the help you can get but you need to get a stop on the dog soon. If you need more help get back to me and between myself and your trainer we can bring what appears to be a pretty good dog along. Bob Stephens

Today, I said goodbye to my once-in-a-lifetime dog, Bear. My best guess is that he was about 14 years old. He had been having kidney issues all year, though you would never have known it until the last couple of months. Up until the end of the summer, he was still playing ball with my border collies, and holding his own. But when he didn't want to eat, I knew that he was telling me that he was tired, and that he wanted to go. An aussie turning down chicken liver is a very serious matter.

 

Bear was my "first" dog in so many things - agility, disc dog, flyball, musical freestyle ... he did them all. He qualified at every agility regionals at which he ran, and he competed at two Nationals. He had no real training in flyball, but he earned his FDCH easily. I think we even had a 0.00 start once! But his true love was stock work, though I never did get a lie-down on him in 6 years of trying. He had a lot of instinct, not a lot of talent, and he usually made a mess of things, but he gave me a glimpse of what true partnering up with a dog could be like. Because of him, I became interested in herding, in sheep, and in working sheepdogs. Because of him, I have Lou and now Rex. I will always remember him in a field full of border collies, the large black blob at the back of a streak of black and white.

 

Bear was wonderful with all people, but he loved children the most. He always had a butt wiggle and a kiss for any kid who wanted one, and even a few who didn't. He brought Wick out of her neurotic shell, and made her a more confident, social dog.

 

Dog #82 at the Vancouver SPCA turned out to be my heart dog. I loved him, I miss him, and I hope that we will see each other again one day. Go Bear go! I hope you can catch a squirrel on that side of the Bridge.

 

Bear ATChC MSCDC O-NAC O-NGC O-OJC S-TG-N TN-N FDCH

 

My heart goes out to you Kristi. You never forget the first ones and they remain in your life forever. But it is in a good way that we remember them and it is in a good way that we let them go to a better place. Cherish the memory. It is sacred.....Bob

Most of the immersion heaters specifically warn against using extension cords -- the cord can heat up and cause a fire hazard, and if the insulation cracks they may also put stray voltage on the water.

 

My snotty answer above notwithstanding, the best water system I have ever used are the Nelson water bowls. When you need to clean them out, you don't flood half the barn the way so many cattle and hog waterers do. Very little water is kept warm, so electrical draw is pretty low. And the water is actually kept warm -- about 40 to 45 degrees -- so your animals are not eating food just to have enough calories to warm up after a drink.

 

http://www.nelsonmfg.com/a700L_001.htm

Depending on the amount of sheep you have there are horse watering tubs, 32 litre, which are only 250 watt banded heaters built right into the plastic tub. They are a little pricy here in western Canada but are very efficient and cheap to operate. They cost about $125.00 here and are probably half that in the States. You still have to fill them but that usually isn't a big problem if you have frost free hydrants available. They are probably good for about 8 to 10 sheep each. We don't use them as we have too many sheep for one but the horse has one and it is excellent. Bob

Bob,

We live in NW Georgia. I am planning to go to a few trials to let her see what is happening. We have also been watching videos on the internet, and some show she watchs on tv. I have been looking at books and training videos, but I have not decided which to buy yet. Our dog satys outside mostly, but he does come in the house. We have been working on sitting, down, and stay. He is doing pretty good, except I can't get him to lie down while he is running. Only after I tell him to sit. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Thanks, Shay

Getting him to lie down while running is just a matter of putting a long line on him (abouit 50 feet for now) so that you have control all the time while you are out running him. Let him go for his run but always on the line so that when you tell him to lie down you have a way to enforce it. Let him get about 5 or 6 feet from you to start with and tell him to lie down calling his name first so you have his attention. Give a sharp jerk on the line and go to him and push down on his withers and make him lie down. When he's down, give him a "good boy" and walk away pushing your hand at him up in the air telling him to stay. Don't go too far to start with but as he gets better at it get a little further away both with the lie down and the stay. Don't try to control an untrained dog off line as he will get away with anything he wants as you will have no way of enforcing your commands or showing him what you want. Good luck and stay in touch. We'll get your daughter trialling down the road.......Bob

Here are my answers:

1) No

2) Very little

3) I have about 9 acres behind my house

4) I have always had dogs, but never a working dog

5) We just want to trial because we don't have any livestock

6) Not a 100% sure. I think he has always just been a pet. I know he has not had any stock time since I got him the first of August.

Thanks for replying Bob, and I hope this isn't going to be a train wreck.

Hi there. This is going to take some time and energy on your part and mine so here are some of my recommendations for the implentation of a program for your daughter. First of all, it would be nice if she could get to a few trials to begin with to see what is done with the dog and livestock and be sure that that is her interest. See if she enjoys watching and has the interest to put in some hard work learning what to do. I don't know what area you live in but if you could let me know I'm sure I could put you on to a good trainer in that location. Find out if there is a good stock dog association in your area and join. I am talking about "working stock or sheep dog associations", not CKC or AKC oriented clubs. I can give you a hand with this as soon as I know where you are. There is an exceptionally good book out there for beginners or anyone written by Vergil Holland called "Herding Dogs, Progressive Training" ISBN 0-87605-644-3. I believe he also has a follow up book out now too. You could look into that also. I would recommend you get that book as it has a very good troubleshooting section and explains things in detail throughout the book. Things that you can do with your dog right now are just basically teaching him manners and obedience that will get him started in bonding and listening to you or your daughter or both. Vergil's book will help with that but you can certainly teach him to "lie down", "here to me" (recall or come to you), "stay there", "that'll do", (stop working or doing what you're doing). If you keep your dog in the house, you can teach him most of these things while you interact with him in the house or while you are out for a walk or play with him. To teach him to "lie down" put a collar and leash on the dog, walk to him. tell him to "lie down" and gently push down on his withers until he is on the ground. Don't be too concerned about what position he is in as long as he is lying down. Give him a pat and tell him he's a good boy and then tell him "stay there", push your hand at his face and walk away a few steps still saying "say there" and pushing your hand held high and walk back to him and tell him he's a good boy. You can do these exercises as many times throughout the day as you wish, just don't do it too long at each time. (five minutes max.) If he already knows these things let me know and we'll get started on something else. Let me know where you live and then we can get you both going to some trials and get you into an organization where you can learn by doing and seeing. Good luck and get back to me ASAP......Bob

Thanks, guys, I knew you would understand.

 

The thing that I neglected to mention was how he took (and has been taking) corrections. Rather than blowing me off because "the voices in his head were yelling at him louder than I was", he's seeming to take a correction as an aid - "Whoops, that's not what she wants, let's try this" or taking the correction or redirect eagerly. This is a big change for a dog that has always been more directed by instinct (and he has many good instincts) because he seems to trust the instincts more than he respects me. Confusing? I know what I'm trying to say - he's becoming more of a team player, a job accomplisher, and less of a "this is what I want to do because I want it" kind of dog.

 

He may have just turned seven but we both seem to be making some consistent progress lately, rather than both of us being alternately frustrated by and working well with each other. I'm doing better, he's doing better, and the teamwork is doing much better. What a joy that is!

You have just been rewarded for all the determination and corrections given while working Celt. When you were taking your older dog out to do this work all the time, Celt was missing out on being trained to do this. His instincts are what will make him a super dog and should never be looked at as a negative thing just because he is not doing as he's told. As a handler and trainer it is your job to shape those instincts so they are useful to you and the dog and you have done that and you are now being rewarded for your stick-toi-it-iveness and hard work and patience. Congratulations....Bob

Hi Bob. Me again.

I have been having great success hauling my 8 sheep to the desert to work on my days off. I have been driving both the pup and the open dog for miles and have stretched my open dog's outrun up to 700 yds. I have been working on blind outruns and gaining the trust of my dogs to flank them and go for sheep even though they can't see them.

 

The majority of my points are lost on the drive. So, I'm making this my priority. I even bought a couple of panels to take to the desert with me (as soon as my hubby finds a way to weld them on to the stock trailer).

 

Both my girls (nursery and open) slice 90 degree turns. It doesn't look very good going around the panels or going around the post. I have been driving in a huge square out in the desert (like 1/8 X 1/8 mile X1/8 mile X1/8 mile.) At each turn I need a 90 degree flank. The flanks start out right and then they tend to slice it coming in to close to their sheep. If the younster does this she will "bite" strange sheep. Niether like to "give up" their sheep when driving. The pup is better than her mother. I think I know a bit more now in the training department.

 

Sometimes my open dog (who is very tense) will rush in around the post with tail in air. I need to make them understand that they need to be further off their stock on thess turns. Help?

 

Suzanne

Hi Suzanne. Good to hear you're getting out to the desert and having lots of fun working your dogs. Flank slicing is an incorrect flank and must never be tolerated. When the dog starts on his flank square and then starts to come in too close you need to give him a correction; AGGHHH or "get out of that" or whatever as soon as you see him/her coming in and off square. Then flank again in a very firm tone of voice so that he knows he's not supposed to cheat or get on the muscle. The dog knows what a square flank is and is just "popping in" to have some fun and create some problems for you. Now, if you are concerned that the dog does not know how to do a square flank, then you need to teach him what a square flank is. You need to move the whole exercise in to a closer area so that you will have better control and then as things get better move back out. Back to the basics we go. You between the sheep and the dog and you will do all kinds of flanks, short, long, slow, fast, quick etc. Don't do it for too long as I don't like to see a dog drilled but what you will do every time, and I mean every time he cuts in you will correct him in what ever manner you use, go at him and push him out. He must start off square and remain at the same distance the total length of the flank until you either stop him or walk him up. When you have him flanking well in close start your driving again, position yourself on either side, and every time you give him a flank call his name, "bob here" and flank him. He will have his head pointed in the right direction to start the flank and if he starts to cut in again, same thing, name and here and flank. Be firm and consistent as a square flank is a must in every aspect of the trial, not just shedding and penning. You have started working at big distances and sometimes we get so caught up in being able to do things at that distance that we tend to let a few things go that we shouldn't. When you start to have problems at a distance, get in closer and fix it and then move out again and make him do it right. Don't test him 'till you're pretty sure he can do it right either. As far as your older dog slicing and gripping on the turns at the post or otherwise, this is, yes, sometimes tension, but at other times you are giving her an opportunity to give the sheep a little "boost" to get their respect. Lots of dogs like to do this just to remind the sheep that they are in charge and "don't you forget it". You are the handler and don't put up with it. This is another place that a correction is needed and very quick stop so you can let her reflect on what she is doing. You really do need to get on her case when this happens as it is just straight disobedience and not necessary at all. When coming to the post there are certain types of sheep that you don't really want to try and get them too close to you, especially those that have not seen man or dog much. Try and read the sheep just to see how close to you they are comfortable and don't try and get them any closer. Sometimes the dog can rattle them also so it is necessary to read the sheep as to just how close your dog needs to be to get them around the post in an orderly fashion. Bobby Henderson once told Nancy when she was running in the Canadian Finals that she would have been much better to have an organized mess than lose the sheep trying to be perfect. At times that is true and you need to be able to judge when these times are occurring. If I haven't covered everything or you have other questions get back to me and we'll figure it out.......Good luck and have fun.......Bob