Debbie

I hear this often, the KC should mandate health testing. Should ISDS and ABCA also have to mandate health testing? Is KC mandated health testing a solution to a welfare issue as seen on pedigree dogs exposed? I have also seen some ISDS ABCA border collies with the very same disease welfare issues as seen on pedigree dogs exposed. So just trying to understand, why is KC mandated health tested is a welfare issue and does the same apply to ISDS litters? I am guessing it does, perhaps you can expand on this. Controlling imports and exports is another animal welfare issue. Controlling dog movements is also a powerful tool in controlling dog breeders and dog ownership. This is also being discussed here in Australia by the welfare folks. They want to ban all exports of dogs and cats from Australia. It is felt that it is inhumane to export a dog or cat. They also say that dogs are exported as part of puppy milling and for the dog meat trade. However the cost of airfare out of Australia per dog is huge and the AQIS paper work extensive, so I highly question this rhetoric. (Dogs can only leave Australia by air, as per normal air flights for dogs around the world) ISDS breeders export a good number of dogs every year. This is good for ISDS breeders, good for the world as we can access new bloodlines, and I think it is good for the future of ISDS dogs. Ireland is included is the export many fine ISDS sheepdogs. You think that banning dog exports from Ireland is an animal welfare issue and a good thing. You would like to see export and import of dogs controlled by governments based on the protection of dogs from health welfare issues as seen on Pedigree Dogs Exposed? This is just plain scary if you ask me.

Mark, I am very well aware of CEA CL TNS and all of the testing implications. I do not need a lesson on that. What I am trying express is the ideas being promoted in Pedigree Dogs Exposed, by the Unis and by the animal welfare groups, that there is a dire need for government legislation to dictate to breeders on health testing, sire dam selection and breeder liability, in my opinion stinks. These ideas are becoming a reality here in Australia and the UK and already exist in much of Europe. I do not think it is wonderful, I do not support government dog breeding laws and these laws will affect all dogs not just the show dog. As you point out, I do not need to test my ISDS border collies for CL, but I have to in Australia if I live in Victoria because the law says so. (BTW I tried to prove that ISDS ABCA dogs did not get CL but was unable to do that. I would be grateful for any professional opinion that states this, that can be submitted to the governments involved to get exemptions for ISDS and ABCA dogs on CL testing). Soon I may have to choose my parents using EVB's. Now here I will need a lessons. Want to show me how to lower a COI below 0.24% for the next litter and still keep the litter registered in ABCA? Or perhaps I should just go with the Uni's idea that pure bred working dogs are no better than purebred show dogs, forget ABCA registration and even forget the idea of a border collie, just have a working sheepdog mutts? Yes some lessons on these concepts is in need. I really don't like this stuff. And all because of what some show breeders might get up to? Call me selfish and uncaring. I am done trying to explain why this is so dangerous to working dogs. Massive dog legislation, jail, fines, law suits, COI controlled breeding, EVB selection processes, mandatory health testing, cross bred preferred breeding programs, mandatory insurance for inherited disease, independent commission to set breeding guidelines. To me it is crazy. I just want an ISDS ABCA border collie like I have have had for the last 20 years. Made the same way it has always been made for the last 100 years. Eileen, The law is the law in Victoria. Read the law it is there on the web page and the testing criteria is also there. I am not making this up, show me where it says it does not apply? The law in my state NSW is much bigger and more nebulous, is that good or bad? I think that is bad, at least in Victoria they name the diseases and tell you exactly what you have to do. There have been no legal actions yet in either Vic or NSW. But the law is still the law and all must obey it. Working breeders in Victoria or else where in Australia do not usually health test because it is not part of the culture. They do not know about the laws because they pay no attention to what is happening. There is no border collie club like the ABCA functions to educate their members. Kelpie council tries to stay up to date, but it is not easy. Remember that Australia is a republic, almost nothing happens on a national level, which means the laws are different in each state and dog clubs are different in each state. Makes it very hard to organize. Most border collies are not registered anyway and most breeders do not communicate with other breeders or clubs. They are people like my neighbors, who have been breeding working dogs for generations. It is just different here. For example, I only found out a few days ago, that it is now only legal for dogs to ride inside cars, inside secured crates or with a secured crash harness and they can not ride in front seats at all. I had no idea and this law had been in effect for several months and I try to stay up to date. I understand that you feel confident that you can promote and impose breeding laws on only kennel club breeders and that you will not be required to meet those same laws yourself in ABCA. Time will tell if that will happen. But in the UK and Australia the language in the existing laws and the laws currently being suggested is clear, it applies to all dogs and all breeders. Read the UK Parliament Inquiry statement from just a few days ago ( a direct result of PDE), he did not say only KC breeders and KC dogs, he said all breeders of all dogs, purebred and mix bred. It is true that in the US you have more control. But be clear that US support of dog breeding legislation and animal rights movements does have dramatic affects in other countries. Please read the Uni 10 point plan and then in your mind apply it as a law to working border collies or even to yourself and the ABCA. This is real and it is being discussed in parliaments, and could become reality in Australia and the UK in the near future. Much of the ground work has already been set up. In Australia the data banks are in place at the Uni's for the COI's, the vets in NSW are now wired into the AVA to the Uni for the EBV health data intake information to begin, as I understand it, each vet visit will be data banked by the dogs microchip number. All dogs now must be microchiped and this number is recorded on their registration with the government. This is not pretend, there has been a lot of efforts and work on this for many years. It is a well thought out plan and a totally different way of breeding dogs. Ask yourself if you would impose this 10 point plan onto ABCA breeders. http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/research/dis..._point_plan.pdf

Here is some more sensational facts. State of Victoria Australia, Animal Welfare Code of Practice for inherited disease. CEA and CL is regulated on all border collies (not just KC registered dogs). I am told TNS is due to be added on the next review. http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/L...e%20Disease.pdf Personally this law had no effect on me, I live in another state. However the vast majority of border collies in Victoria are working dogs (not in the KC) and the working border collie breeders in Victoria do not usually ( I will say almost never) screen for CEA or CL. They had no say in this law and even today many of the working border collie breeders still do not know about the law. I could say it is unfortunate that the kennel club did not mandate this testing. I could say the same thing about the Vic Sheepdog trailing register, though fair enough they are not breed club for border collies. Or I could say it is unfortunate that ABCA has not mandated CEA testing or made an official statement about CL testing for ABCA/ISDS bloodlines. Or I could say the breed clubs should stay out of it and let the animal welfare groups, Unis and the government mandate all health testing and breeding practices. Or I could and this is in fact all I do say, that the government should stay out of dog health testing and dog breeding. This is not a law about show breeders, it is not affecting only show dogs. This same sort of thing is happening in many countries. I do not think that it is sensationalism.

Australia is only different as we are where much of the Uni work is coming from that is now being used in the UK. Just wait till every morning TV show tells it's viewers purebred dogs are bad and the cross breds are recommended by the Uni and BVA as the best choice for healthy happy pets. Wait til the RSPCA sells cross breeds for more money because they are healthier than any purebreds. Won't take long for ISDS border collies will be viewed as trash. To me it does not sound that different in the UK as to here. The laws will be made, most people will and are saying no big deal or it is good as we need to control those nasty dog breeders. As you imply even if they make the laws we do not need to worry about obeying them. Finland Sweeden and several other countries have extensive dog breeding and ownership laws, along with very limiting registration rules. Most require all dogs and breeders to be registered in the kennel club. That is why you will see a few dogs at the world trail that are KC registered. They can not breed them if they are not in the Kennel club. As I said this stuff is not new. You have told me 3 times you only have desexed resuce dogs, am I supose to react to that in some way? Not eveyone wants to get their next working dog from rescue. I am glad that it has worked out for you, but rescue is not a method of maintaining the working border collie into a future of highly regulated dog breeding. But I guess that may not be the goal for everyone.

The topic of this thread is the impact and results of the Pedigree Dogs Exposed. This UK Parliamentary Inquiry and their recommendations, to regulate all dogs breeders in the UK is a direct result of that program. I do not know how it goes in the UK. In Australia when the government calls for a Parliamentary inquiry, it is because they think there is grave concern. Here, the governement will listen to the results and recommendations made by a parliamentary inquires. What the Parliament Inquiry in the UK has suggested is not strange or unusual. It had already happening in many countries in Europe. Regulating and controlling all dog breeders and attempting to regulate and control disease in dogs is not a new idea. More from the report. 'Professor Bateson said that in future he expected registration to be restricted to accredited breeders who follow tough health and welfare rules. The club has already reviewed the standards for each breed, but Professor Bateson questioned the organization's role as “judge and jury”. He favors instead a new statutory body to oversee all breeding practices. “I think regulation is the only way to do it".' This is right out of the Uni of Sydney proposal for Australian Dog Breeding, it is called the 10 point plan for dog breeders. One of the proposals is (all) dog breeding should be controlled by a panel of experts, including RSPCA, the Uni experts, animal welfare groups, the AVA, the public and others with an interest in dogs breeding. Will be intersting to see how the experts opinions on dogs breeding will affected working dogs, if this happens. Be clear, in Australia the kennel club breeders and all purebred dogs including purebred working dogs like kelpies and border collies, make up a very small percentage of dog breeders. Kennel club breeders have dropped by almost 50% over the last 20 years and now produce less than 60,000 pups per year for all breeds across the entire country, this is out of the many hundreds of thousands of pups born each year. Designer dogs are by far more popular. Cross breeds have been well promoted by the Unis research, RSPCA and even magazines and TV shows over the past 10-15 years. For example, the RSPCA places market values on their rescue dogs. They recently sold a labradoodle for $800.00, the price of a purebred border collie that day was $100.00. So in Australia, any further push against purebred dogs will likely just about end purebred dogs of any kind in this country. So the problem of show breeders and the problem of purebred dogs of any kind, has really already been severely dealt with in practical terms in Australia. However, all of the problems in pedigree dogs exposed, such as deformed bodies, inherited disease, inbreeding and uncaring breeders, also happen in the non pedigree/purebred dog breeding world, of which the majority of pups being born in Australia belong too. Pekapugs also can't breath. Sharbulls also have skin problems, Labraoodles also have HD and PRA and Pocket dogs so small they fit in one hand. To control these abusive welfare problems in dog breeding, any laws will have to be across the board and affect all breeders. Any animal rights person worth his salt know this, and knows that any action taken agaisnt the more dramatic easy target show breeders will also be taken agasint all the rest of the dog breeders.

More news from pedigreed dogs exposed, however again it will affected all dog breeders in the UK including ISDS breeders. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6974649.ece From The Times January 4, 2010 Dog breeders to be registered in attempt to reduce canine deformities A shake-up in the way that dogs are bought and sold is to be proposed by an inquiry into the future of canine breeding in Britain. Plans for a compulsory registration scheme for breeders — whether of pedigrees or crosses — has emerged in a report by Professor Sir Patrick Bateson, a leading zoologist, which aims to stamp out controversial breeding practices in which puppies are born with disease and deformities. The Times has learnt that only breeders with a registered number and who are subject to checks on their animals and premises would be allowed to sell or advertise the sale of puppies. The proposals, which are already in force in France, are an attempt to draw a line under the unscrupulous breeding of dogs for the competition ring, which was highlighted in the television documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed on BBC One 16 months ago. End. This idea is being discussed to be put in place in Australia too. Some points that have been discussed. Mention was made that all pups born would have to be microchipped and the breeders information would be recorded to that pup, all information about the dog could be traced back to the breeder for prosecution at any time during the dogs life. Only dogs owned by registered breeders could be left intact, all other dogs would have to be desexed by law. There is a lot of worry about the random 'home' inspections by the RSPCA on all breeders of all dogs (RSPCA, Uni's and government can not single out just show breeders for legal restrictions in this country. So as in the UK above, all breeders will have to be treated the same under the law). Fees in the range of several hundred dollars a year could be charged to keep your registration current and to pay for the random inspections, failing to keep your registration as a breeder current would result in mandatory desexing of your dogs. So even if you had no plans to breed a litter for several years, you would still be inspected and required to meet all the expectations each year. Many other concerns, but the primary statement expressed is that most people will not be breeding any longer, as they fear prosecution, fines and jail.

Downunder Pedigree Dogs Exposed, Christmas Day Cheer, in the holiday news paper http://www.smh.com.au/national/hip-pain-a-...91223-lder.html They are really exposing these show breeders big time for hip dysplasia! About time these show breeders took the blame for this disease and it made the news. I am pretty sure almost every ANKC dog breed can get HD too, not just the long back breeds (like border collies) they mentioned! The show border collies can get HD. So all the breeders can come under the Parliamentary Inquiry they want to have for this disease! Thank goodness working border collies never get HD, so we have nothing to worry about. Happy New Years

Just a little update on what is happening in Australia. It is my understanding that any laws brought in to combat issues of inherited disease in dog breeding, would have to apply to all breeders and all dogs being bred. The government can not single out just kennel club breeders. So every breeder in the country is starting to feel the impact of this film and the related RSPCA push against dog breeding. Some the states have already acted on this film with the assitence of the Uni of Sydney and the RSPCA to control and regulate dog breeding and it is directed at all dogs and breeders. For example in the state I live in, there are now 40 pages of regulations on dog breeding. It reads as if it were about a large puppy mill breeding businesses, but it applies to any person of any litter of pups where any pup will be sold. It covers everything from the whelping boxes to when you can feed pups, health of parents, and responsibilities of breeders to buyers. http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pd...of-practice.pdf Inherited disease is included, requiring all dogs bred to have current screening for any known inherited disease in the breed. I inquired as to what tests were required for border collies and they suggested I check with my vet. It is suggested that if legal action was brought against any breeder, that the disease in question would be researched by the prosecution to see if it occurred in the breed. They would not be supplying any lists, it was the breeders responsibility to know what diseases occur in the breed. If no exact tests were available for a particular disease, the dog should have a vet screening prior to any breeding for that disease with a written statement the dog was free of that disease. There was no answer on how clear by parentage information should be supplied to the buyer, and no information if dogs being bred to a DNA tested Normal dog had to also be tested. So far for working border collies, it is felt that Hips, Elbows, CEA, CL, TNS are required on both parents, with deafness, eye certs and a slew of other diseases all up in the air as far as prosecution would be applied towards breeders. In the works There is currently a move to impose the use of EBV for all breedings. All pedigrees of KC dogs have been data banked, so far there has been no move to acquire the pedigrees of breeds outside of the KC like the kelpies and working border collies, but it is felt this will happen. Over 200 vets in the state are now linked to the Uni and DX's made are sent to the Uni. It is suggested this information along with data collected from DNA testing will be data banked on each dog. EBV's of any planned breeding would be generated from this data bank. As I understand it, you would not be held to make or not make any breeding based on EBV results, however if something went wrong (pup with inherited disease)and you were prosecuted, the evidence of the EVB could be used to show recklessness in breeding. There is also work in progress on breeders haveing insurance coverage on breeding stock from throwing inherited disorders, this is to protect the buyers who can then claim against the breeder. No mention of the cost to breeders and it is suggested they would only insure dogs that had certain health clearances and only litters with favorable EVB scores. Working dogs are also under study at the moment, mainly focusing on welfare issues. The study has already shown that sheepdogs are often trained incorrectly, that modern positive training methods are not used, socialization and early training are often lacking. More information is due to be released soon. So at least in Australia the film has been very effective. All breeders are now under very intense scrutiny to insure and to be held responsible for inherited disease. Laws have been made with more pending. Working border collies are part of the process and all we can do is wait to see how far all this goes and how it affects the future of the working dogs. Some other related issues in the past weeks. A breeder was raided by the RSPCA for showing a dog in public that had been debarked. Her dogs were seized and held for over a week so they could document the some of the dogs were debarked which the owner admitted to freely. She is awaiting prosecution. There is move by the RSPCA to make a law that all owners must walk their dog every day for a period of time. Flyball was banned at a recent RSPCA fundraiser due to it being a animal welfare concern, dogs could choke on tennis balls. State legislation that would require all dogs be desexed unless owned by a registered breeder or was a registered dog was knocked back, but is going to be revisited. This would have made all farm bred unregistered sheepdogs to be desexed (which are the majority of working sheepdogs in this country). This same sort of law is under review in 2 other states. As I understand it this would make control of dog breeders much easier as they would all have to record their information as a registered breeder, who they are, dogs and litters and who bought their pups. All this information would all be available to the RSPCA and government. Happy Holidays.

Will he be releasing his findings on the TNS gene and the test, or at least a statement that he has found it? On something so important as this it would be nice to hear something offical from the Dr. himself. Also I believe that there is a patent on this with a lab, will he be notifying them that he is now ready to offer a DNA gene test to the public? (many of us may have blood at the lab that holds the patent and would save money if we use them). If not then is this just the same 88.00 charge for donating blood to his research project? Will the results for ISDS/ABCA dogs still say that they will need to get the DNA TNS test when and if the gene is found to receive their dogs true status? Deb Kelly

mystiqview I was the one who mentioned to you on another board that you could get a lilac by breeding a blue to a chocolate if the chocolate carries dilute. That is the answer and no amount of questioning on every board you can find will change the answer,you have been given (many times) good sites to read up on the genetic's of colour. I question you saying ....Both dogs show very good capabilities in their chosen field of obedience/agility, which is the reason behind the thought of breeding the two..... You also sent me an email not very long ago asking how to get her to go through a tunnel, if the bitch has not even learned to do a tunnel and you need advice on how to train a dog to go through a tunnel, I fail to see how you can evaluate her abilities at agility yet. You state...Generally speaking the fluffy ones just don't measure up unless they are in a show ring (not my interest either)... She was also the bitch you spoke about on yet another board stating the bitch was too shy to show in the breed ring. How that had disappointed you as this had been something you wanted to do with her. I also recall you first met me by sending an email asking to purchase a merle puppy as you wanted to breed merles and show it in breed ring. I told you I do not sell pups based on colour and do not sell pups for breed ring. Lastly you state... Even amongst the working sheep people here, dogs which lack pigment (no matter how good the parents working ability is) are frowned upon and I know of cases where they have been drowned at birth... Total bunk, the top handler/trialer in Australia in Greg Prince and he has many mostly white dogs. Guess he never seems to have a bucket handy at drowning time! Price's Snow ring a bell to you? Likely not. Deb Kelly

Thanks Denise. How often are we finding go normals? Enough so to get an idea of the frequency of go normals in the general population? Deb

Does anyone have an update on the research being done on the CEA gene and the screening test? Deb

I have never done compititon obedience...but...my daughter did for several years. Sounds to me as if she needs proofing and experince in differnt and a verity of places. My daughter would have me drive her down to Safeway Supermarket. Right in front of the main door... door opening and closing, people and shoping carts rushing by, she would practice heeling and figure eight, sits and downs, have stranges help with stand for exam. There was no shortage of distractions and she could work on any problems she had. She felt if she could do it correctly there..she could do it anywhere. It worked. Deb

I do not recommend much formal obedience for agility dogs, it leads to one sided dogs and too much handler dependence. Houston is the home of USDAA agility and there are many fine agility trainers in your area. I would search the USDAA web site and look for trainer and trials in your area. Attend the trials and talk to the trainers about what they recommend for develope and early training for agility. I think it is important to find a trainer you enjoy and trust. Look at what their other students are doing and see if this is what you aspire to. If you can not find anyone email me and I will make some recommendations of people I know from your area. Best of luck, Deb