ImWithAlice

Uh.... ehem, well, er... uh... really cantakerous horse? really green rider? fibbing? :-/ Oh, there is this sport called "Ride and Tie" where two people and one horse in each team compete in a cross country race where at some non-specific point in the race they switch who's riding and who's running. Perhaps she's wanting to prepare for that and hasn't told you about it yet? Yeah, that must be it.

Because you can FLY!!! At least on my little red mare I can. She's got a Morgan turbo trot that puts most horses following in a hand gallop, and if you don't think that's work to stay on, please come ride with me. My dogs LOVE going out for a ride even more that walks and bike rides. We can cover 10 to 15 miles in a few hours in hilly terrain and I've got happy sleeping pups on the way home in the truck. Teaching horse manners can be tricky with BCs though. My two were given the strict commandment of "Thou Shalt Not even LOOK like you want to herd a horse" and I have no problems with them with the horses in the pasture or out on the trails and they are high drive dogs. Alice's littermate didn't get as much of a firm hand from her owner and she turned into a heel biter on the trails. That dog can no longer be trusted on a ride and her owner's horses will now kick at any dog that gets near them. As others have suggested, you need PERFECT recall, and a good down on your dog. Careful with your down, however, if it's a down/stay you could get your dog trampled in traffic. What also helps is to be able to direct them by pointing to get them off of the trail, or to the side of the road if someone or something needs to pass. And a little agility training can wow your friends if you get your dog to leap up onto a stump and lie down to pose. And by all means, make sure you're in complete control of the horse before you take your dog along. You have to be able to ride AND keep an eye on your dog. And yes, some horses are dog stompers, if it turns out yours is trash the idea all together, unless you like seriously risky living for both you and the dog. Take it slow on your first rides, watch the dog carefully when you pick up speed and make sure that invisible prey drive doesn't suddenly materialize. Also, if you're riding in brush, the horse has to be pretty darned near spook proof because the dog will inevitably dash in and out of the brush, appearing and disappearing and making noises in the bush like some-kind-of-prey animal trying to find a horse to eat. If your dog is ahead of you, WATCH them. Even bright BCs can get so distracted by that interesting scent on the trail that the forget that there's 1000lbs of animal coming up on them. Which reminds me, you'll also have to get your horse used to you yelling verbal commands at your dog when you're onboard. It took my very sensitive, very reactive horse awhile before she realized I wasn't yelling at HER when I would call or command my dog. Can you tell I've done this a bit? Suddenly I feel like saddling up.

Oh! I bought Zonk It! at the same time to use on the horses and I do like it. Smells nice too, and I'm even trying it on the cows (since they stood nicely when I sprayed it on them over the fence). I guess I'm lazy with the dogs and like the once a month treatments, especially since Alice is loved by ticks.

Anyone have a GOOD experience with TriForce? I just bought some (mail order), and now I'm afraid to put it on my dogs. :-/ I chose it because it's supposed to work on Mosquitoes and repel ticks (instead of just killing them) and FrontLine + does not.

Actually, in the article the Executive Director of the Humane Society in that area states: Rea said the shooting should not have happened. She said her agency could have dispatched a euthanasia technician, food, water and kennels to the site. She also said the Humane Society has enough vehicles and volunteers with trucks and trailers to transport large amounts of animals safely. Even if some of the dogs couldn't be moved from the site because they were too wild or too sick, she said the Humane Society had the resources to safely euthanize them at the site. She said the agency has received more than 40 animals in a single day previously. It has fielded at least 30 phone calls from upset residents who read about the shooting in a local newspaper

I actually have two (resulting from a friend losing her job and moving cross country to a new job). They're fairly tame, easy keepers, pretty easy on the dog and TINY. The not quite two year old heifer is around 3' at the shoulder. From what I've read there is at least one miniaturization issue. When the "short legged" type is bred to another of the same "short legged" type they tend to have hyper dwarf-ish calves that are usually stillborn/aborted. I suppose the point is they fit into small freezers better and they appeal to people who want to produce milk for a small family and don't like goat's milk? Dunno, they say dexter beef is as some of the best there is, however. I haven't tried it. Yet.

And let's put it on all the "Off Leash Area" signs!

There's always the possibility that they are coyote/dog crossbreeds. We have tons of coyotes here, I hear them at night sometimes sounding like they're right outside my window. When Alice is out, she does a great job of keeping them away, sometime driving off more than one at a time (wish she would drive sheep that well). They are wary of humans and very afraid of the dogs. We also have a fair amount of cougars in the area. They feed of the local elk herd mostly. Bear too. Both are much rarer sightings than the coyotes. I'm thinking dog/coyote crosses because they are more likely to not fear humans or dogs. They also tend to pack more than coyotes, at least the coyotes we have out here. No matter what they are, you've got a preditor out there that doesn't show the normal fear of humans and moves in a pack. Dangerous situation.

Anyone recommend or have done Laparoscopic spays vs. "standard" spays? What are the advantages? ALSO Anyone try the New Flea/Tick control product TriForce? Any good? Any issues? Thanks in Advance!

I like the fan! I'll be looking to get one ASAP!

Ah well, maybe Alice is grounded on days when the sun threatens to appear.

I've got a nearly 5 month old bc pup and his lower canines are turning black, apparently from teh inside out. I'm not a very experience puppy owner; is it normal for their milk teeth to do this before they fall out?

Summer will be here soon and in the Great NorthWet it comes in fits and starts. Friday was 70 something and I was going after poor Alice with a clippers. Saturday it was pouring and cool. I like to do errands between doggie activites and I'm often caught out in a parking lot searching for a couple of square feet of shade to cram my car in for the 30 minutes or so I'm in the store when the weather gods determine it's time for another blast of solar radiation. I've seen folks at dog trials with those sheets of foil backed insulation. Is that the best way to go? Does it really keep your car cool? Anyone invent the solar powered-roof-top auto fan yet?

I recently heard a radio broadcast on NPR about the top shearers from Australian and New Zealand who travel the world shearing sheep. They said that they can do 300+ sheep in a day. The record was somewhere near 600. I nearly fainted just thinking about it and I've never attempted to shear a sheep!

Oh, OH this is one of my favorite rants! I have decades worth of stories, but I'll show some self control and give only two. This weekend I was heading down the freeway to a relative's funeral. I had the dog in the back, planning to house her at a cousin's during the service. I also planned to stop at a rest stop on the way to empty her, in case she didn't have a spot at the cousin's. So 'bout 50 miles in I realize I have no leash with me and I panic as the rest stop isn't an off-leash area. So I pull off, dig through the trunk and come up with 5 yards of old yellow rope. Now my dog has as good a recall as any dog and will, when commanded, walk behind me through a flock or down the road or in dog park and never leave until released, but I figure I need to set a good example. So when I finally get to the rest area and pop out of the car with the dog, and the pick-up bag, and the 5 yards of old yellow rope attached to my favorite-animal-in-the-whole-world, what do I see? Dogs everywhere off-leash. Including one that jumps out of the car, heads to the nearest grass (non-dog area, picnic area) and takes a giant dump while it's owners walk off leaving the dog and its mess behind. Why do I bother?? And last week there was the unleashed boxer that attacked a dog in our riding party as we returned to the trailer (busy parking area with lots of horse/dog traffic) and its owner said "I'm sorry, I didn't see you coming" as she was kicking it away from the other dog (my dog had been recalled and sent 20 feet behind me when this fight started). Sorry? How about leashing your animal if you don't have control of it? Or putting it in your rig? Or LEAVING IT AT HOME? Why (grumble, grumble, growl). Okay, I feel better.

Thank you! Would you happen to have any sources about Early Middle Eastern shepherding techniques? Always curious, Barbara

Anyone know of references to dogs used for herding in ancient times and outside of Europe? Specifically in Biblical times in the middle east? If not, how DID they move their sheep?

My county's shelter publishes their kill stats. They euthanize a couple of thousand dogs a year. Let's see, a million is 1000x1000. How many counties are there in the US? Yeah, some counties are no kill, but most aren't. PETA's numbers are probably high, but a couple of dogs a year from my county alone is obscene, especially with everyone and their sister breeding their dogs.

Surprised no one has responded to you. Maybe they have privately. Either way, I'll give you my very inexperienced, novice perspective. I'm quickly learning that "too much prey drive" isn't really a problem, the problem is whether or not you've got a good enough trainer to work with to teach you how to properly handle it. I'll give you our story, in case it helps. I started my dog at 5 months (too early for her, and most dogs I'm told) and she was all bite/attack/alligator. I started at a trainer who used PVC pipes to block. I did not know what I was doing at all, btw. Never saw or even heard of herding before. My pup totally ignored the PVC pipes and even angered the trainer by biting at them on occasion. I went 2 or more times a week for 5 months and in that time my pup had PVC pipes broken over her head several times (not by me, but buy the trainer). Okay, I admit I'm stupid, but it took until my dog finally "gave up" and laid down in the middle of the pen before I got that this wasn't working. I then waited until she was over a year, started again (with a different trainer) and have made good progress. Unfortunately I'm still trying to get some of that prey drive BACK. What would I do differently? 1 Get a trainer who knows Border Collies and does ISDS style competitions. 2 Use a flag or a stick with a feedback (or a plastic grocery bag works well!) to BLOCK instead of whacking her on the head with a PVC pipe. I've since learned that my dog is REALLY sensitive to the bag/flag bearing sticks waving at her. Blocking isn't easy at first for some of us, so you need a good trainer to help you with timing. 3 IF it isn't working, stop sooner and don't keep at it for 5 months (I'm SO SORRY ALICE!). Sometimes the dog just needs to grow up a bit. Sometimes you need a new/different trainer. Sometimes you need both.

This is the unfortunate "slippery slope" argument that is often heard. It goes like this "If we object to ANY pain inflicted on an animal, then pretty soon ALL pain inflicted on animals will be considered inhumane/outlawed/etc." Yes, I agree that there are some extremists that would/could believe that but 90-some-odd% of the "Animal Loving" population out there still eats meat, wears leather shoes and yells at their dog occasionally. THESE are the people that have real influence on laws and policy. If an area of the "animal industry" goes too far in IGNORING unnessary cruelty, then they will be motivated to legislate against it. The history of the Tennessee Walker show industry is a good example of this.

I'm having little trouble posting, and I'm hoping you all don't get plagued with multiple replies from me. Sorry if you do. I'd like to reply to a couple of ideas I've read in this thread and I hope I don't sound too critical, but I think this topic is a serious one for anyone with a dog. First, I have difficulties with the idea that existing leash laws are adequate to ensure dog/animal or dog/human attacks don't happen or are adequately prosecuted. I don't live in an urban area and many of the places I hike/ride are areas where there are no leash laws. The dog/horse attack I posted earlier was in a state park on a beach which is excluded from that county's leash law. If these areas were INCLUDED in leash laws, people would not be able to use their dogs hunting or ride with their dogs along side. I myself have assuredly violated some leash law or other when I used my dog to move sheep down a county road. Surely we don't want the dog catchers out after border collies working sheep on public property? The other problem I have with leash laws is that they don't work. Up here there have been two serious dog/human maulings in the last several months (both little old ladies, one in her front yard, one in her house). In both cases the dogs had escaped from their yards. There is a 'dangerous dog' law, however, and the owners are being prosecuted under that. It doesn't do squat for prevention, and that's what people who are trying for breed bans are trying for. That being said, I'm not for breed bans, because the Pit type dogs will be replaced by another "tough" dog that everyone will have to have and that breed will have to be added to the list or enforcement will be spending $$ to try to prove dog X is indeed breed Y and not a lab/border collie mix or something else it could masquarade as. I'm old enough to remember when everyone had to have a GSD to be "tough". They were replaced by the dobie, which was replaced by the rott and then the pit and "American Bulldog". All were overly bred and quite a few fell into the hands of people who shouldn't have ever had any dog. I agree that in my experience pits are more aggressive than the GSD or dobies of my youth, but if they are banned, something else will replace them, or they'll just fall out of fashion anyway and another breed with similar issues will become the rage. So I can't come up with any good ideas on prevention. The one about licensing owners of certain breeds is good except that the 'problem' breeds historically change. Still it's an idea better than an outright ban. How about we increase liability for bites? I don't mean the "it broke the skin, put a bandaid on it" bite, but the REAL "had to have stitches" on up to "loss of a body part" bite? Say 3X the actual medical costs? And a minimum amount for killing a family pet (I keep thinking about if my Akita had killed the neighbor's cat instead of mine)? Also (and here I'm going to be REALLY unpopular), I pay good money to license my animals. I'd be willing to pay a bit more if the counties would offer "good doggy citizen" classes or discounts on puppy training lessons (certified, of course). And I have one comment about statistics for those who think I'm more likely to be mauled by my slippers than by a dog. The average cat bite is more serious than the average dog bite due to the rate of infection, but cats don't chase people. More people are seriously injured by horses than they are by dogs, but those people chose to be on or around horses. What scares people isn't the statistical probabilities, it's the randomness and potential seriousness of injury from an animal we as a society allow to walk down every street and live in nearly every house. Heck, if anyone cared a whoop about statistics, no one would ever buy lottery tickets.

I feel compelled to add another post from the Pacific NorthWET. When it's cold and monsooning, I wear this stylish outfit: rain pants, muck boots, wool socks, silk underwear, goretex pants, vest, BRIGHT yellow rain slicker with a goretex Outback jacket over it and a goretex hat to top it off. If I'm on horse, substitute insulated Ariats and half chaps for the muck boots. It all works pretty well, unless it starts monsooning SIDEWAYS like it did the last arena-style trial I sorted for, then my glasses get a bit wet as the hat has a floppy brim. The layering works great if you're working/stopping/working or riding fast/slow/fast. If I have to sit around, the dog is on the slicker on my lap for extra warmth! Goretex is great and breathable, but even treated it soaks through in a couple of hours. I have no good solution for waterproof, yet breathable/workable gloves, except to carry around multiple pairs. :-/

Alright, I know I'm going to stir up a hornets' nest with this but I'd like everyone who reads this post to consider how we as a society can protect ourselves and other people from vicious dog attacks. I agree that any animal with teeth can bite (I've even heard stories where snakes have bitten after they'be been killed), but I don't want to see a world where all dogs must be on leash at all times and/or muzzled and IMHO, there ARE certain breds that are predisposed to bite/fight/be aggressive, just like there ARE certain breds that are predisposed to herd and be biddable. Here are a couple of scenerios to consider out of my own personal knowledge: A man ran with his dogs on leash on the same route every day for years (my now ex, btw). One day two pit-type dogs attacked his dogs, latching on to one, an approx. 40 lb shepherd cross. The man managed to kick one of them off, but could only dislodge the second by beating it over the head with "a rock the size of a cantalope". This man was a big, offense-line type man who could easily "sky hook" 60lb bales to the top of a hay truck. The short version of this story is that we paid $250 in vet bills for our dog, and received $40 from the biting dog's owner before he moved and left no forwarding address (he'd been living in a truck camper) on a friend's place. A woman is out riding her horse with a friend (also riding). She stops at a river to give her horse a drink. There are two people on foot and one pit-type dog. She talks the people and everything is fine until the horses drop their heads to drink. The dog attacks the horses, latching onto the first horses neck and holding. Both horses wheel in a panic, both riders land on the ground. The end result is both horses are bitten severely and then bolt miles back to the trailer. The riders are physically okay, but one is too frightened to ride in that vicinity again (not me, thankfully). The owner gave a phoney address to one of the riders and fled before the police arrived. I also owned an Akita which according to even Akita fanciers is a breed that is not reliable around dogs of its own gender. My dog had no problem with dogs of either gender and was the nicest, sweetest dog all dogs and people. She was, however, a killer of anything else smaller than her. She stayed confined at all times possible and fortunately only got loose once in over 12 years. Unfortunately, she did find my cat. If she'd killed the neighbor's cat instead, I'd have only been liable for the cost of the animal. Let's see, the average barn cat goes for what these days? Would that have been fair? I certainly would not have appreciated being told that I could not own that Akita (which I barely rescued from the pound, they really didn't want to adopt her out BECAUSE of her breed) and I don't want anyone to tell me I can't own one in the future. I want to see a better solution than breed bans, but I cannot think of one. Can anyone? Ideas? Or do we expect society to believe that dog attacks are one of the risks we all have to live with?

Thank you all for your responses. I live out between Eatonville and McKenna which is east of Olympia and south of Tacoma. I know I will eventually wind up with sheep, unless the dog suddenly vanishes. I've done a lot of reading recently about sheep diseases, etc. and I'm getting the idea that the "great deal on 10 sheep down the road at $70/each" might not be such a great deal. Frankly, I can tell a ram from a ewe from a wether, but I'm not so sure I could tell a healthy sheep from one that wasn't. I also know that I'd better get a good perimeter fence up before making a purchase. I'd love to talk to people about their setups and what they'd recommend for the first time sheep owner. BC

On any given day if you saw me with my dog you'd assume that I was the dominant one, the one who called the shots, the one in CONTROL of the relationship. I mean, I pay the bills and I give the commands and the dog does what I say, so I'm the boss, right? Well, I'm beginning to wonder about that. You see, first there was the puppy class, then the brief stint at agility... then the dog "told" me (and ya know I'm not saying she talked, but she did communicate this) that she'd like to try herding. And then, THEN there were the herding lessons, and the clinics, and the countless hours practicing, and I should mention that trip to Scotland where I dragged my friends off to a sheepfarm so I could take lessons... So now I'm considering buying sheep. It's crazy. I once "boarded" sheep for my now late sister's husband and didn't understand why anyone would want such things. But there's nothing quite like seeing a dog work stock well and now I'm a hopeless herding addict and the next step would be to purchase sheep, and I'm looking for advice on breeds and management, or for someone to talk me out of this all together. My sheepkeeping situation would be: Climate - Wet and mild, but grows grass VERY well, tends toward MUD Acreage - approx. 5 - 15 depending on how fast I can get fencing together, some shared with horses. Got any advice for fencing for both species? I currently have barbed wire in most areas and extra grazing setup with electric fencing that wouldn't hold a dead sheep. Housing - not sure yet, I'm looking at designs and wondering how many sheep I can fit into my garage or into a 8X10 stall at night Predators - coyotes and dogs Human supervision - none during the daytime in winter, I'm hoping to recruit a neighbor to put them up before dark Stock available - I'm seeing mostly hair sheep, Suffolk and Romneys for sale. I hear hairs are very attractive to coyotes, is that right? ~sigh~ Advice or the name of a good therapist would be appreciated. BC