TAC2

My sheep deserve to have their sheepiness license revoked! The world's most stupid sheep I need those flighty Cheviot sheep! We brought Lena out to work two of our sheep for the first time today. I was worried they would panic and run when Lena went for the lift, but nooooo, not my dummies. She did a nice outrun, came around behind them and the sheep...they turned around to amble over and see who the newcomer was! The look on Lena's face was priceless. Er, um...why are your sheep coming toward me and not you??? She was definitely a little rattled by their curiosity. Anyway, she got them moving with a little wearing and then stopped. I tried walk up, flanks in both directions, then woke up to the fact she was holding them against the renegade sheep's fence. Good girl, stupid me. With a little help from hubby we shooed them off the fence and Lena went to get them again. These sheep are so dumb, all they wanted to do was graze and watch the hubby who was in the stall keeping the LGD out of trouble and taking pictures. She flanked around, got closer and closer and still...no movement. Once again we shooed them off and were able to work up and down the pasture with the sheep between me and Lena --- driving and gathering side to side instead of her driving the sheep behind me. Anytime one tried to break in a different direction, Lena was right there to put it back. We finished off with her putting them in a stall (with a little assistance from grain rattled in bowl) since they just won't run from the dog if she's behind them...stupid sheep. Well done Lena. ~ Tru Picture: Outrun up to the sheep, holding sheep to fence, oblivious sheep, come by, still oblivious, closer, stupid sheep

I put never, because we never have "fights." A true dog fight is something you will absolutely know when you see it. They are going for blood. The occasional play tussle or even shift in pack order is not what I would consider a fight.

Thanks for the replies guys. It is more to utilize all of the grassy areas available. Closing the gate and hooking the electonet from pasture to pasture at the top allows the sheep to graze the drive between pastures. Electronet is also used to section off the pastures so everything gets grazed down. I figured allowing the sheep to graze the lawn areas (this area has always been farm so "lawn" is actually mixed "native" pasture grasses) and in between the fruit trees where we currently have to buy gas and mow would be much more efficient, but there is no fencing and no charger nearby. Lena is pretty calm about just watching sheep, but that was with her previous owner on dog-broke sheep --- we'll see how things go with our wool brains this afternoon.

Wow, that is quite a crew you have there! And I thought I had a lot with six!

HI again. We now have a lovely 7 year old border collie bitch named Lena to help on the farm. She isn't Open level material but has competed in N/N, is well trained for my needs and I feel blessed to have her. She has lots to teach me, and I have lots to learn about herding. I've already introduced her to our un-broke sheep and tomorrow we start working together with them. One thing I would like to do with her down the road is have her "tend" our sheep. I'm told this is the correct term for having a BC guarding and keeping the sheep together as they graze open areas, not gathering them from out in the hills, but as they did in the old days on the village green. Does anyone here know of resources or folks that teach their BCs to do this kind of work? Any suggestions would be much appreciated! ~ Tru

I grew up in a multi-dog household and have never been without at LEAST two dogs...so I really don't know what it is like to have just one The key is to never let it get started. You are right on track with not allowing the small stuff, because it never just happens out of the blue. Most people miss the "build up" signs and are shocked when the fight starts. That said, two intact females in the same household can develop a "hatred" for one another. When I was around 10 years old we had two females that could never be in the same room at the same time. It was a real PITA, but thankfully not my job to worry about. The younger one was eventually sold on to a new home.

Adorable!! Perhaps I missed it, what's his name?

With three LGD in the hundred # range, an owning bigger dogs before (GSD, Rottie) she's seems very dainty and small. But she's tough enough for our sheep! (Of course we have wee Westie too, but he thinks he's big, so we tend to forget he's not *grin* ) ~ Tru Laingcroft

I think I need to clarify a few things here before I make these last few comments. My parents were long time fanciers, exhibitors and in the end, breeders of Boston Terriers. This was in the late 50s - 70s. I did a little junior handling in the 70s and really enjoyed it. Many of my friends at the time were also the children of fanciers. I owned and showed a Dalmatian in the 80s before the 101 Dal movie remake came out, breed popularity exploded and quality declined. Breeds that don't become popular with the public seem to continue life as usual. However, that was over 20 years ago now. From everything I am reading here, things must have drastically changed and gone waaaay down hill. However, if people "inside the organization" who are trying can't effect change, then I don't know what can be done. Bemoaning the fact isn't going to help. From the limited amount I've seen, the ABCA is heading in the right direction, but it may be too little too late. Wish I had solutions for you, but I don't. Since I freely admit I know nothing about the whys, hows, and wherefores of the BC recognition (last I paid attention to AKC things, BCs were still in the misc class) I still can't grasp how the AKC or any organization could "force" breed clubs to join. At least one person, likely more, must have wanted to show BCs in conformation and earn AKC titles for marketing purposes (again that whole skewed value concept.) If agility and like sports were the motivator, then there are plenty such canine sports organizations outside of the AKC. Likewise, the UKC sponsors and promotes conformation shows and perhaps other agility type events. They just don't have the branding with John Q. Public that the AKC has. And again, this is something the public needs to be aware of, the AKC provides papers, period. It doesn't guarantee quality, working ability or anything else. Unfortunately, I think too many John Q. Publics don't much care about working ability, hunting ability or any specific breed skill set. John Q. wants a cool dog (like the one on TV), that preferably has no real doggie characteristics (sheds, poops, eats/rolls in disgusting stuff, pukes, tracks dirt in the house, needs attention, grooming, training, etc.) If everyone else wants the same one too, all the better, and for a relatively small number of folks, if it is a status "breed" with an outrageous price tag and a waiting list...like XXXXXdoodles (now there is a breed to pity...the poodle!)...i.e. mutts, WOOHOO! Since I would have much research to do before I post anymore on the subject, and I'm much more concerned with reading about herding and working with our new BC , I guess I'm done here. Feel free to carry on...

Please welcome our new farm hand...Lena. We met up with Lena's person and did a little herding with her this morning...in the rain. She has a lot to teach me, and have I got a LOT to learn...beginning with my left from my right Herding with a dog is such fun. She's a great little (38 lb) girl. Within minutes of arrival she established her place at the head of our pack (with a mere glance for the Portie) and a correction for the nosey (male) Westie. Right now she is laying under my desk, snoring, while the other two are laying to my left and right, watching her warily. Too funny. The LGD on the other hand are going to take awhile to tolerate her. They know she wants the sheep. She ignores the chickens, follows the ducks (and will probably try to herd them at some point) and isn't quite sure what the goats are. I've added a picture taken by Terry as an attachment, hopefully it can be seen.

Absolutely, I agree with this statement and this is my point and peeve. They created a market, sell to it and perpetuate it. However, Actually it is the breed club or parent club for each particular breed that determines the Standard. So the splinter group of BC breeders that sought AKC recognition in order to "win at AKC events" in this case conformation are the ones who failed the breed, not the body corporate. " The judges for these activities are AKC approved, not approved by the breed clubs. " This is not quite accurate since the judges are not selected by the AKC and certified. Breeders decide they want to become judges and are sponsored by the parent club - delegates of which do have input into how AKC sanctioned things are run. It is really quite complicated and quite beyond my ability to understand, much less explain. The corporate AKC, its board of directors, etc. cannot possibly manage every single breed they recognize and rely on the member breed clubs...and perhaps that is the root of the problem...member breed clubs, their AKC delegates and breeder members (from whom the judging pool is drawn) that are actually doing the damage. Which is my original point, but I concede that more intelligent oversight is needed. Mona: Please do not get me started on the GSD in America or you will have me ranting and frothing at the mouth We had a wonderful working bred, SV registered GSD and if you want to see what a breed organization should be, that is a good one. Each country/region is assigned a Breed Warden. This person had to be very knowledgeable about all aspects of the breed (and the ability to read/understand German too). He or she would judge each dog before it could be bred. At a minimum, the hips had to be rated "A" or in OFA "normal" or better; the dog must have attained a working title of SchI or better; if shown in conformation, must have 'V' rating or better, plus a hands on inspection by the Warden. And conformation shows in Germany are no cakewalk. Instead of gaiting round a 20' square ring for 45 seconds, those dogs were gaited at full out trot --- around a football sized stadium, for at least a mile, to demonstrate both structure and endurance - basically, soundness. Dogs that run their handlers ragged are heartily cheered, those that lag behind or show signs of tiredness are booed off the field. Each dog's pedigree is an Ahnantafel (sp?) which not only include the names and titles of the parents, grandparents, etc., but the key points of the Warden's breed inspection report on each dog; including temperament test (B rating.) Now THAT would be something for the AKC or any breed club to promote.

My solution would be fence, board on board stockade privacy, 6 feet high, along that property line

Not quite the same thing I think. The show BC shares the same ancestors in the not so distant past so they are still in actuality, the same thing even if they are developing different characteristics (Omega watch with a 18Kt solid gold band as opposed to a 10 Kt gold plated band studded with rhinestones to follow your analogy.) Where they go over time may or may not diverge further (I suspect it will if they follow the path of other breeds.) Unfortunately, grumbling about it will do nothing to change it. That horse has already left the barn. A more apt analogy would be Omega makes fine watches...a subsidiary opens overseas and its management hires cheap labor then begins substituting cheaper but flashier parts. Down the road, they are no longer the same classic quality product, even though they share the same label. Savvy consumers will buy continue to buy the better product. BTW, my point is not that working lines and show lines are the same...just that it depends on your point of view. The AKC really has nothing to do with it other than some breeders chose to go that route for whatever reason, with a detrimental effect on the (whole) breed image if not the actual quality of the dogs maintaining original "type." Education is the best defense, and it's up to the current ABCA membership, to determine how far to go. Do they keep the working BC a "secret" to protect it or get out the facts and risk everyone and his uncle wanting the wonderful b/w herding dog, which could have the same end result as the show breedings are currently experiencing --- fad purchaser demand.

They look like mosquito bites to me, but if she's not scratching at them, I'm stumped. You could take her to the vet if concerned, but if they aren't bothering her, she's not running fever, having any symptoms of distress or allergic reaction, then it's probably just a minor bite or irritation of some kind. If the spots start showing signs of necrosis (black and blue or black) then get her to the vet ASAP --- that likely would be spider bites.

Sorry, had to go pick up the child from the football game. Just a few more comments to add: "You could tell at a glance that they were no longer herd dogs. Too heavy, too fluffy, too...dull." Devil's advocate here, but this is kind of judging the book by its cover isn't it? Beauty judging in reverse? What if those dogs lost a little weight, so what about the hair, and "sparked" when they saw a sheep? "On the other hand someone who thinks they want a working dog and who really should have a couch potato is probably better off with a show bred dog." --- Someone like that is better off with no dog at all, and certainly no Border Collie." 'Fraid we'll just have to disagree on this. Many sedentary owners and quiet, mellow dogs happily co-exist. "So the only thing they guarantee is the thing with no value" --- EXACTLY...its only value is to the person that wants proof that both parents were the same breed. "In return, they do much harm - and that is a defense?" Okay, I'll bite, what does the AKC...NOT the breeders, exhibitors, or others who buy their services do, specifically, that is harmful? Provide a forum for their breeders to show off their breeding stock or owners to play with agility, conformation, rally or "herding" (yes I know that is laughable to this group)? The USBCHA does the same thing with herding trials. Register pedigrees and provide a piece of paper, ABCA does the same thing. Lobby for canine legislation? Well you would have me there, that is definitely a double edged sword. Provide, through its charitable health foundation, funding for University research on canine diseases, genetic tests and someday, hopefully cures? Sorry, but I don't see that as a bad thing, and the money from registration and competition fees pays for it. What else? Now back to where I left off... I repeat (it feels like ad nauseum) the AKC is a business entity, like AT&T. They sell/promote their registry - if there are bad breeders, it isn't the AKC doing it anymore than AT&T is promoting or causing telemarketers to call and annoy you at dinner time. They are selling a service/product...what the buyer does is at their own discretion. I'm not making a judgment as to good or bad, just that it is what it is, like it or not. Show breeders get all bent out of shape because the AKC still registers pet store pups and others get upset because they "pander" to show breeders. Hello... THE AKC IS IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY AND THEY DO IT BY REGISTERING DOGS. I'm not advocating anyone go out and buy an AKC dog or suddenly fall in love with the organization. Just recognize that it is what it is and don't expect more from it. The fact remains however, that like it or not, some BC folks wanted AKC recognition, the deal is done and cannot (by all means correct me if I'm wrong) be undone. You cannot change the ancestors of those dogs...they are Border Collies, registered under the ABCA and transferred/dual enrolled by the AKC at acceptance. They are what they are. Whatever they become will not change that. However, the beauty with the BC breed is that the ABCA did not fold itself up and roll into the AKC BC club. It has taken steps to maintain the integrity of the working (true, original, call it what you will) Border Collie and will not register those that pursue AKC titles or breed to a non-functional standard. So I still don't get why there is this animosity toward AKC other than many people didn't want that recognition in the first place...and again...it's spilt milk. Why get your knickers in a twist over what cannot be changed? Given that there is sufficient genetic diversity, breeders that care enough to maintain it and an organization/registry (ABCA) that supports that goal, I have yet to see a persuasive reason for the negativity. Couldn't the negativity be channeled into positive things?

Actually I don't assume breeding for work is contradictory I thought that was clear here: "Having a dog (or sheep, goat, horse, pig, etc.) as a pet is not wrong either, as long as the animal's well being, both mental and physical, are served. " Obviously you met the physical and mental needs of your particular working bred pet dog in your own way. Also here: "On the other hand someone who thinks they want a working dog and who really should have a couch potato is probably better off with a show bred dog." The important part of this statement is someone thinks they do, when they REALLY don't. A working dog with proper drive is not for everyone. This is a BC board, so I do assume everyone here admires the qualities of the BC. I was referring to the people who see a dog at a trial, think they're pretty and smart and want one just like it when they cannot or will not provide proper care/conditions/training. And training does not necessarily mean herding though anyone who watches one of these dogs work cannot doubt the joy they find in it. People that see one at a show and contact the show breeder are more likely (though maybe not) getting the type of dog they probably need. Does that make sense? I probably didn't make my intentions as clear as I thought. The post was entitled in defense of the AKC. The AKC is a registry, not a breeder. Judges are breeders, breeders are breeders and the responsibility for selecting, awarding and breeding the dogs that they do rests solely with them. That is my biggest peeve with public perception of the AKC (though the AKC has fostered it) is that those registration papers somehow convey all kinds of wonderful things beyond a simple piece of paper that says daddy is registered with us, mommy is registered with us, the grandparents are registered with us so you have a "purebred" registered dog. Within those parameters working or show doesn't matter. The AKC is not guaranteeing quality, working ability or even conformation....just pedigree.

As a newbie here I realize I'm going out on a limb here but I'd like to share my opinion on the AKC debate anyway. First a perspective on the AKC. The AKC was founded by a group of "sportsmen," probably affluent, at the turn of the 19th century to compare their best dogs for bragging rights. Another club, the UKC (United Kennel Club) was also founded around the same time for the same reasons. While the UKC is still in existence and supports many activities like the AKC, the AKC became the pre-eminent "brand" for the purebred dog...because it is FIRST and foremost a BUSINESS and its product is its registry. The shows, trials, titles, magazines, philanthropic and lobbying activities are all "value added products." The AKC was incorporated in the State of New York on May 19, 1908. Its mission statement (as shown on the current website): "The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership." Its stated objective: Advance the study, breeding, exhibiting, running and maintenance of purebred dogs. They are the first to say that the actual breeding, buying and selling are the provinces of the individuals, and they are strictly hands off (for liability issues I'm sure.) Now, taken in the context of history, the AKC and UKC were founded at a time in America when the Industrial Revolution was changing the structure of society and allowing the growth of the middle class. Innovation and mechanization gave these people more affluence and free time. We continue this trend today with new technologies, though I would argue that we don't have more free time because of it. Mechanization began the decline of animal labor on the farm (John Deere crated the first steel plow in 1837.) "The Iron Horse" (railways) and industrial jobs were moving the population from rural farms to urban centers and the advent of refrigeration meant produce could travel further distances and support more people in the cities (first refrigerated rail car was built in 1867 by Parker Earle) The Gold Rush hit in 1848/9 and the transcontinental railway was completed in 1869. During this same period, the upper classes, artists and naturalists (like John Muir) were exploring and manipulating nature and developing retreats in places like the Adirondacks and Jersey Shore. The style to become known as Art Nouveau "modernized" and conceptualized natural form in art and decoration. Many recreational activities like baseball (1871) and the Miss America pageant (1921) became national pastimes. Is it really so strange then that people with time and money on their hands began to manipulate the dog to create fashionable breeds and then show them off in "dog shows" a.k.a canine beauty pageants? To be fair, some of the early affluent fanciers managed to "save" breeds that would otherwise have been lost due to lessening need. Unfortunately this desire for form over function has become the absurdity it is today in far too many breeds. The show structure is probably the root of the problem; a standard is only as good as its interpretation. Each judge is a breeder first. This is as true of sheep, goats, horses, cattle, etc. as it is of dogs. Each breeder, owner or judge holds his or her own mental image of the ideal animal. It's human nature. Even working border collies appear to have different but categorically identifiable outlines or styles to their work. Some are fast, others slow and steady, those work low to the ground while another is upright, one is better for cattle, etc. I'm sure there are several people on this board that can identify bloodlines merely by watching a dog work. I don't believe it is right to manipulate a breed, dog or otherwise, to the detriment of its health or sanity to attain someone's ideal of beauty, any more than it is right to judge someone (and award scholarships, contracts, etc.) based upon looks as in the Miss America type pageants; but there are many who are passionate about it. Since this is America, they are free to do so as long as no civil or criminal laws (animal cruelty) are violated. If a business (AKC) sees or creates a market for its product, is it wrong to sell it? No. Do you have to buy it? No. Some dogs have never been meant to be more than a pocket pet and there is nothing wrong with that unless it creates a detrimental anomaly of structure or temperament. I also don't have any problems with showing per se. Though it doesn't appear to be, it is actually hard work, can be lots of fun and there used to be many nice folks who participate. It is rare that the handlers in Group or BIS at Westminster are owners, those are the professionals handling dogs sometimes owned by celebrities (Bill Cosby, Martha Stewart, etc.) And the sport seems to be heading to the pros only. Having a dog (or sheep, goat, horse, pig, etc.) as a pet is not wrong either, as long as the animal's well being, both mental and physical, are served. That said, I personally don't like working dog breeds that have been turned into brainless "deformed" objects, but I've learned from GSDs, that I can't change the opinions of so many. Even though working dogs are, in my opinion, much better than their beauty queen cousins, the "show folks" are as passionate about their way of doing things as the working breeders are about theirs. Realistically, working breeders have as much chance of convincing show or sport breeders to "see the light" as show or sport breeders have of convincing working breeders to see things their way. Ain't likely to happen except in a very few instances. So I take my purchasing power elsewhere and share my reasoning when asked. Thankfully, there seem to be many folks dedicated to preserving the working qualities and original "type" for these breeds. If the Border Collie breed must split into working and show lines (with sport somewhere in between?), and as long sufficient genetic diversity is carefully maintained within the working lines there should be no harm. And yes, this imposes a significant duty on working breeders. Do working breeders really want their working bred dogs to end in homes where they are confined alone all day, never to see livestock or use their gifts productively? Wouldn't the show bred pet with no drive other than to seek the most comfy lap be happier there? I don't believe anyone truly in need of a working dog, is going to be duped into purchasing a show or sport dog. On the other hand someone who thinks they want a working dog and who really should have a couch potato is probably better off with a show bred dog. The dog would be happier and fewer would end in rescue. The sad fact is there are more pet/sport/show homes available these days than farms or hobby farms for the herding dogs. BTW, I am NOT advocating breeding BCs for show or pet homes, but if they are out there already, I see no harm in placing them properly. Educate folks who ask certainly, but I'm not the kind of person to see a point in beating ones head against a brick wall trying to convince the unconvince-able. Okay, dissertation and soap-box completed, deep breath...bracing myself for responses...

Unless BCs have really soft dentin or teeth, the sterilized bones and nylabones won't hurt them. We've used both for a number of years and had less problems than with the rawhide. Chewing nylabones shaves off tiny bits like sawdust shavings in a wood shop, which passes harmlessly through the digestive system --- doesn't disolve. Of course you need to watch the size of the nylabone to make sure it doesn't get to the point where they can swallow it whole. Our guys particularly like the wishbone shape.

I like the undercoat rake too, especially now that there is one with "floating pins" The pins flex in the handle to follow the contours of the dog. They can be found at Jeffers Pet supply online for $3.95 or $4.95

Just a quick and brief run down of puppy development between five and nine weeks: Week five, start weaning with soft mushy foods (baby cereal, kibble pureed with goats milk); dominance order begins Week six, starting soft foods moistened, start giving pups individual attention, reducing bitch's feed to dry up milk this week. Week seven, complete weaning, curiosity starts, hearing and visual capability completely developed Week eight, first fear period starts, start recognizing name Week nine, canine hierarchy develops, improved motor skills, start focusing on people over other puppies, time to separate litter mates, able to begin housetraining Can be shipped (by air) at 10 weeks. I suspect a lot of breeders let pups go at 6 weeks due to laziness. Preparing puppy feeds twice a day, keeping mom apart, keeping pups contained and/or out of trouble, providing individualized attention and most of all, cleaning up after the litter makes them want the dogs out the door. Raising a litter is fairly easy while the bitch is doing all the feeding and cleanup, but it quickly gets harder and more expensive when the human has to do the job.

Oh, that's nothing! Our Portie would have had that bed in shreds and the plastic bag into confetti! And all in under 30 seconds BTW - love the stenciling on the wood floors, very pretty.

This will be my first purebred working BC. I did have a BC terrier cross I rescued way back in my 20s We have lots of good folks in Virginia and I'm 1/3 of the way through Vergil Holland's Herding Dogs Progressive Training book. The dog is trained and I believe she was even trialed at N/N; however, she is "sticky" (is that the correct term when the dog gets mesmerized by the sheep and slow to respond to commands?) That's not a real problem here since we have small acreage, small pastures and most of the work will be close at hand so I should be able to snap her out of it pretty easily. I've seen brief video of her working sheep and she keeps good distance, the sheep remain calm and she does the type of work I need here on the farm. Things may be different under my inexperienced handling and I certainly expect to make mistakes, but all in all it should be a good situation. Will find out more when we actually get together...hence the fingers crossed! ~ Tru

We may have found a BC for our little farm! As soon as her owner and I can coordinate schedules to see if this little lady and I can work sheep together, the DH and I will hopefully have a new farm hand. She is six years old and appears to be a solid and calm working dog, perfect for the general farm chores we need her to do. Hopefully I'll be posting good news and pictures soon! ~ Tru Laingcroft

I don't know if this will help but I'll offer the thought anyway. We had a horse that would bolt his feed and we were always worried about choke. To slow him down we put some big rocks in his bowl that he had to move around to eat. Worked really well. Could you try getting some tennis ball sized river rock (cleaned of course) and put them in her drinking bowl so she can't get her face down in there to gulp? If she typically drinks from creeks, puddles, etc. she shouldn't turn her nose up at it.

I like the name "Gillie" A gillie is a young male retainer of a Clan chief or Laird. Others: Angus Brendan Douglas Charlie (as in Bonnie Prince) Prince Finn Sean (Shawn) Fraser Tam Tavish Keegan