juliepoudrier

I find it odd that they'd say it was too late, unless the cut was too wide to stitch together. Generally even with old wounds, given an appropriate amount of skin to be able to draw the edges together, the vet could cut away the old tissue to expose new tissue and then stitch that. It's possible the cut in your dog's foot was too wide/deep to do that with. Have you asked your vet this question? S/he would be the best one to answer, having seen the actual injury. J.

I think there's a lot more mechanical training out there than some may think. You can find examples on YouTube and from well-known handlers. One example: the dog is fetching to the handler in a training situation and a sheep breaks off to one side and the dog does nothing until the handler gives it a flank whistle to cover. If I were charitable, I'd say the handler is just quicker to handle the situation than the dog was, but I would want the dog to automatically cover without me having to tell it to do so and I think the dog has been taught to wait for instruction from the handler (deliberately or not <-- this latter being perhaps the result of a handler pushing the dog to a certain trial level as quickly as possible and so taking away the dog's initiative in order to control the situation). Another example that I see a lot at set out is the dog who gets to the top and then waits to be told what to do. The dog literally leans around the sheep to look down the field, waiting for a command from the handler. The gather should be natural in these dogs; no dog should stop at the top and wait to be told what to do. For me, this is another example of a likely mechanically trained dog. That's just a couple of examples, but I think they illustrate dogs that have been trained mechanically. The dog no longer easily thinks or reacts for itself but instead waits for the handler to tell it what to do. I don't think this is only the province of the AKC/arena trial world. I've worked with too many dogs who have been trained that way to believe that. J.

We generally take weaned lambs and break them (using fully trained dogs) to be our training sheep for the year. The problems with lambs by themselves is they are leaderless and so are reactive and silly. If you put just one older sheep with them, they will follow that sheep (in general; you'll still get some lamb silliness but not to the point of killing themselves running into fences and the like). It's actually a very easy way to dog break them. Ours get used to being worked by dogs early on because we need to be able to move their moms. The dogs pretty much will ignore the lambs that come up to them out of curiosity, but as time goes on and the lambs get some age on them (usually around a month old or so) the dogs begin to treat them more like sheep. Individual ewes vary in their protectiveness or aggression toward dogs. I used to have a Scottish blackface ewe that would cross an entire field to go after a dog when she had a lamb at her side. Some of my more docile sheep will just turn and go no matter what, and then there's the entire spectrum in between. We have a tunis ewe right now who if the dog pushes in too close is going to stand and fight. But if the dog bumps her bubble then stops, she will turn and walk off with her lambs. This is where knowing your sheep, or being able to read them, can be invaluable. You can get ewes and their lambs moved without setting up big fights. I was able to move that Tunis ewe even with one of my youngsters simply by strategically asking her up and lying her down at the right moments so that the ewe never felt a need to challenge her. I have also found that breed characteristics can affect how soon, if ever, lambs will become less flighty. Although working lambs alone can be a good challenge for a more experienced dog, I try to keep their stress to a minimum, so if the lambs are running and breaking a lot, I will usually try to find an older adult to put in with them. It reduces stress that is inherent with weaning and also makes for fewer problems when dog breaking the lambs away from their mamas. Jovi, The sheep being used for the clinic this weekend will be last year's lambs (now yearlings). Since we don't breed in their first season, the lambs earn their keep by being worked by dogs. They will be mixed in with this year's weaned lambs to become the working flock for this year. In the fall, last year's lambs (now 18 months old) will be pulled out for breeding and the lambs, which will be roughly 6 months old and pretty used to being worked by dogs, though still rather lamblike, will be the training flock through breeding and lambing next spring. It's an easy way to have a new supply of fresh sheep. We keep a small group of goats for starting the very beginner dogs. J.

Lawgirl, Again, I am talking about working dogs in the United States, not Australia. The situation could be very different in your country. But the OP is here in the U.S. and said she was looking for an ee red working dog here. I don't think she'll find one. Here in the U.S., at least at the trials I've been to, I have not seen an ee red dog, not at any level, from novice to open. I'm referring to USBCHA type trials. I imagine you could see them at AKC trials since the color is selected for by breeders of KC type dogs. But I and most other people who raise stock and work dogs don't consider conformation dogs to be working bred. Not now. Not ever.

Tommy, FWIW, merles don't just "pop up." Merle is dominant, so if there's a gene for merle the dog would be merle. Red (liver) and Australian red are both recessive and so could pop up, skipping generations. And I went back and looked at the BC Museum page on Australian red border collies. I think there were two dogs on there that were said to work, a distinct minority, and I don't think either was known to be purebred. Most of the dogs pictured were in fact from Australia (with a couple from the UK), and many of the others were found or shelter dogs of unknown heritage. I don't think anything on that page serves to dispute my comments about ee reds not being found in the working dog population in the U.S. J.

I assumed we were talking about the US, since the OP mentioned moving to Idaho and looking for an ee red dog. She's unlikely to find an ee red working dog here in the states. J.

My two cents: whenever one tells a story they should consider the message that might be received by the reader. Maybe anyone who reads Alfreda's story and thinks, "Hey, I bet Spot could do that too, the next time I run into stock on the trail," will think twice about that idea after reading some of the subsequent warnings posted before the thread descended into (unwarranted) nastiness. J.

You'll find the color among breeders of conformation dogs and some sport bred dogs. I've never seen a truly working bred dog (that is, both parents actually working stock at some advanced level, not including AKC trials) in ee red. That's not to say they don't exist, but I'd be surprised to find any. J.

If you're willing to mail order, Chewy carries Solid Gold's version of tripe, and there are number of canned dog foods that are tripe mixed with something else (apparently because some people just can't take the smell of tripe). The Solid Gold version isn't as tripe-y as the Green Cow tripe I used to get, but it still smells like tripe and the dogs love it. J.

I agree that at her age, palliative care may be your best course of action. I made that choice with my Willow and months later her (mast cell) cancer went into remission and she lived nearly another three years (she was 13 at the time). Cherish the time you have now and make it the best you can for the both of you. J.

Prayers that it's nothing serious! J.

Mine sleep inside for various reasons: no exposure to nighttime roamers (pets and wildlife), minimize exposure to mosquitoes (no sense in really putting heartworm preventives to the test), unable to disturb the neighbors if they get a wild hair and bark, bark, bark in the middle of the night. I teach all of mine to spend time in a crate quietly. There are times when we travel that they needed to be crated (or in a hotel room) and they just aren't allowed to be noisy because of the potential to disturb people. It's possible that he's learned that if he whines he'll be let out and is taking full advantage of that fact. Personally I'd retrain him to the crate (7-8 hours of quiet). If he's used to being out and being able to eliminate whenever he chooses, then he might well need to go to the bathroom because he's never been required to learn to hold it. J.

I think it's safe to say that if one is concerned about one's pet, the best advice is to take it to the vet for a full checkup. More safe vs less safe isn't the issue I was addressing; for me being able to get something OTC often does make life a bit easier with my crazy schedule, but of course I used Pepcid on the advice of my vet. I don't think anyone is arguing that Kit *isn't* feeling nausea, but, for example, a friend had a dog who wouldn't eat and the vet was hesitant to use anti-nausea meds. My friend resorted to B vitamins (injection, not sure if it was B12 or B complex) to try to improve the appetite and it worked quite well. This was before IGS was widely discussed and I don't think the dog was ever tested, but it is an anecdotal example of one where the first choice might not have been the right choice. Pepcid has worked for two of my elderly dogs. YMMV. J.

Try 10 mg of pepcid. Often even adding dinner (I've traditionally fed my dogs once a day, in the morning), I've found that my oldsters (except Twist; if she ever stops being interested in food, I'm in serious trouble), had better appetites if I gave them something to eat in the evening before bed and gave them pepcid. I agree with Maralynn on trying that before jumping straight to the appetite stimulants, especially if a little acid control is all she might need. J.

I'm with Liz on this one, depends on the day and the season. Yesterday was rather busy. I started out early checking and worming my pregnant ewes, which required a dog to bring them up to a shelter (I don't have a handling system, so the dogs have always just held them in a corner or building or whatever we had handy) and hold them there while I checked, wormed, and marked. Then we went out in the pasture to catch the new mamas (the wool sheep really do tend to take their lambs off and resist moving with the rest of the flock and rather than set up a fight I just go to them) and check/worm them, which required Pip to hold the single ewe to me while I did what I needed to do. Then I got a call from the farm owner asking if I could bring the hair flock in, along with all the lambs, to check the ram, who needed worming. Again we had to gather moms and babies, get them into an enclosed shelter (carefully so as not to panic the ewes and cause them to trample the lambs), use the dogs (Pip and Lark) to hold them in place (that is, to push them into a smaller space within the larger space, again being careful not to put too much pressure to cause the ewes to panic and trample lambs, but enough to keep them from breaking past me) while I went through and found what needed to be treated and did that. In the process we noted a weak lamb, but with the dog pressure in the shelter we couldn't determine who was mom, so I let the flock back out and Pip, Lark and I held them in an area of the field (i.e., not in the back of the field where we got them from) until they relaxed enough for mom and twins to rejoin. Once I could determine who was mom, we sorted her off in the field (fun, especially with lambs involved, but certainly excellent work for a fully trained dog) and then brought her and her lambs into a small paddock in the barnyard where we could keep an eye on them (mom has only half an udder and was supposed to have been culled, but was missed last year). Lark held the pressure to keep her from bolting in the direction of a strong draw while Pip jollied her and her lambs along into the barnyard. After that, I took a young dog to move sheep around in another pasture (moving the tunis ewes and their lambs so we could use the space for dog training) and putting the goats up so they could be used for the most junior trainee (Corbie). Note that in this case switching dogs wasn't because one dog couldn't keep going but rather because Birdie needs the practical work. I wouldn't overface her with the entire lamb/ewe flocks, but she could move the tunis in a smaller space (with my help because there's one very aggressive mom in that group). I then got Pip and moved the lamb flock over so we could use them for training the youngsters. After we were done working youngsters, Birdie got to move the lambs back over to their pasture and put everything back where it belonged in the pasture/arena areas where we were working youngsters. There was a bit of a break (dinner), and then Pip and Lark got to hold sheep off feed bunks for the nightly feeding. Today, we're not doing much, except we will move the sheep off the feed bunks at feeding time. In April, we will have days of doing demos that can last from half a day to all day. The dogs have to perform well (i.e., not cause wrecks and make it all look effortless) and at one of those demos the sheep won't have seen any dogs since we dog broke them a year ago before that demo. The ewes and ram should remember being worked by dogs, but the lambs will have to learn. Come May and the Bluegrass, Pip and Lark will split the 12-14+ hour days that are the set out on the novice field. Last year we averaged 120 runs per day. That's actually much harder mentally on the dogs than a day of gathering flocks, etc., because they have to be so careful/perfect with each run so that the competitors all have a fair and even set out. And we'll do it for four days, no matter the weather. The dogs are definitely tired by day four, but I am probably more worn out than they are. Then there are days in the summer when there's really no work to do. The sheep are on pasture, we're not feeding, the lambs are growing, and we all get to relax. What's so amazing to me about these dogs is that they can adjust to what we need from them when we need it. J.

Well, let's see. I have not lost a single border collie before 15 years of age. I had a border collie x aussie mix who lived past his 17th birthday. Willow, my first border collie (a rescue) lived to less than one month shy of her 16th birthday. She had what was assumed to be mitral valve disease--had a grade 5 heart murmur for a number of years. When I had to have her put to sleep, I believe the issue was that her heart just could no longer compensate (we were at the Bluegrass so did not see her regular vet at the time). She was also a mast cell cancer survivor, treated between the ages of 12 and 13, stopped treating at 13 because of problems caused by chemo, and went into remission several months later (at 13). Boy was 15 1/2; Jill was 3 months shy of 16. Farleigh was 15 1/2 (pts due to an inoperable tumor in his mouth); Kat was 15 1/2. My oldest dog Twist is now 14 1/2. Her biggest health issue is spondylosis/arthritis. Over the years, I have changed vaccine protocols. Pretty early on I went to a puppy shots, then once every three years protocol (rabies as required by law). By the time the dog reached age 10, I stopped vaccinating for anything but rabies. This was the protocol I followed for Willow and maybe a couple of the others. With my younger dogs (Lark, 10, and Pip and Phoebe, 9 1/2), they got a 3-way puppy vaccine (three doses, with the last dose at 16 weeks) a booster at one year and then nothing after that, except rabies as required by law. I want to point out that the three-year protocol isn't what it is because the vaccines are "good for three years" but rather that 3 years is the accepted agreed-upon interval that veterinarians recommend. I believe vaccine efficacy has been tested out as far as 7 years, but don't have the time or inclination to look for the data right now. I am following the same protocol with my youngsters (ages almost 3, 17 months, 17 months, and almost a year). I never really fed grocery store brands (except Purina One to Willow and Kat when they were quite aged, because it was one food that they would readily eat, and by age 14+ it's unlikely their diet is what would kill them). Individual dogs may have been fed the super premium foods, but generally my dogs have been fed mainly on Diamond, with other foods rotated in (Canidae, Wellness, etc.). I always add toppers (premium canned now but grocery store canned in the past), cottage cheese, yogurt, etc., and fresh foods like eggs. Also raw or cooked meat as available, including my own sheep and chickens. Raw meaty bones on a fairly regular basis. My dogs are working dogs and so are kept lean and fit. Most of them are related, but Boy, Willow, Kat, and Farleigh were not related to the others. So I'd say it's not just genetics, not just vaccination protocol, and not just diet. There are probably any number of factors that contribute to longevity, and I've been blessed to have long-lived dogs. J.

I'm not getting here often lately, but I think "double dilute" is a misnomer. Red is NOT a dilution of black, it's the ABSENCE of black (bb vs BB), which allows the underlying red to show through. So a red dog is not black (or blue); it's red (or chocolate/liver, depending on the terminology you use). The dd on a different locus dilutes the base color. A black dog becomes blue/slate, and a red dog becomes lilac. But a lilac is NOT both red and blue. If the dog is red, it doesn't carry black and since blue is the dilution of black, a lilac dog cannot be blue, period. J.

Do you have any ethnic markets near you? Often you can find things there that you won't find in the regular grocery store. If I'm shopping for the dogs at a regular grocery store (and I don't feed raw; they just occasionally get raw meaty bones or other treats), I get ribs (I just separate them with a knife--no spine attached), pork neck bones, sometimes turkey necks. If I'm traveling and know I'm going past a particular specialty pet store that carries things like organic duck necks, I'll plan to stop and make a purchase. And then of course whenever I have any sheep butchered, I always have the butcher save the organs and bones for the dogs. J.

I think by Geonni's definition, very few of us would have working stockdogs. I don't make a living off my livestock either, but they also must pay for themselves and I do actively market meat and am trying to do the same with fleeces. Frankly, I wouldn't try to raise sheep without a good dog (or three). I think it was Bill Fosher who once said he did the math and in order to begin to make a living off sheep in his area (the northeast) you'd have to be able to run at least 200 ewes. We have half that on the farm. We could possibly run that many, but then we wouldn't be good stewards of the land in the way we want to be (that is, by not overstocking and then having to supplement to make up for the lack of forage). Shades of grey, indeed. J.

You have so many great memories of her. Thanks for sharing her with the rest of us over the years. I'm sure she and Bear are having a grand time together. Godspeed Wick. J.

I guess I don't quite understand how one compartmentalizes to the point of arguing it's okay to brace the ears in one breed but not another. It's antithetical to the whole KC culture of supposedly breeding the best to the best to produce the best. Apparently despite all that lip service they still need to physically alter them.... J.

Wonderful idea. It's always frustrating to try to do research and run into paywall after paywall. J.

I have two airplane-eared dogs in my formerly all-prick-eared pack. I admit that I will always prefer prick eared, but honestly I can't imagine going to the trouble of changing something so arbitrarily because of what *I* like with respect to looks. There's so much more to my dogs than their appearance. Kingfisher, I love naturally tipped ears too (I had hoped my airplane eared male would get his mother's high tipped ears), but the fake ones are obviously fake and I have never understood the appeal. As I've said in the past, the stated mission of the KC types is to choose breeding stock that can produce offspring that match the desired traits. What does it say about one's ideals and the real value placed on them when you then proceed to choose a trait that can't easily be reproduced through genetics and then go ahead and create it artificially? Boggles the mind.... J.

^^Yes, and one can search through various rating sites to see where companies, nonprofits, charities, etc., rate when it comes to ethical standards, how they money they raise is used, etc. There are lots of resources available to help people live more ethical lives--it just takes research, and sometimes a lot. For example, I had an email recently from the Center for Biodiversity. I did some research on them to see how they spend charitable dollars, what their mission statement is, how they seem to follow their creed or advocate for or promote the work they claim to do/support. Only after doing all my research (and even checking the reporting organizations to make sure that they don't have their own agenda) do I decide if an organization deserves MY support or allegiance. J.

Interesting reading through this very old thread and noting that we are still making the same arguments nearly a decade later (and for many years before this thread was started too)... J.