juliepoudrier

On 10/9/2018 at 11:23 AM, DSG said:

An example would be if the sire was a nipper.  If your dog nips, it won't be productive to know the father nipped.  We deal with what the dog is displaying and modify techniques accordingly.  I don't know what could be done with the knowledge that dad nipped.  Interesting to know but not helpful. [Snip]

I think it's easy to put more weight on a dog's history than is reasonably necessary. 

Just a bit of a quibble with this. I train stock dogs, and although I train the dog in front of me and adjust my methods to the individual, I also use my knowledge of an individual dog's bloodlines to inform myself of behaviors to be aware of, to not exacerbate, to be prepared to mitigate. For example, the first border collie I raised from puppyhood and trained to work was a naturally wide running dog. I was a novice handler/trainer when I started her and I made mistakes as all newbies do. I probably could have mitigated the wide running through training so that although she had the tendency I would have had the means to correct it on the fly, so to speak, as needed. As it was I had to live with my mistake and work around the tendency (which became habit) to run wide. Later I started two of her pups. The joke was that they started as "bowling balls with alligator teeth"--straight up the middle, no wide outrun in sight. But I knew their mother well and over time had seen lots of close relatives, so I knew what the genetics created, and that was a tendency to run wide (along with a bunch of other things, but I'll leave those off for simplicity). Many trainers would automatically push out/widen a too-tight youngster, but knowing what I knew about the genetics, the family tendencies, I chose to let it go and as the youngsters gained experience the bowling ball stopped and the normal outruns developed. Then, right at age 3, BOTH of those youngsters started to kick really wide when leaving my feet to go gather stock. Having more experience than I had with their mother, I was ready to train a call in so that I could manage the tendency. I realize that this discussion is about pet dogs, but just wanted to point out that at least when training for the purpose for which a breed was created one absolutely wants to consider the genetic heritage that comes along with the pup or dog you're training because knowing what the dog might be inclined to do in various situations can save a lot of headaches and training mistakes....

J.

I love this. Non sequitur is a favorite of mine.

Is there a reason not to put him on the same diet as your older dog?

J.

Snark everywhere one looks nowadays....

Smh. Someone likes to hear him/herself pontificate and tell the rest of the world how misguided, rude, and idiotic we are. I have you an answer: Pawprint does genetic color testing. I imagine they could also give you the information you seek regarding possible coat and eye colors that might result from a particular cross. None of us here is a color genetics expert and it's unlikely any one of the inbreds here could answer your question in any meaningful way. Why not get the genetic testing done on the bitch and two potential sires and let the genetics experts tell you what they think the possibilities are? I mean, I know it's more entertaining to lecture the people here, but you've been given a simple answer to your question, one that has the best chance of giving you the best possible information you can get. Why not take that and run with it? 

J.

I guess after rudely telling everyone how rude and elitist they are the OP has run off to revel in his victory. I wonder if that lovely missive was composed in advance? Seems like another troll has come and gone.

At any rate, how would anyone be able to predict colors without knowing the colors of the sires? And don't the genetics companies offer genetic color tests? Couldn't someone do those tests and then decide what colors would likely be produced? If they really wanted to spend $$ doing that?

I second asking your extension agent. I would guess that the amount of copper in the grass would depend on whether it's taken up by the plants or runs off or is somehow sequestered by other chemicals in the soil.

J.

I just think about it in terms of the dog's left (come bye) and right (away). It doesn't matter which way the dog is facing--it's either going to go to its left or right....

J.

Oh yes, and those who chose not to feed raw just don't have the fortitude to be bothered. We're a lazy bunch, lol.

J.

Wow, you're blaming ABCA for your poor choice in a breeder? Registries don't "guarantee" quality. Your own research does that. Everything you described about that breeder should have been a huge, waving red flag to you. And yet you bought a pup anyway. That's on you. The ABCA secretary is one person. She can't police the gazillion breeders out there.

J.

You should ask your trainer for some actual data from a reliable source to back up his/her claims. And keep doing what you're doing. If it works for you there's no need to change it.

J.

I have a friend who used it on her extremely thunderphobic border collie with good results.

J.

As someone who owned and managed a fear aggressive dog, I can say that at least in my case, escalating or trying to punish never did anything to diminish his fear biting. Recognizing what triggered him and managing *that* is where I had the greatest success. The first time he snapped at me, my immediate reaction was to swat him across the muzzle. He taught me pretty quickly that reacting to him with any sort of aggression or violence (no matter the mild) was a recipe for increased fear aggression from him.

In those 14 years he only seriously bit me once (my mistake) and never hurt anyone else.

J.

I'm so sorry for your loss. Cherish your memories; they will help you through this. Mags is waiting for you on the other side.

J.

Maja,

I think the reason the work didn't necessarily show the condition of the hips is because working dogs are generally fit and well-muscled, and that muscling provides support to bad hips so they may go unnoticed (without radiographs) when the dog is of breeding age. My Jill had terrible hips, discovered on radiographs when her original owner wanted to breed her. She never had any problems from her hips until she was quite aged, no longer working, and of course less muscled.

Now that it's possible to view a dog's hips, dogs  with bad hips shouldn't be inadvertently bred, but the nature of the beast is such that there can be no guarantees. I honestly think in the case of a dog with relatives with HD that the overall incidence in that family, how good a worker the dog is, and the overall hip "history" of the potential mate would all need to be taken into account.

J.

I think genetics plays a role, helped along by good diets and good weights, as well as active lifestyles. All things that are supposed to confer longevity in humans too....

J.

Quality of life is my criterion too. I have never actually been told that I *should* put an old dog down. My vets have always trusted me to do the right thing at the right time. But having worked for vets and having numerous friends who work for vets, I can say that it happens way too often that owners refuse to put a pet down, despite all medical indications to the contrary, because they can't face doing so. The extremes are the people who insist that a dog be brought out of anesthesia during a surgery that finds something like inoperable cancer so they can say goodbye. So if I encountered a vet who suggested my dog was coming up on that time and I didn't agree, I'd either just nod my head and continue to do my own thing or simply tell my vet that I disagreed and that I'm fully prepared to do the deed when I believe my dog's quality of life has decreased to the point where such a decision is necessary. No need to feel guilted by a vet, and when something like that happens, just try to remember that vets likely see far more owners who hang on too long than the opposite.

J.

I don't get here much anymore, but an really sorry to hear this. One more "old timer" gone from this forum. Godspeed Pam.

J.

Love the poem!

J.

Laura Hicks, L&M Stockdogs is in South Dakota.

J.

Interesting. I have never used the "crap shoot thing" to steer people away from breeders and toward rescue, nor do I know of people doing that regularly. When I speak of a puppy being a crap shoot it's from the *starting point* of a well-bred litter and the discussion is about what puppy to pick. Given that the pup's ultimate ability as a working dog can't be known at 6-7 weeks (the crap shoot part of things), not to mention that the ultimate outcome will most certainly be greatly influenced by the raising and training of said pup, I always recommended that people choose the puppy that "speaks to" them or appeals to them in some tangible way. If you like the puppy for itself, then in my opinion you're going to put more time and effort into its raising and training and maybe also be more accepting of its weaknesses/holes once training has begun.

As others have mentioned, a young adult, and especially one that's been started, will be much less of a crap shoot.

But I've honestly never heard anyone suggest that because puppies are a crap shoot one should consider a rescue rather than a pup from a breeder. As Sue mentioned I have heard/seen numerous instances of people looking for a pet being asked to consider rescue, but not when the person is looking for a working dog.

J.

Donald I was just thinking of you and Anne yesterday. I'm glad you still reach out here.

J.

Yes, the work in reference to a game drives me crazy too.

J.

Dave Clark and Cheryl Branibar have them, or did. They're in Lexington. Cheryl is on Facebook, so you could connect with her there. They are large. Dave obviously works his and they've hosted trials using their flock, but they could give you plenty of information since they've raised them for a while.

J.

Oh no! I'm so sorry.

J.