juliepoudrier

Jim, I'm a senior member. I don't consider myself a breeder, having bred just a couple litters when I needed a working dog for myself, but I do understand color genetics in border collies. As I noted earlier, both dam and sire appear to be white factored (note the white going up past the stifle in both dogs; and one has white going across the hips). Doubling up on white factor can certainly produce piebald and mostly white dogs. The white dog I posted in my previous post is the product of white factored sire and dam. The dam was obviously white factored; you had to look closely at the sire to see it. I know because I bred him. He had several piebald littermates but they weren't as obvious because both parents also carried the gene for ticking and those pups were heavily ticked, appearing grey across the base white areas. Bottom line: those two dogs could indeed have produced a mostly white pup. They could also easily produce piebald pups. And they could just as easily produce nothing but classically marked pups. With your pup it's also possible that what you labeled as merle could have been heavily ticked piebald, unless the breeder clearly stated the bitch was a merle. The sire may have looked classically marked, but I'd be willing to bet he was white factored. J.

To be clear, "idiopathic" indicates of unknown origin. Although it likely is hereditary, the genetics are so complicated that it can't be predicted, and dogs who have never themselves priduced it before from lines not known to produce it can throw epileptic pups. The sire and dam of an epi pup or pups could be bred to different dogs and never produce it again. The complexity of the genetics is the main reason there is no genetic test for it. My epi did started out having seizures during periods of high excitement (running to the creek with the pack). They happened only occasionally, about once a month and she had a multimonth period with no seizures. Later, when I moved, she started having seizures much more frequently and they occurred when she was resting (so a more typical pattern). I was convinced that something in our new location was triggering the more frequent seizures, but never could definitively figure it out. My vet put her on phenobarbital and she never had another seizure. The reason someone mentioned changes in chemical use, etc., is because dogs with idiopathic epilepsy have lower thresholds to some substances and so exposure to those things can trigger seizures. If you keep a seizure diary (recommend highly, assuming she has more) you may be able to draw some correlations between exposure to certain things and the onset of a seizure. If that's the case, then you can limit exposure and potentially prevent them from happening in the first place. But that's also fairly rare. My epi dog was a working dog and worked stock her entire life without any problems (but she was well controlled on Pb). Seizures are scary to watch, but the dog won't remember what happened. The "dazed" period after a seizure is known as the post-ictal period and is typical. Some dogs have longer, more dazed post-ictal periods than others, like much of the course of an individual dog's epi journey. The main thing you can do during a seizure is to keep your dog safe. If you have other dogs in your house a seizure can trigger those others to attack. Phoebe was perfectly safe to leave unattended in my house but I always crated her so that if she seized while I wasn't there, she'd be safe from any resulting pack behavior from the other dogs. Finally, it seems that the younger a dog is when it starts seizing the more difficult it *may* be to control the seizures over time. But there are also a lot of medications out there that simply weren't available in the past. If you're on Facebook there is a canine epilepsy group that can be helpful and supportive. J.

More important to me would be whether he hears normally. I'd ask for a BAER test to make sure he hears. BTW, it looks as if both parents are white factored, so they certainly could produce all- or mostly-white puppies. That said, if you distrust the breeder, pass on the pup. Here's my mostly white smooth coat (after rolling in the red dirt):

People on this forum may only be familiar with Kristi through her screen name: Airbear. I don't think she's been on here in a long while, but all of us who do any activity with our dogs, and especially competitive activities, could do well to emulate her: always finding the joy and the humor no matter how her dogs performed. I'm sure her dogs had to be some of the happiest, well-loved dogs in the world--Kristi's high expectations never included blaming her dogs. I bet Bear, Wick, and Lou were waiting for her, tails wagging, waiting for their next adventures together in heaven. Godspeed, Kristi, the world is a lesser place as a result of your departure. J.

What a nice little movie!

You'll rarely, if ever, find brace competitions in the U.S. They are more common in the U.K. J.

Hmmmm... Wolfhound Deerhound Foxhound Coonhound Windhound??? (I know, I know ... there are lots of breed names that don't match function, but windhound makes me think of a dog so dumb it chases the wind or ... something related to "passing wind" haha!)

The old dogs can be a real puzzle, and you may never get answers. At Megan's age and given the infrequency of the episodes I'd be inclined to just "treat" symptoms as they happen rather than try to prevent. Although some individual border collies are quite long lived, you need to consider that you're dealing with dogs at the end of their lives. For me, that means keeping them comfortable and trying to keep them safe. When Willow had her fainting spells (what I called them) she saw multiple vets and had all sorts of tests. She has a grade 5 murmur and some heart enlargement, but we even did an EKG and couldn't find any abnormalities. And yet, she "fainted." I had an epileptic so am well familiar with grand mal seizures. Although Willow would fall over, get stiff, and whine this weird high pitched whine, I never felt that she was having seizures per se. The few episodes Boy had were even more bizarre (he stopped breathing and I couldn't find a heartbeat, but then after what seemed like forever, I'd find his heartbeat and he'd be breathing again . Afterward, he was very weak, but the weakness didn't last long). My point is that although some diagnostics might be in order, if for no other reason than to rule out the obvious, I also believe that dogs go through things as they get toward end of life that are just inexplicable. It doesn't make it any easier to bear, but I think just being a calm presence and supporting however you can in the moment can be the most useful approach. I've had so many old ones, and they've all presented unique challenges. J.

I don't see any harm in bringing the pup with you while you do chores, but definitely keep it on a leash/line. It's a good time for a pup to learn patience for sure as long as you're not expecting the pup to behave for hours on end. Be careful with the pup around stock because cattle, especially, are big and cam easily (even if inadvertently) hurt a little puppy. I'd let the pup see stock but I don't know that I'd encourage work at the beginning. J.

I think it's a convenient excuse because it sounds better than admitting she's a puppy broker. J.

Happy birthday, Kit! At 17, you deserve ALL the love!

I'm not sure why anyone was offended by GentleLake's comments: they are, in fact, true and do follow on from Edze's (I hope I got that right) comments about just trying the shed. In an ideal world we would train our stockdogs in a progression of steps and for the novice, stepwise training certainly makes the most sense from a human learning standpoint. I think most everyone who trains a stock dog has an idea about the normal progression of training. But when I give lessons, I try to encourage my students--once they understand the basics--to be open to opportunities as they present themselves because a lot of learning/training can happen in those moments. So if you're working a large group and a big hole naturally opens up, why not call the dog through, even if it's not at the "stage" where you'd be teaching a shed? I think all GentleLake was trying to say was that many people train in the moment, adjusting to what's happening in front of them, and Flora (?, not sure if that's your name) will eventually get to that point too. Flora & Molly, Barking is not unusual the first time (or first few times) a young dog is put on stock. I personally don't like it, but I won't correct it unless it's excessive and is because the dog is losing its head rather than thinking about working. They are trying to figure out what to do to move and control the stock and that's one of the tools they try. Excitement certainly plays into it. There are breeds where a "force bark" is said to be an asset, but no one typically says that of border collies. That said, I wouldn't worry about it right now--see if she settles in a few sessions. If it continues overlong (like throughout many training sessions), then I'd probably start correcting her (verbally) because by then it would say to me that her head wasn't in the right place. Of course this is a generalization having not seen Molly, but your trainer should be able to judge Molly's state of mind and deal with the barking appropriately if it becomes necessary. J.

It should be perfectly fine. If she tolerated Heartgard, she'll likely tolerate Interceptor. J.

I just learned of the death of Donald McCaig yesterday. This a great loss to the working border collie world. He was a tireless advocate of the working border collie and a great storyteller. If you read only one of his books, I suggest An American Homeplace, which is the story of how he and his wife Anne left the PR world of NYC for a sheep farm in the Virginia Highlands. Godspeed, Donald. J.

Or just research the rescue and make sure they're doing things the right way. I know of multiple reputable border collie rescues in the mid-Atlantic states. There are plenty of border collies either found wandering or surrendered locally, and these rescues have no need to go buy from dog sales. They can barely keep up with fostering the dogs that are in need locally. J.

Melatonin has been very effective for me when I've had oldsters who couldn't/wouldn't settle at night. In combination with some sort of anti-inflammatory/pain relief, it could help. J.

True that. But MDR1 is likely the tip of the iceberg. If we start there and continue trying to eliminate, could have serious consequences.

If the 0.5% carries the best working genetics. ABCA (and also ISDS, I think) are working hard to find ways to reduce the risk of creating dogs with these genetic problems without also diminishing the main reason the breed exists, which is its working ability. In the (Lassie) collie world, eliminating the mdr1 mutation is more straightforward because any working ability that breed had largely already been lost, so no worries about losing those complex genetics while trying to remove a mutation from the gene pool. J.

Your farm is so beautiful! And I'm glad Bonnie is no longer having her heart broken. My old man is losing his hearing (normal at 12.5 years) and I formally retired him from working trials a couple of weeks ago. But I can still find some jobs for him at home to keep his heart whole!

Just FYI, I've had two cryptorchid males. I waited until they were 2 years old before having them neutered. The biggest risk to retained testicles is undetected testicular cancer, which is unlikely in a young dog. There should be no harm in waiting till his growth plates have closed before neutering. J.

Doesn't the burdizzo just crush the spermatic "cords"? Could it be a possible burdizzo fail or the ram is producing extra testosterone in the adrenal glands? J.

Have you tried a drag line on him? If he doesn't come when called, you simply pick up the line and reel him in. That way he's not practicing being disobedient--you can call him once and then just reel him in. I wouldn't let him off leash or a drag line until he was reliable with a recall. At his age, they are approaching "teenage" years and will test the limits. One of mine at about that age, who was trained, would look at me when I called and then take off to the pond two farm fields away. Usually when I was trying to head out somewhere. I'd have to go walk her down. But I did. And she got no emotional response from me whenever it happened. So she finally realized that she gained nothing from it and stopped. She had a reliable recall the rest of her life. It doesn't have to be all positive (treats, treats, tears) or all negative (e-collar). My normal process (which is the foundation by which I train stock dogs) is that I will give a command/request, if the dog complies, it gets praise and perhaps a treat (if I've planned ahead and have some with me). If it doesn't comply, it gets some sort of correction word (a sharp "hey!" or "aaht!" especially if it's sniffing around and ignoring me), and a repeat of the command. If it still ignores me, then I'm going to walk it down or reel it in. I start this when they are quite young, and I do use treats when training basic manners on a pup. With a slightly older dog you didn't raise yourself or that has "issues," it's up to you to figure out what motivates your dog and adjust your training to that individual dog. If he's behaving aggressively toward other nearby dogs when on leash, then I'd avoid putting him in those situations while I trained him to improve his confidence (basic obedience, tricks, agility, whatever can build a dog's confidence). I'd work on his leash walking skills away from places where you're likely to encounter other dogs that trigger him. Once he's reacting, he can't learn (because he's full of adrenaline at that point, and that overrides everything else), and all you can do is remove him from the situation. One of my dogs, whom I got at around 18 months, was fear aggressive. I found that out the first time I grabbed for his collar, I don't even remember why. My first reaction when a dog snaps at me is to whack it across the muzzle, and that's what I did. There was an instant change in his demeanor--his lips came forward and his eyes hardened. It was clear to me that he was prepared to meet my aggression with escalated aggression of his own. So I had to figure out how to communicate with him in a non-confrontational, non-aggressive way. I never used treats or what might have been termed purely positive training with him (not because I was against it, but because it simply wasn't part of my training lexicon then). Instead, I took my cues from him, figured out what his triggers were and minimized them, and let him "tell" me what what training methods were suitable. He was a biter, but he lived with me until he passed away at 15 and I got bitten once in all that time, and that was my mistake. The point of this missive is that he was a clear case for which any training method that was harsh or hurtful would have just solidified in his mind that he was *right* to be fearful and that his aggressive reaction to protect himself was necessary. By figuring out a way to communicate with him that didn't add to his fear and worry I was able to have a long, productive partnership with him with minimal damage to either of us. The irony was that he was generally very friendly with everyone, but I had to be careful because I couldn't always predict what other people would do that might trigger a fear aggression reaction. An e-collar on a dog like Farleigh may have extinguished some unwanted behaviors but I'm certain it would have turned him into a ticking time bomb. Because I wanted a dog that I could take places (I was doing a lot of trialing then so traveled a lot to places where we were around a lot of other people and dogs) without fear of random aggressive behavior toward others, I took the time to figure out what things made him fearful enough to react badly and then worked on those things while also letting him learn to trust that I would protect him so that he wouldn't need to react. It did work. J.

I've always has cats and dogs together, but not outside cats that need to get used to dogs. Consider that from an outside cat's perspective, larger predators (and dogs are predators to cats) are dangerous, so it's not surprising that the cat reacted badly. Had it been a neighbor dog bent on destruction or a coyote instead of your new pup, the cat's response might have been what saved its life. And border collies do tend to have an especially predatory stare. If the pup can be confined to something like an xpen in the yard while the cat is out and about, then the cat will eventually get used to the pup. If your sister can go out and interact with her cat while you interact with the pup nearby, but outside of the cat's "flight or fight" zone, you can eventually desensitize the cat. Unfortunately, the nature of having outside cats is that it's much more difficult to set up and control meetings between the two. Your pup will get over the encounter you described, but I think it'll take you and your sister working together regularly to get the cat adjusted to the pup. And that includes you making sure the pup never chases or threatens the cat. J.

When you say other options are failing how long have you tried any of them? Training is a process and not an instantaneous one. Most people who turn to ecollars do so for expediency--they want change and want it now. Yes, training involves stress, but the stress of using the pressure of my voice or body presence is way different than the stress of giving a dog an electric shock. At any rate it seems you've already made up your mind and really came here seeking validation rather than being open to opposing opinions. Personally I think giving your dog time and space to get over fearfulness is *always* a better option than trying to force lack of fearfulness (how does that even work?) through aversive training. So if your dog gives a fearful response to something you "punish" it with a shock. Can you explain what, exactly, the dog learns from that? You may extinguish certain behaviors or reactions, but I wouldn't trust that you'd have actually somehow increased the dog's stability in situations that make it fearful. In fact, I'd posit that all you've done is teach the dog not to exhibit the fearfulness that it is assuredly *still feeling.* How does that actually help the dog to feel safe and comfortable in its environment? Rather than more fearful that the things that scare it will also result in punishment if it shows fear? For example, if you have a fear of spiders or heights and someone hits you every time you exhibit fear behaviors in those situations can you explain how that gets you over your fear? You may stop exhibiting the fear behaviors to avoid being hit, but I'd bet you'd still be afraid of those things--but just more afraid of being hit. Wouldn't an approach that actually helps you get past your fear, even if it takes five times as long, be the better, more productive approach to ensure that you could better enjoy your life, even if you can't eliminate all spiders or high spots from your activities? J.

Are you so determined to use an e-collar that you're just going to keep posting links about using them? Listen to what these folks are telling you. Quick fixes aren't really fixes at all. Despite all the explanations and concerns expressed here you're still determined this is the solution to your dog's issues? If so, I feel very, very sorry for your poor dog. And just FYI, I am a trainer who will use "positive punishment" (is that the right terminology?) when necessary (it's rarely necessary) when training a stock dog. But I'd never use an e-collar except in the most desperate situation if the dog's life depended on it. J.