juliepoudrier

This makes me very sad. Donald's trials were always the best of what trials are all about: a beautiful location, challenging sheep, a wonderful host and hostess and their amazing volunteers, unforgettable hospitality and fellowship, giving back to the community. This trial will be sorely missed. J.

^^Agreed. The cats deserve better. How many need to be killed (in a particularly horrific way, no less) before something is changed? I would either make it virtually impossible for the dogs to ever come into contact with the cats (in outdoor kennels instead of loose in the yard or simply no more outdoor cats) or I'd be using aversives to teach them that cats are strictly off limits (and the complete separation thing is going to be the most likely to actually save cat lives). I would also worry about them turning on the indoor cats when you least expect it. J.

Bravecto lasts for three months according to the manufacturer. Both the Seresto collars and Nexguard have worked well for me when none of the topicals did. We also treated the sheep (pour on insecticide) in the one back pasture that was a tick nightmare. I've been walking back there for months now and have found maybe just a couple of ticks on me. That's a huge difference. So not sure if treating sheep helped, but it might have! J.

^^Agreed. If you are able, maybe hiring a house cleaner to do a weekly deep cleaning would help with the hair issue. Blake needs to feel accepted of not exactly loved. And absolutely get him a crate. If space and decor are an issue, you can find ones that look like regular furniture and don't scream "dog crate." J.

I'm sorry that she didn't rally. My condolences to your sister's family. J.

I use the memory foam bath mats in crates as well for dogs who need extra padding and won't destroy them. Other relatively cheap crate bed options are the Mexican-style blankets you can find at truck stops and plain cotton bath mats folded in half <--these were what I used exclusively for years, but as they've worn out I've replaced them with other things, not because I didn't like them but because I happened to have other things on hand that would work. The dogs who will chew bedding in crates get nothing. J.

I'm sorry you lost Thunderbolt. They leave such a huge hole in our hearts, but I think the memories of our shared love will eventually heal us. Godspeed Thunderbolt. J.

Have they checked thoroughly for tick-borne diseases? Some can mimic IMHA and most vets don't think to check. If it's a TBD it's certainly treatable. In fact, I'd almost be inclined to ask my vet to just do a course of doxycycline to see if it makes a difference. J.

The tricky thing about the beds that are called "memory foam" is that they are actually that egg crate foam. They aren't the tempur-pedic style memory foam (if you want one of those you'll pay a good deal for it. My oldest dog has always loved wicker dog beds with something soft inside to sleep on. For years she slept in a Moses basket, until some puppy(ies) chewed it to the point where I had to dispose of it. I have the round Costco beds and the bolster style. I have one that's sort of a bolster that I bought at an agility trial, and I have another that I bought at a pet expo that is just regular thin foam, maybe an inch thick. Then there's the "cup bed" someone gave me. And all the various old quilts and blankets that are no longer fit for use by the human, but which make fine beds for the dogs. My dogs have shown no preference for any particular bed of the many choices they have. In summer they prefer the concrete floor, mostly, and I have a couple who really believe the only place to sleep is on my bed. And the easy chair or love seat. I, too, prefer something that is easily washed, and that's the quilts and thinner beds. But my older arthritic dog(s) really needs to be up of the floor on softer bedding, so I keep a selection of beds. I had another old dog who loved one of those thick foam (4") orthopedic beds. It was pretty stiff, but she loved it. When Twist is feeling particularly achy she will ask to get on my bed, which has a tempur-pedic style topper. If she asks, she gets to get up there for the night. J.

Wow, brilliant. Let's breed a dog who clearly has temperament problems. Maybe she'll make a bunch more JUST LIKE HER! Then the brother can be guaranteed that he has created puppies who will likely meet untimely deaths or be treated poorly by their owners. Way to go, potential breeder. You are a shining example of what's wrong with backyard breeding in this country. Wear the badge proudly. J.

My input, FWIW, 1. Piddling randomly while walking is NOT normal IMO and I wouldn't even refer to it as marking. I've never known a male, beyond a little puppy, to do that.I'd have him checked for a physical issue if you haven't already. Of course with the "coming down heavy on him" over it thing you've probably added another element to it that might be difficult to overcome at this point. You could always try something like a belly band or, if you haven't already, train him to go on command and only on command (because then presumably if you haven't told him "go potty" or whatever then he should just hold it). I think I'd re-examine how this might have started in the first place (for example, did he have to pee and you insisted he keep walking so he started peeing while walking?). Figuring out a root cause could go a long way toward coming up with a solution. 2. Neutering him will not necessarily change leg lifting behavior, nor will it necessarily change his interest in females. My 9 1/2 year old male (neutered at 2 or a little after) will tie with females in heat. He knows they're in heat and he'll do something about it given the opportunity. He will lick pee and chatter his teeth. My 9 month old (intact) doesn't really know what it's all about, but he was certainly aware when Lark was in heat last month. The point being that neutering may not change any of these behaviors. What it will do is prevent him from accidentally siring a litter, and he may focus more on work when a bitch in heat is around, but there are no real guarantees that neutering will change certain male behaviors. 3. Almost all adolescent males go through a "kick me" phase, of variable duration. Other males, intact or neutered, recognize a young male coming into his own and they often will choose that time to make a point about who is dominant. The older dog I mentioned above went through that when he was a youngster. He could just be minding his own business at a sheepdog trial and males would go out of their way to be ugly to him. Biologically, a young intact male is the COMPETITION, and older dogs are generally inclined to let put them in their place BEFORE they have a chance to think about challenging the older guys. Normal behavior among all concerned. Neutering him may make him less likely to be the victim of this, or it may not. I hope that helps. J.

Geonni, You've been here long enough to know that most of the people on this forum are not working dog people and don't show a big interest in photos of working dogs. I pretty much stopped posting working photos here for that reason. Why bother is there's so little interest? I personally can't judge a dog based on still photos. A dog can end up looking either much better or much worse than it really is and the viewer has no way of knowing. That's why I had asked about videos earlier. I understand why some clinicians don't want video--stuff gets taken out of context or misinterpreted by someone trying to use the video as a substitute for a live person helping them. Not necessarily a good thing by any means. But I, for one, can't judge Maid based on photos. Regarding the trainer you are going to, I don't know her. She appears to be an all-breed trainer, which says to me that her training is probably geared more toward those venues that offer herding titles. Historically on this forum we have steered people away from this sort of trainer because their training goals generally don't match up with what many of us want out of our dogs (our own training goals). If you are happy with the situation and with whatever progress you and Maid can make as you continue on this path, then that's what really matters. I don't think you've ever said that you wanted to get to the USBCHA National Finals. You just need to be aware that someone who doesn't train and trial border collies to a high standard (competitive in USBCHA open) may not be able to train a dog to that level. But as far as I know that's not one of your aspirations. So as long as she's being kind to Maid and helping her to progress, you should be fine. Just don't expect great things out of a trainer who, by the very nature of her business, is something of a jack of all breeds and so may have fewer tools (or perhaps inappropriate tools) to address issues as they arise with Maid (that is, to be able to change her methods to suit the individual dog). But ultimately none of us is there and you are, so it's up to you to figure out if it's working for you and Maid. I hope you'll continue to let us know how both of you progress. Beware of micromanaging, since it seems that Maid's start as a working dog might have been too heavy handed. If she were my dog I would spend a great deal of time just letting her work and figure things out for herself (within reason). Hopefully Joyce will do something similar and not look at Maid as a dog who needs to be able to complete an AKC/AHBA course within a certain time frame (which is likely what many of her clients are seeking) and then train her in that way. My two cents. J.

FWIW, spondylosis (the bone spurs on his vertebrae) are fairly common. They usually are diagnosed incidentally when the dog is X-rayed for something else. Six or seven wouldn't be that young for such a finding, though the severity might be of concern. It's possible that the spurs are also inside his spinal column and that could put pressure on his spinal cord and cause neurologic issues. I think I'd get a second opinion just to make sure you've got the correct diagnosis. Swimming can be a good low-impact exercise for an arthritic dog, but I'd get a vet who does rehab to look at him and okay that activity before just jumping in. J.

Although border collies can be breed snobs, IME they are also quite tolerant of breeds that they have been raised with. A Belgian sheepdog is a herding breed, so it's not as if you'd be adding in something totally in foreign behaviorwise anyway. J.

Hmmm...so in order to avoid the "third wheel" scenario one just needs more dogs (says the person who just took in an eighth. ). J.

As Donald noted, often letting them tap into their true genetic potential can help them mature/settle by giving their world meaning. That said, if you're not really interested in stockwork then it's probably not worth pursuing. I do have goofy dogs, though, who are perfectly serious on stock. J.

It was very slow yesterday, I'm guessing because the whole world was trying to get their free tags. It said "until supplies last" and I wonder if they've reached that limit? J.

Pam, I don't think I could find a thread, but in a number of discussions in the past you have alluded to your lack of interest in stockdog training. No big deal if you changed your mind, after all people do that. I also remember posts from years gone by when you also didn't have much nice to say about working border collies, so I was a bit surprised (in a good way!) when you went and got one. Times and people change.... J.

Alfreda, There will be some trainers whose methods you will know instantly aren't for you. There are still the "beat the dog into submission" types out there. Absolutely not for me. But I suppose some folks might actually want to learn to train that way. There are also plenty of trainers (mainly folks who do all breed herding) who will use treats for training stockwork. It might be effective for some breeds and may well make some clients happy, but again, not for me. Then there are a ton of folks who fall across an entire middle spectrum. Many of us train in the moment. As Donald put it, we "see" the dog (and the stock) and then adjust our method to that particular dog (and how the stock are behaving) in that particular moment. I use pressure-release. I think most of us do. But sometimes that pressure might be directed at the dog, sometimes at a place, sometimes onto the stock. All will have the effect of allowing the dog to feel pressure--the pressure is just applied differently depending on the situation. (And for a novice, I might well tell them to put pressure on the ground or the stock, because novices tend to overdo it, and by NOT putting pressure directly on the dog, there is less risk of the novice doing harm. So they are really just different ways of achieving the same end goal.) I fall into the camp of wanting a natural working dog. I don' require a solid down off stock (I can get it on stock, sooner or later), nor do I put commands on actions early. I was watching a friend work her young dog the other day. The dog is very one sided. Every time she wanted the dog to flank to her "bad" side, she'd speak to the dog. Her speaking had the effect of causing the dog to turn in and stop, thus interrupting the flow that was happening as the dog started to flank to the bad side (that is, the dog was going in the direction she wanted already and speaking the command caused the dog to stop). I suggested she do nothing but perhaps shush the dog and at the same time move around the stock to change the balance point and encourage the dog on around. It worked and she had the dog going around to her bad side much more easily. Sometimes less is more. In many cases, especially with novice handlers, the chatter is such that it actually interferes with the dog, who is trying to understand how it can control the stock, how its own pressure and release works on the stock, and so on. I feel that not only should the young/novice dog be allowed to just work, but that the young/novice handler will gain a much greater understanding of how stock react to a dog and how a dog learns from the stock if they quit trying to control every little thing that's happening (easier said than done, I know ). But, I'm digressing a bit. When I talk about methods, I really mean that you not only need to be able to develop a working relationship with the trainer (and not all personalities mesh), but you also need to be comfortable with and capable of implementing that trainer's methods (assuming that you might be working on your own between lessons). I've used this example before, but I'll use it again because it illustrates what I'm talking about. When I was pretty new and Twist was maybe a year old (she'll be 14 this month), I went to a Bobby Dalziel clinic. I learned a great deal, but there were some things he did that I was just way too novice to even hope to replicate. Bobby uses a long line (or did) to help teach inside flanks on the drive. While watching him use this method it made perfect sense to me, BUT when I tried it at home, I was hopeless. Now that I am an experienced handler, I get how to use that method. I don't use it a lot, but I have. But *I* had to get to the point with my own skills to be able to replicate what I was shown that day all those years ago. So one of the things I meant by "method" was simply that what the trainer does is something you understand and have some hope of doing yourself. I don't like a mechanical dog and I don't train that way. I don't like drilling, so I don't train that way. I rarely practice a trial course because that's too much like drilling. I don't train things in a particular order (if, for example my dog isn't yet driving but we're working on something and a giant hole opens up in the middle of the stock, I'll call the youngster through to me, even though shedding generally occurs a much more advanced level)--this is another example of training "in the moment." When I'm looking for a trainer, those would be things that would influence my choice because if I don't like those things (rigid structure), why would I choose a trainer who trains that way? So that also falls under "method." Obviously, when you're new you just have to get out there and get started somehow, but if you're reading, watching, experimenting, you'll figure out what kind of learner *you* are and what sort of trainer you would like to be and that will then influence the sort of trainer and training methods you will prefer. And fortunately most of our dogs are pretty resilient and will allow us our mistakes while we're figuring out this whole stockdog thing. J.

Is Indi a strictly outside dog? It's entirely likely that the arguing neighbors are stressing her out badly. I have several working dogs who simply do not like yelling. I don't force them to endure it just because I think they need to. I try to limit their exposure to the things that scare them or stress them out. She clings to you because your presence is a source of comfort and safety to her. If you're not willing to let her in when the neighbors are scaring her, it's likely that she will just get worse over time. Dogs sense changes in barometric pressure so it's no surprise that she reacts to impending storms before you're aware of them. I doubt her hearing has become more sensitive. I think it's likely that the yelling and slamming scares her and she's simply reacting to something she can't get away from. If you crated her in the house while you're not there she might feel safer and less stressed. J.

I agree with Anna. I think for new people/dogs consistency is very important. Different methods could at best be rather confusing. Clearly if there's no one nearby then it's something of a special situation and you gotta do what you gotta do, but if one of the folks you're looking at is closer than the others and uses a training method that suits you, I'd stick with that one person at least until you're more comfortable with the whole process and have gained the knowledge and confidence to make use (either in practice or in theory <--by theory, I mean that you can watch or read about a method and then implement it on your own) of different training methods. J.

I had pretty much the same experience as Paula. My spayed female started leaking around age 7. She was on Proin for the rest of her life (she made it to a month shy of her 17th birthday), without any issues whatsoever. This is not a highly unusual issue for middle aged female dogs. J.

At Montpelier last year the judge, who is in his 80s, stood the entire day. SDT judges do move around a fair amount, often to get a better view of the lines. Maybe a better way to have phrased it or asked the question (and I guess I should have followed my first inclination in my original post and asked that this not turn into a pissing contest) would have been to ask Pam what inspires agility judges to volunteer, since she said she gets lots of volunteers and seemed completely surprised that we would pay SDT judges over here. I was simply pointing out why we think a paid judge is worth the price. I don't know enough about agility to have an opinion about what it means to judge an agility trial. I do, however, believe that in agility there still isn't the nuance that occurs at a sheepdog trial. After all, a judge in the former (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't have to judge how many points to take off for a turn at the post or a panel that's a little too wide so as to leave room for the competitor who has tighter turns while also giving greater penalty to the competitor who might have an even slightly *wider* turn. In other words, the judge isn't just judging the one who is on the field, but also makes sure that his/her judgment for that one also places that one in the correct rank order against all the others running. I thought that in agility placements depended on clean runs and time to a large degree, so more like a points and time trial vs. a fully judged trial. But as I said, my questions and comments weren't an attempt to say that judges at agility trials don't have a difficult job, but rather to point out WHY we prefer to pay SDT judges, especially if we want good judging. Okay, now you can go back to the "my job is more difficult than yours" argument. Maybe Pam will return and answer my question regarding why she has scads of folks eager to volunteer to judge at agility trials, since we seem to have the exact opposite issue at stock dog trials. J.

I think there's a lot more nuance in judging sheepdog trials vs. judging agility trials. Can any of the agility folks explain the role of the judge at an agility trial? Is it to call dogs off course and mark errors at obstacles? I realize it all happens very quickly, but I get the impression that the judging is pretty much yes/no (as in, was the contact made, was the bar knocked down, did the dog go off course) vs. how far off the perfect line is that group of sheep, did that dog lift them too hard and how bad was it compared to all the other dogs who have run, were the sheep unsettled at the top/lift because of something the dog did on its outrun (too tight?) or is that just the nature of these sheep, did that sheep pop up because it's flighty or did the dog actually grip or bump it, did that handler step in to the opening at the shed, did the handler help the dog too much at the pen, etc. And at the end, did my scores place the dogs correctly given the overall work? And the judge has likely made those sorts of decisions on every run for up to 10 hours in a day, knowing that the handlers are also "judging".. Add in the novice classes, where the work is less clean and things go much more quickly and one can see why it might be difficult to get good judges and why they deserve to be paid. The work is so good most of the time now that it can be very small differences in runs that decide who wins and who doesn't. It requires skill, consistency, a thick skin, and good attention to detail. I have judged, and it's a hell of a lot of pressure. I don't like doing it at all. In fact, I'd rather do most anything else at a trial. One time a host asked me if I wouldn't rather judge than set sheep, and my response was that I'm less likely to get complaints setting sheep. Her reply to that was that people will complain about set out too. My answer: but at least I'm not within hearing of them while they're doing it. I think the two cultures/sports are really too different to compare judging between them. J.

I'd have to wonder why anyone would go to the trials as described by Pam and Liz. If the judging is that bad and blatant, why is anyone paying to enter? Seriously. I get that if you're new to the area you may not know, but it sounds like this is an established trial and at least some folks know what the deal is. Talk amongst yourselves? And then everyone votes with their feet? A trial can't be held without competitors, right? J.