capnree

I'm under the impression that she used to do obedience, but no longer trials her dogs in anything (but other people trial their Hob Nob dogs). I was surprised to find her blog -I'm not sure if she plans on doing something with all her new dogs, or if she's just playing with them to show online, or what. I was told by someone who saw her facility she has a pretty large number of dogs. She wrote she does not leave her farm a lot. The Hob Nob dogs I've met are nice. They are pretty, fast, and driven, and all the ones I've met have nice temperaments. I think a handful here and there do some USBCHA. I'm not supporting them, I'm just surprised they seems to turn out all right as far as a companion (and agility dog, honestly) goes when not a lot seems to be going into it. Sometimes she breeds to well trialed agility dogs, other than that, it seems like a mis-mash of a bunch of stuff. It's hard for a person who doesn't know anything about herding to see anything wrong with that video (I asked some friends), when looking for a dog for agility -they see nice dogs, but they don't see the other side they support by buying the dog (ie, the stuff going wrong with starting a dog in the video). For the one clinic I knew of, the host was a larger name agility person who has a facility to do multiple dog sports, and the host used to run (agility) some HN dogs (and recommends HN to her students.) - which might be an explanation. I feel like she's probably one of those people who had an early start in the dog sport thing and so has built on that and stuck around, like a few other agility breeders.

Not really sure what she was trying to teach (I'm just starting, so I have no idea what she would even be attempting to do, I just knew it looked frustrating) -she has a blog, here is the specific post. http://hobnob7.livejournal.com/1172.html

I usually lurk, but I thought I'd add. Hob Nob herding video for anyone curious (that is the breeder in the video, she gives clinics, too, or used to):

Where I work is associated with a veterinary college, and every two weeks we can buy SD at a discount price --$10 per -large- bag of SD. Seriously painful to think about, but I still end up spending $30+ more dollars to buy a different food. ($10!!!! Can you imagine? Oh I wish...)

It just depends. I've run my slower, more careful dogs in the rain. I haven't had to decide that for a faster dog yet. Watch the dogs ahead of you --are they slipping? I was watching a trial where all the dogs were slipping on the downside of the dogwalk -I would have skipped the dogwalk, or gotten my dog to practically walk over it. Try to turn tight and see if you slip in the grass, run your hand down the equipment, etc. I haven't had to decide either, but I don't think I would, or I would just ask your dog to really slow down, and you be extra-obvious about things, add yards, make bigger angles... Good luck. : )

I will explain it better the first time, next time.

I just wanted to explain my anecdote a little more...he wasn't belittling agility, it really was a foreign concept to him. I thought it was a good illustration of why some stockdog people did not understand tugging. I don't think it's fair to get defensive about something someone doesn't understand, when they've never seen it before and are coming from a completely different side of the spectrum. I told him I did agility, he didn't care, why would he? Edit, because I didn't see the post above: I wasn't referring to agility, I think what Seelie Fey said he trusted his dog to do, in flyball, qualifies as manic drive. I have seen dogs in agility I think qualify as the same. It doesn't mean they are not handler focused, because someone is controlling them. But then you get into a breeding discussion, which was already done... I do understand the reason for using a tug in flyball. I don't understand Seelie Fey's entire post. Maybe you summed up in a word what he/she was trying to say.

Seelie Fey -- I don't get, why can't a dog do flyball, and be able to recall off anything, ie, have the same expectations stockdogranch is referring to? Without decreasing the drive for any of the things you just mentioned. Can't you have both, not one or the other (recall vs. manic drive)? Shouldn't an excellent trainer be able to do that? I don't think your analogy works very well. Your "just a few steps" when a dog walks to the post, etc. are not of an equivalent nature to the flyball lane scenario. And I'm sure someone could prevent those few steps if they checked them. I don't understand how the flyball dog is not under control if it is not trusted. I do understand what you say about the safety issue. I don't understand where your "just a few steps" angle comes from. It sounds like you do not trust your dog not to take the step, and supplement your point by saying it doesn't matter in herding because you've seen dogs doing it. I think an obedience person is asking less of a dog to do a simple task like come in a straight line, rather than be responsible for an entire group of sheep at a large distance, or have a feel for when to stop. Note: The clinic anecdote wasn't meant to be a slight, if anyone thought of it that way, I thought it was an illustration...I mean, when you think about it, asking your dog to go over jumps and tunnels is kind of whacky. So I don't think too hard about it. : )

In reference to stockdog's last post -I agree with you, I do not think it would be detrimental. I think she may have been referring to a dog in training? Or, perhaps, a young dog, in competition in training? Whereas I would never think of setting foot in a USBCHA trial with a slightly trained dog, I wouldn't hesitate to try an agility trial with a young, unseasoned dog, who can do everything safely, at least. I think it depends on the skill of the trainer, the skill of the dog, the expectations of the trainer, and what they care about. I have a soft dog who I would not initially call off, but he would never think of not coming when called, anyway. Now, every now and then if he stops thinking all together, I can tell him so. On the other hand, this may confuse you -but I am glad he's more confident to -he goes faster. Which is the point. (For me -to go faster.) My puppy I have to catch. I'm glad she thinks the tunnel is so fun she has to take it 1,000 times while avoiding capture. At the same time...walking her down in a field gets old. I'm pretty sure me teaching her she has to come is clearly not going to dampen any of her enthusiasm later, and coming is more important. Same situation as your puppy? It's what we'd all like to see, but it doesn't always happen, but instead of having a mediocre sheepdog, which is intrinsic, we can actually make a good agility dog. The scenario, really --is a training tool, like a tug. I would not expect a seasoned dog to behave like that, say, at a national level competition, or something. Edit: I don't know about flyball. Flyball is too wild for me, seeming like it has a level of un-control, I don't know if it does or not -that's from an outsider's perspective. Edit (again): Sorry, I was at a working/intro clinic, where the clinician mentioned watching someone train a dog in agility once -the dog was getting a lot of treats. The clinician asked the trainer if the dog needed treats to do agility, and the trainer said yes. The clinician wanted to know why on earth someone would do something that clearly was not intrinsic if they had to be fed food for it...

Here it is: http://creeksideattheworlds.blogspot.com/

Fiona Robertson (Canada) also has a fun World Trial blog, if anyone is interested.

Do you use the word 'bar' in the same sense that we do --as in, selling alcoholic beverages? Because we definitely don't have that. So that (with the entertainment and day for charity...and the lessons) definitely is not the same atmosphere here. It differs. Some people wrote they didn't like the people in USDAA, but USDAA and CPE I have found the nicest people so far. At others I have been snapped at for my dog glancing at their snarky dog, all while they are stuffing their dog's face with cheese *within* 10 feet of the ring as we are waiting to go in. (No food/toys within 10 feet of the ring...I don't care if you break the rules, but don't snap at me when you do.) I'm not sure how I can even begin to describe the difference -kind of like a swim meet? Ready, go...wait, ready go...wait. You make your own entertainment, and avoid the stressed people. Pat W., I can't find the post, but I think she was referring to "cheap and accessible" as to being in the UK, not here? As far as the "too easy to Q" bit, I guess it just depends on you and your dog. NADAC really had a different feel to it than the other organizations. I hesitate to say it is easy to Q in NADAC, because I don't want to get lambasted by those in NADAC, but I think some organizations are definitely harder to Q in than others. It's hard to say for sure which is the hardest, because each not only has their own rules, but their own 'style' of course designed. For instance -AKC jumpers at the higher levels are tight courses. NADAC tends to be open, a lot of straight lines, and die-hard NADACers are all about distance. So if you train your dog to be tight and with you (what I like), you might have a bit of a problem doing a high-level gamble in NADAC. Likewise, if you are all about moving as little as possible, it might be harder to Q (or win, at least) in a higher level AKC jumpers course. It all comes back to the individual again. Ack! Too much thinking about agility!

I guess I could have said it much shorter. Lengthy is what I get for trying to be semi-polite when others responded much better.

Sorry, guess I'm not done --I also think this is a pretty bold statement to make. I don't really consider moving up a level all that much of an achievement -maybe based on your system, you do. But who says I have to consider that an achievement? It seems like you are labeling it as such based on your experience in your country. For me, I think an achievement would be placing top 10 in the USDAA Nationals. An achievement would be someone taking a low drive dog, and turning them into a high drive dog. Like I said, accomplishments -and the amount people have to work for them -differ for the individual. Globally. In life -not just in agility. Maybe you would like to re-write that statement to include your definition of progress? For example -if I step onto a USBCHA field in Novice, I would darn well appreciate it. Someone with a lifetime's experience may not consider that as much of an achievement. But are they going to say I didn't work very hard for it, not knowing me personally? Can it not be considered an achievement at all, since it is not winning? It would be very self-interested to assume so, and I highly doubt anyone would do so.

That's very interesting -I've always wanted a more clear-cut idea of how agility works on your side. I really love watching your jumpers courses on youtube, they always look very challenging. I would say a local show here is not as competitive based on sheer numbers and geographical size. I entered a show in AKC Novice A --and was the only person in that class. It was a large show, too. We also have limits in some venues -for example, the last CPE show I went to, I think the limit was 250 runs per day -so you have to get your entry in before the show fills. CPE isn't very popular where I am, so, the show didn't even fill. What makes you think the system over here is more arranged so that everyone can achieve --titles? I don't really care about titles. So is that what you're talking about -being able to move up a level without winning? I have no problem with that -I can't even imagine what people here in the US would do if the dogs had to win to move up. You'd have some very odd border collies, and then people would see those dogs winning, think they could also win with the odd border collie, so they go and get one, too. We already have that! Agility is expensive (can be $20 US for one run). If my friend puts some hard work into her mystery mutt shelter dog, I want her to be rewarded for that without the reward having to be winning -it's just a hobby, and like you said, the top is the top, irregardless of what everyone else is doing. If she can win with that dog -even better, but, really, who cares? Winning is not the only admirable goal -it depends on you, and the dog. If I'm driving two hours away (and that's minimum -that's a local trial) and spending a ton of cash, I want to do more than just talk to friends. I like to be competitive regardless of the system, so I like the sound of yours -but I don't think it would work well over here. I also don't know anyone here who could take the time off for a 5 day show, let alone more than one. You would not get near enough entries to cover the cost. If I have that much vacation time, I'm not doing agility, I'm going to the mountains! Agility maybe seems more recreational over there, though also very competitive? JWW is 'Jumpers with Weaves'. ETA: I would not be able to give up the games for anything. I love having games -I almost can't do AKC because of the sheer amount of time I have to sit and wait. I have only entered one --I really can't sit around that long doing nothing, as much as I love agility. I *love* Snooker.