Ooky

In general, vaccines schedules are set for a couple reasons: hitting what is considered a sweet spot in terms of maximizing number of individuals who successfully become immune, while minimizing the amount of adverse events and reactions, and retaining that immunity so most individuals don’t have gaps in time where they have reduced or no immunity. Many vaccines need to have repeated exposures for many or even most immune systems to generate immunity. The immune system has to learn, and vaccines are so safe for the immune system that a trade off is that you need a bit more lessons to learn. So a lot of diseases, both for people and dogs, get multiple, more closely spaced doses when you first vaccinate, which generates a solid basis for immunity. Then, you enter a follow-up cycle where you only periodically remind the immune system what it learned during that first set of exposures (boosters). Personally, I would take her back when you can and get the next recommended set. She may not be protected otherwise.

I don’t know anything about this, but it does sound very odd. If I were you and this was the biggest factor in my decision process I would take her to my own vet and get an opinion. Interested to hear what you find out/decide either way.

Ooookay...Phaedra let me work a solid 8 hours after a morning play and with a break for a lunch time walk. She rested at my feet and either slept or chewed her toys. No potty accidents. She voluntarily followed me from room to room and stayed out of trouble. I bet Odin really helps model the good behavior (he’s normally with me at work). And I was much more immobile because I am not doing anything but staring at my computer or taking calls for most of the day, while he usually cleans, takes care of kid, etc. I won’t entirely blame husband. But there is NOTHING wrong with this puppy’s off switch.

Yes I know 100%. And she has a good off switch for her age too, you just have to help her sometimes, like any pup. We’re talking about it. It’s just hard because he’ feels like he’s worked with her all. Day. And then I seem like I’m criticizing after being away all day, when I really just want to help. (And prevent crazy dog syndrome.) Hence the working from home today, which I’m more than happy about, and will definitely involve crate time. The non dog trainers we love, amirite?

Thank you! The breeder said as much about those ears himself, apparently they are impressive even for this cross. I know about the puzzle boxes! I didn’t have the cash at the time due to Odin’s OCD (osteochondritis dessicans) as a pup, so was excited to get one. The instructions were honestly cute, seeing her immediately figure that this out. You guys, I couldn’t be more in love with her but my husband, who — as he’s a teacher off for the summer — has definitely spent more time with her, is getting tired and frustrated. I come home from work and honestly am sad at how little humor and fun he finds in any of her puppy behaviors (and misbehaviors). I’m working from home tomorrow to give him a break. Part of it is I feel like he just will play with her for too long instead of insisting on an off switch, you know? I do take her on weekends and other random days so it’s not like I have NO idea of what she’s like, to keep her all day from reinforcing bad decisions and also just perpetrating BC puppy chaos. But also puppies are just tiring, she’s drivey, and I am confident that this too will pass, and he’ll look back upon her crazy puppyhood and ears with fondness.

Well, I got Phaedra a poker puzzle box. The instructions cautioned that it may take your dog’s weeks to figure out the first puzzle, to be patient, and try things like propping a treat with the lid open to entice them. She figured out all four fully closed boxes (slide lid, pull handle, drawer, and flip up top) in about 90 seconds. So now we are doing clicker training to open specific boxes with commands. Still so sweet. And we’re finally getting a handle on potty training. Her ears are ridiculous!

Starry777, dog sport bred collies are not bred to retain working characteristics (which include a hefty dose of impulse control, thoughtfulness, etc), instead typically only for the drive and speed portions, and the balance tends to get out of wack quickly.

I’m not sure the wolf would cry to see a good sheep or cattle collie! Having watched wolves at Yellowstone several times, what I think we largely have in the collie is the role of the wolves that set up the ambush, that drive the prey towards the wolves that will do the kill, and the ones that use their speed and pressure to split off the prey from the herd that will be a focus typically for another, fresher wolf to take down. Now wolves play many roles in the hunt over the course of their lifetimes, and we ask the collie to stick to that “herding” part of the pack unt behavior, and mix it with a huge amount of biddability.

agree with everything others have said about the qualities of the breed. They are meant to be intense dogs. My husband calls them Ferrari dogs. Most pet people have at least some trouble with a Prius dog, at least at some point, unless they are very experienced and dedicated to dog training or naturally talented, which is a minority. Also, remember this board is going to have a disproportionate amount of owners writing in about problems, because they are looking for help. Fewer people get on just to announce things are great with their BC!

Hope he feels better soon!

My guy Odin was 55 lbs at his heaviest, which was still in shape for him. He’s a little less muscular now at 10 years old and 52 lbs. He’s definitely on the larger end of BCs I see. Acana is a good food, my pup is on their normal puppy food now with raw as a topper/supplement. She won’t be 50 lbs though.

This is a good article. I don’t think the lower fat is an issue, but check on the calcium, phosphorus, and calcium to phosphorus ratio. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/ they reccomend a final weight of 50 lbs for large breed puppy food.

Sorry I wasn't more clear - we are doing not only Bordetella bronchiseptica but also canine flu and canine adenovirus as "kennel cough" vax. "Bordetella" is a constellation of diseases, some of them can become very serious. Though I agree bacterial bordetella is one of the less concerning ones, it is required for doggy daycare here, and is especially recommended for puppies because that's who is most susceptible (along with very old dogs). It can be a secondary infection to something more serious, and has been prevalent around this area for the past few years, is what I have been told by multiple vets who I trust. If my pup were to contract any of these diseases in the next couple of months I could not take her to daycare until it was resolved - not good for us. But I also don't want her to get a bacterial or viral respiratory infection at a young age, if I can at all help it. I have also had a cat who had a series of common respiratory infections as a kitten (she got sick in a shelter) that caused sinus scarring and other lifetime effects that I would prefer to avoid in my new pup. And it has nothing to do with vax, but I also really would like to avoid some sort of persistent diarrhea mung like Odin had as a pup and took us months and months to get a handle on, which is also a big concern at high density areas like dog beaches and dog parks. As a biologist with a background in medical science, I take a very different approach than the above to vaccinations - I am most decidedly pro-vax and pro-scientifically recommended vax schedules for my animals and human child Efficacy is not perfect, it varies among vaccines and among individuals, and vaccine injuries can very rarely occur. But the overwhelming evidence is that vaccines are a very low risk medical intervention, especially given the benefits they provide. Without trying to argue too much, I don't find dognaturally to be an especially reputable source, too much like the anti-vax human literature and claims I have seen (like combo vax are "always" more dangerous - not true!), with links to (in my mind) questionable products to "remove harmful vaccination effects". The link below calls them out specifically. But you should discuss with a vet you trust, do your research, and make your own decision! I just brought it up because when I think of heavily-used dog parks and dog beaches with my young pup right now, my -- and my vet's -- thoughts immediately turn to it not being a great time in her life or immune system for lots of possible disease exposure. Gentle Lake and D'elle already spoke very well to all your other questions and the other good reasons that dog parks and beaches should be carefully considered. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jan/24/anti-vaxxers-new-target-their-sights-pets

I have an Odin too! He looked a lot like your guy when he was smol. (Squee, the memories!) Ears looked almost exactly the same. I agree it is too early to tell, but my Odin ended up with airplane ears (see below). He didn't have much hair when he first grew out of puppyhood, then his tail filled out, and the the hair just kept growing over the years. Now at 10 he is a medium to long coat with a good amount of curl. My vet cautioned against dog beaches and dog parks in particular until past the initial vaccinations (not just the puppy set, but bordatella as well). She also cautioned that puppies can pick up diarrhea-causing illnesses at these places. I'll be placing my new pup in doggy daycare on some days but that is a very controlled environment (vax records required) but not until she is 5 months old, again because we do not want to risk disease any sooner than we have to. Welcome!

What a wonderful tribute, Mags was clearly the best boy. So sorry for your loss,

Odin has lots of fun tricks but I think what impresses people the most is his behavior at work. I can send him to different people’s offices: “go see Ginger”, “go see Jeff”, etc. From anywhere in our large office I can send him back to my office and his crate by saying “kennel up” - not that impressive really but it never fails to impress others. And I am proud of him for how completely solid the command is, no matter where we are and what we are doing, he immediately turns and runs back to his crate. I leave his crate open almost all day every day and he never leaves unless invited to, even when I stand up and walk out of my office to go to meetings, lunch, or even leave for a few hours to go out of the office. except for two things: he leaves his crate when I stand up to go home each day - not sure how he knows but he always does. And twice in 10 years, he had an attack of diarrhea while I was gone. Both times he went to find another work friend with his leash and asked to be taken out by them.

That’s really interesting, D’Elle. Makes my experience with CA rescues make more sense. I had active applications in with several local CA rescues and watched these for years. Every dog I inquired about was either already taken (understandable) or I would be rejected because I have another dog and/or child. I never inquired about dogs the rescue listed as needing to go to a childless or single dog household, by the way. Couldn’t figure out who they were actually adopting dogs to, since from my end I thought I had everything they would want — dog centered life, house with fenced yard in rural area with easy access to river swimming and hiking, dog friendly work place, experience with BCs, etc. Great advice on getting involved if you want a dog from a highly competitive breed-focused rescue.

I should clarify there are very good animal behaviorists, that’s not what I meant. Just that theory in and of itself does not, in my personal experience, have anything on trainers who have dealt with dog after dog. ESPECIALLY people who have trained dogs to do tasks as difficult and nuanced as stockwork. I also commend any budding behaviorist who is learning, and think this is a fantastic place to do so.

Hi from me, Odin, and new pup Phaedra! the posters here helped me raise what many IRL call “the best dog ever”, so hang around! I work with a lot of PHDs in animal behavior (I’m a plant ecologist) and no offense, none of them have had anything on real experience with dog training and especially stockwork training. For auto ball launcher...no, no, no, I would never go there with any dog but especially not a BC. I’m not even a concerted effort to teach my new dog how to rapid fetch, instead we are teaching names of specific toys and she is to go fetch these by name from another room I fully expect her to get fantastic at fetch anyway but mainly I have had to tone down Odin’s fetch focus, even with lots of tricks in between etc. But a magic machine that the dog can develop “ideas” about? Would not recommend. recall, in no particular order - a lot of long, light line work. Treating with food and toys (tug). Early on (like you are now) try not to recall if you suspect they will not come. Every successful recall is a “dollar” in your bank account for recalls, and every blown recall is a $10 withdrawal from that same account. So if you think about that and figure your “account” is already seriously in the red, consider switching the recall word and starting from scratch. It took us 1.5 years, but Odin’s recall is rock solid. Can call off chasing deer, sheep, a ball, whatever.. and you aren’t there yet, but when you start seeing success with intro and modest recall efforts (low/moderate distraction), you build and build. It would be great if you would share a bit more detail exactly where you are in the recall training process - describe typical failures and successful times. Final idea- I train stays and recalls in tandem. When you have them stay, and back away with a treat or toy, they want to come to you. Have them stay, and the reward for staying is to get recalled to you (with command) and then They get the treat or tug or praise TOO ! for your schedule whatever works for you both is good I personally prefer to eat before my dogs, and they are not to bother me while I eat. In return for sitting very quietly and non-pestily at my feet they occasionally - and this is important, sparingly and at random during good behavior- get a tiny bit of cheese, meat, or egg that is not too spiced. It took a while to get to that point, obviously. last advice- impulse control training! Make impulse control your watchword ;-) good luck! Ooky

13.5 weeks!

Welcome to the boards! Lots of really great trainers here, come back or have your son come back as you have questions.

Thanks everyone! So good to “see” familiar faces here, and I’m excited to catch up with all of you and your packs too We went to our river today (private neighborhood beach). Her ears are starting to stand up! I love my red girl! And, though puppyhood is taxing in some ways - I’m sleep deprived and covered in mosquito bites from outside potty breaks — I have to say so far I love living in a multidog house! I wasn’t sure what to expect, I’ve only ever had one dog. But Odin and I dog sit fairly often and I’m happy to see it’s only even better when it’s your own second dog.

Been a long time since I posted! I still see many familiar faces here so hopefully some will remember Odin and I. In celebration of Odin turning 10 this June, we got a new puppy a couple weeks ago - Phaedra (Phae). She is from fully working parents, second cross on the parents after the first cross are doing very well on stock. She comes from cattle lines - at her ranch there weren't even any sheep for training, just practice steers She supposedly is likely to have a lot more style when working than Odin - more eye, which should be a big learning experience for me. I adore her completely, but importantly so does Odin. For an only dog, he has been SO patient, playful, and seriously helpful to me and my husband. Very little snark from him and what snark there is seems entirely appropriate to direct towards a Tasmanian devil of a puppy. He's not thrilled that she gets so many treats and toys, but we have really upped his toy access (we've been a mostly toy free house for years to cut down on obsessive fetching) and his training and treats as well. So that helps. I can't get over how much she loves him and how cute they are together, playing bitey face, running together, her getting the zoomies after they play. Also, now I have an entourage when I change from room to room. She's not doing as well with our cat Bast, but that situation is improving. Unlike when I first started posting here, I understand fully now what inappropriate behaviors towards other pets I need to be looking for. She was staring at the cat in a way I didn't like, and trying to flank her. When the cat stood her ground, it was ok, but if the cat left, or god forbid ran away, she HAD to chase. She spent a couple days in nearly-unable-to-deal levels of fixation on the cat, including fixating on the door to the room where the cat was (because of course I separated them). But the cat couldn't stay isolated forever so we have been tying her to our waists any time they aren't separated, and using a combination of corrections and body pressure when she is doing badly on the leash or obsessing over the door to the room the cat was in. Now she and the cat have had several interactions (on leash) where they touch noses, interact in a much less "herdy" way, and even wrestle (initiated by the cat). This seems to have decreased her obsession levels quite a bit. Those of you who have raised multiple border collies will laugh at me, but she is so different from Odin! She seemed more brave with people at first, but stresses like the car seem to upset her more. She's extremely stubborn about potty and crate training, he was so easy to train! But her focus when working on sit, down, watch me, leave it, etc are truly amazing and beyond what I remember him being able to do. And she is dramatic. But also so much more cuddly than Odin so far - he didn't like being cuddled or picked up even as a small pup, and she is fine with it and even loves it. Anyway, I hope to start a thread to track her growth and progress soon - I think I need to figure out Flickr and all that again to post pictures in the messages here the way you'd want to for that type of thread. Hope all here are well and I am sure I will be asking for lots of advice from more experienced posters over the next year. The puppy experience is worth it but I certainly don't always feel like I know what I am doing!

What you describe for Jester reminds me of Odin's reaction to raw - unpredictable and often with diarrhea. It only got worse the more I tried to feed him. Now, he only gets the very occasional bite of raw lamb or beef that I consider good enough quality that I would eat bloody rare myself. I have gotten to the point where I do think raw feeding is somewhat of a fad - and I understand why, it was fun to feed him different, whole foods and he obviously seemed to love it going in. It turns out he can eat all of the meats that gave him major issues as long as they are cooked, and as far as I'm concerned that is fine for treats or to up or diversify his meat content occasionally. But after a few years I just felt the diarrhea and contamination risks weren't worth it.

That makes sense, thanks for answering my nosy and jealous question I am so glad she ended up with you. Whether she stays with you or not I know she's going to have a great life because of what you've done and are doing for her.