Ninso

I didn't read all of the replies thoroughly, so this may have been mentioned already. I think a person can certainly have a well-trained dog on their own, but I do think whether that is possible depends on the skill of the person in dog training as well as the time and dedication put in. A good foundational knowledge of learning/training theory and the many different techniques possible will only help you. If you don't want to take a class, I would definitely recommend doing all the reading you can on dog training. But if you CAN take a class, there is no reason not to. YOU still trained the dog, whether you took a class or not. A class can simply help YOU fine-tune your training techniques. Perhaps they don't need any fine-tuning, or perhaps you are okay with muddling through. Personally, for my dog's sake, I'd rather do the least muddling possible. An intelligent dog like Sam really appreciates a trainer who communicates clearly and efficiently and that is often times a learned skill for us humans. Personally I would rather be able to say "I understand how to communicate with my dog in the best way possible" than "**I** taught this dog everything he knows, even though I confused him a good bit along the way and we could have done it faster and less "painfully"(not talking physical pain here) had I put my ego aside." Again, I have no idea what your level of skill is, so take this for whatever it's worth. Additionally, classes are helpful just for the experience of training in a distracting environment. My dogs generally "know" all the class material before I get them into a class. We go for the practice and the distractions. Just a quick example to show you what I mean. I have an old trick training book that talks about how to teach a dog to lift a hind leg. The book advises tickling the dog under the leg until it picks the leg up and then holding it there for awhile. This may work but I can't imagine how long it would take and I can't imagine how confused the dog would be in the process. I taught my female dog the exact same trick in just a couple short sessions using shaping and clicker training. There is more than one way to do anything, but some ways are just better than others. Again, this is NOT to say you're doing things wrong, but you asked about the benefit of classes v. going it alone, so there you have it.

Bear was always one of my favorite dogs on these boards. I'm so sorry to hear about your loss!

Yes, it's important to spend a lot of time practicing different throws without the dog. I remember how much trouble I had just spinning the disc in place when I first started. And yes, when you spend a lot of time doing a trick one way and then try to change it, it may take a bit for the dog to adjust. Rather than 6 inches higher, maybe try your flip throws 3 inches higher and gradually build up. From what I saw, she has the hops for it. Work on spinning the disc for your overs and rather than spinning "at the last second" spin it while she's a stride or two away. If the disc moves slightly at the last second she'll miss it, but if she's a stride or two away when you make the toss she'll have enough time to adjust for it, even if it is a little wobbly. If you have particular questions, feel free to PM me. I don't check these boards much anymore but I'll get email alerts of a PM. K9disc has gone through a lot of technical changes in the past year or so, and I think has lost a lot of people who used to post regularly. Hopefully it gets built back up though.

Good stuff! Check out K9disc.com if you haven't already. Tons of good training info. Your backhands look great, you might want to consider working on some different releases, e.g., side-arm, overhand wrist flip, etc, to add some variety. Your flips look nice, but you might want to think about throwing the disc just a tad higher and being more consistent in placement. The second one and the last couple looked nice. Isis seems to flip best with the disc fairly vertical and placed directly over her body. Experiment with placing it forwards or backwards along her body. Isis has a nice jump, you can challenge her a bit more. On your overs, get the disc a bit higher so she can really jump for it--right now the placement is too low and making it hard for her to jump. Also rather than doing a take, start to transition to actually spinning the disc a bit and letting go of it so it floats on its own for a few seconds. Make sure you're releasing it early enough when you do this. You should make the throw while Isis is still a stride or two away so she has time to plan her jump for the disc. Tug and rollers are great for rewards and drive building! And one last thing, 15 minutes is a LONG disc traning session. Fifteen minutes a day is quite a lot. My dogs train generally in sessions not much longer than 5 minutes a few times a week. Occasionally I'll train longer, but I'll make sure to give the dog a day or two off after that. Overtraining is a really easy way to kill drive and you want the dog to be absolutely CRAZY for the disc every time you take it out!

I've been meaning to pick a couple of these up! We play ball every night in the dark after I get home from work. I've lost countless chuck-it balls already, rolling under the fence, getting thrown over the fence, getting carried into the bushes and not carried back out. Those things are expensive and we have months of dark left to go. Thanks for the review!

My first dog Lok took about 9 months to completely settle in and show me his personality as I now know it. He was at first extremely withdrawn, spent most of his time off by himself in a corner, was easily stressed, didn't play and didn't seem to know how to interact with people. These things all gradually changed over several months. He is still kind of an odd one, but he interacts with people, and plays. I kind of knew he had "arrived" when he started playing with toys. He turned into a bit of a maniac, but at least he started enjoying life once in awhile. My second dog Jun was the opposite. She was manic until she settled in. It didn't take as long, and she is a really busy dog, so she still runs circles quite a bit. I can't remember how long it took her to settle in, but probably not more than a month. The "settling in" was marked by better ability to relax and focus. My current foster, Elo, walked right in and decided it was home. I'm trying to convince him otherwise!

Both of my dogs are on Orijen and both are doing great--in fact, one of them has only been able to keep weight on with a very high protein food like Orijen. if your dogs are fat, it's because you're feeding them too much. Both of my dogs (42lbs and 37lbs) eat 1 1/2 cups of Orijen a day.

How about playing fetch with them one at a time?

So nice to finally see your Meg! She is a beauty!

Olivia's suggestion is what I would have suggested. Possibly you're trying to move too fast with it. For something like this, depending on how bad the problem is, it may take a few hours or more the first time to get out the door, but the next time it should take significantly less time, and exponentially less after that. I have a somewhat similar problem with my dog bolting out the door (he waits for permission, but once he gets it, he's OFF, potentially injuring himself and me in the process). I've been teaching him relaxation at the door. Our first session took nearly two hours, first waiting for him to relax just sitting on the steps at the door, then with my hand on the doorknob, then with the door slightly open, then relaxing on the landing in front of the door, then with the storm door open, etc) . Now it takes less than 5 minutes most times. We still go through each step, but it takes much less time. Still it's difficult because the level of excitement about going outside is so high. Break down the steps you take in getting ready to go outside into tiny little increments. At what point does Cheyenne get excited and start barking? Do that step (putting on your shoes, or whatever it may be). When she starts barking, immediately undo that step (e.g., take off your shoes) and go do something else. Make sure you're not standing there waiting for her--that's giving her attention. Just go about your business like normal. When she is calm, try again. And this may take SEVERAL tries. Only when she is calm at step one would you move on to the second step (e.g., picking up the leash). Repeat the process. This is also something you will need to be absolutely consistent with. If you're in a hurry one day and just let her bark, you will quickly undo all the work you have put in. Oh, and definitely don't let her get to the point that is so worked up she's grabbing at you. If that's the case, you've gone way too far, way too fast. Good luck!

I've had Jun for a year and never needed one until now. She also sticks close and checks in. But I've recently discovered how useful it would be to be able to call her back sometimes when she's not looking at me. I'd like her to be able to be off leash and lately she's been roaming more. So thought we'd give it a try.

I just got a PetSafe brand "Pet Pager" collar for Jun. It has a range of 100 yards, vibrates only, and cost about $70 on Ebay. I can't say how it compares to any others, as it's the only one I've tried. I think the vibration could be stronger, but Jun seems to be able to feel it no problem. All the others I looked at had lower range or also had shock options.

I chat to my dogs all the time--but usually only about things that involve them! I'm not one to give my dogs a play-by-play of how my day went. If we're working, I make my commands clear--one simple command, and wait for the response--but I am liberal with praise and encouragement. I think my mostly-blind dog Lok has started to really appreciate verbal direction and encouragement more than he used to. When I first adopted him and started working with him, he seemed to find the high, squeaky, happy voice annoying. But now, for whatever reason, he really seems to like when I talk to him, especially in a soft high-pitched voice. I'm not sure if it's his increasing blindness or just that he's come to like it. My deaf dog . . . I talk to her all the time, too, but it doesn't make one bit of difference. I think you can chatter at your dogs too much. If it gets to a point where they're tuning out most of what you say as irrelevant, that could affect their response to commands, I imagine. But I think our border collies like to hear us talk, more than other breeds. Lok, at least, always listens with interest and tries to figure out if what I'm saying has any meaning for him.

Glad to hear you've found something you and Meg both enjoy!

I am very sorry to hear this! I hope you know that most board members here, including myself, have the utmost respect for the immense amount of time, energy and resources you put into working with Pan. You did everything you could. I hope you find peace and comfort in that knowledge, even though I'm sure this is still very difficult for you.

Great! (Not that she's deaf, but that you figured it out.) If you want any deaf dog advice, feel free to PM me. I'm learning as I go with my first one, but we've figured out a fair amount so far.

The first three traits sound like my dog Jun! She will often stare and bark at nothing. She's always been an odd one, but this started out of the blue a few months ago. I think she does it for attention, and she's been getting better, since I've been ignoring it. She also has always paced in circles and chased her tail. She doesn't yip at the same time, but she will bark/growl at her tail. She also sleeps like the dead whenever she sleeps, but she is deaf, so noises don't disturb her. I have to touch her or stomp on the ground to wake her up. She doesn't always realize when she is tired, so sometimes when she's running in circles, I will put her in her crate and she'll be out like a light in a couple minutes. Sounds like your girl needs some structure, and a job to do. Jun was quite insane, and even more OCD than she is now, when I got her at 8 months old, never having had any of either, but now is almost an easy dog to live with!

Oh, really?! Thanks for the tip!!

Great topic! I think that most things can be taught to most dogs, but I do believe that certain dogs have certain limitations. For example, a Basset hound is not going to be the best breed to choose if you want to do competetive obedience. That's not to say that a Basset hound can't do competetive obedience, but there is a reason most people don't choose the breed for that purpose. Some dogs are going to be easy to teach a recall, for others it will be more difficult. I like to assume that a good, skilled trainer who has the time and dedication to teach a skill will be able to do it--it saves me from getting frustrated and upset with my dogs. To answer your question directly, I've largely (but not completely) given up on teaching Lok loose-leash walking, but I guess I can't honestly say that I've been as diligent in working on it as I could have been. I just don't walk him very often now. We play fetch for exercise instead, and he enjoys this more, so I'm okay with it. He has gotten a bit better on his own, as long as there is not something very exciting in front of him. He is about 3.5 years old.

As I recall, I used "picnik" --a free online photo editing program to get the two pictures together in one image, then saved that image to my computer, then uploaded it to photobucket, then just copied the img code (or whatever you call it) into my signature line just like you would add photos to a post. Does that help?

You've gotten great advice already. I don't really have anything to add. Sometimes it would be nice if we could just put our border collies out in the yard and expect them to exercise themselves (without doing anything we don't like), but that's just not usually going to be the case. Border collies want to be interacting with YOU. Your dog will probably be much more content just hanging out in the house with you and watching you do whatever you need to do, as long as she has structured play/training time with you at some point each day.

Respect has nothing to do with fear. I would disagree that dogs even have a concept of "respect." Usually when people talk about the fact that a dog does/should obey out of "respect" they mean that the dog should simply recognize the fact that the dog is naturally inferior to the human and obey for that reason alone. But if that was a natural concept to a dog, there would be no disobedient dogs. Usually in those cases, it is the human who thinks he/she is naturally superior to the dog, and thus had a right to treat his/her dog in any way he/she pleases. Dogs don't obey commands out of respect. They obey because they have been motivated to do so, either out of a desire to avoid unpleasant consequences or out of a desire to produce pleasant consequences or because obeying has become a conditioned response through repeated use of either of the above. And love is a separate concept entirely. My dogs don't obey me because they love me (which I think they do) or because they "respect me" (which I don't believe dogs are capable of) but because I am the best thing in their world, that is, I control access to all the best things in their world.

Well of course it doesn't make sense when you say it that way! But that's not at all how it actually works in the hands of a person who is skilled at training through positive reinforcement. In the example of a dog who is barking at other dogs, the dog is not fed for barking, he is fed for the absence of barking. Thus, as long as the reward is more reinforcing than the barking, the dog will soon learn that barking gets him nothing and silence gets him a chance to earn a reward. If this method did not work, then millions of positive reinforcement trainers world-wide would not use it. Have you ever tried positive reinforcement training? Have you ever done any research on it? Based on your above-quoted comment, your dislike for it seems to be fueled by a complete lack of understanding as to how it works. Why not educate yourself on a topic before making claims about it? Of course positive reinforcement training is not going to be the answer for every dog or every behavior (I have a dog whose highly self-reinforcing barking I've only been able to cure through correction, specifically, a bark collar) but neither is the solution you have proposed, even if it has always worked for you. As for correcting aggression, my dog Jun is fear-aggressive towards children. She is a rescue that came to me at 8 months old and I can only assume she was never properly socialized with children. I am certain that I made her fear worse by correcting her the first few times she displayed the behavior (on the advice of a person who, like you, "does not tolerate" any aggression and responds only by correction). I am certain that if I corrected her as harshly as you corrected your pup, not only would her fear of children not be cured, but she would most likely develop a new fear of me as well. On the other hand, on the occasions I've had her around children it only takes a little time before she begins to realize on her own that they aren't going to hurt her and stops growling at them, as long as they stay a little distance away. If I had access to children to expose her to on a regular basis, I bet it wouldn't take long before she would overcome her fear on her own.

I have a deaf dog (born deaf) and a blind dog (going blind from PRA) too! "Disabled" dogs rock!! To answer your questions specifically: (1) Jun bonded with me no problem at all! She's a total velcro dog and rarely takes her eyes off me. Most of the time she is glued to my legs! I think it's common in deaf dogs and especially deaf border collies, who are already inclined to be "watchers" to be constantly watching you. (2) I have allowed Jun off leash in certain situations. Obviously in a fenced area there is no problem. I can recall her back to me as long as she's looking at me, and if she's in a safe, fenced area there is no problem with waiting for her to look at me. I have occasionally had her off leash in a non-fenced area as well when we are playing frisbee or fetch. She is obsessed with her toys, so she won't run off as long as I have them. However, recently she's become more reactive and if there are people around there is a risk that she will run up and bark at them, so she's lost her off-leash privileges for awhile. I just today ordered a vibrating collar so I can train her to recall to that before I let her off leash anymore. If the dog has a solid recall (to a signal it can perceive without looking at you), it's just as safe to have a deaf dog off leash as a hearing dog. (3) Jun does just fine with other dogs--loves playing with them, in fact. Any issues she has with other dogs are just dog issues and not "deaf dog" issues. (In fact, all of Jun's issues are just her insane personality and have nothing to do with being deaf.) I hear people say all the time that deaf dogs have a harder time communicating with other dogs, but I haven't found this to be true at all, and it really doesn't even make sense--dog communication is non-verbal and there is nothing wrong with her eyes or her brain. Occasionally she plays too rough with Lok and can't hear his quiet little whine, so I have to step in. Training can take some creativity, but is really no more difficult than with any other dog. Jun and I compete in disc dog and rally obedience, trained in flyball for several months before the schedule got too busy for that, and are working on skijoring. I plan to try agility with her at some point and know a lady in my obedience club that does agility with three deaf bull terriers. Feel free to PM me with any questions. They are really, really great dogs and hardly limited at all by their "disability." Nobody even knows Jun is deaf until I specifically point it out. And then, a lot of people don't believe me!

Whoops, meant to PM this.