Houndstooth

I just wanted to say that Julie was correct about what I meant by "correct and move on". Since it was apparently misunderstood, I will say that specifically, when I see one of my dogs approaching me looking ready to jump up, and I don't want them to, I will say something like "ah" or "stay off" and turn slightly away from them. Aside from the fact that there are often times when I don't mind them jumping up, I just don't see jumping up as enough of an issue to be worth spending time training for, or against. My dogs don't look fearful about it, and are certainly willing to approach me at another time and essentially ask if they can jump up now. I'm not a brilliant trainer, but it's pretty easy to tell what is an appropriate correction for an individual dog. I will also say, I rarely praise my dogs, on or off sheep, for doing what I ask them to do - I just don't see that they need it. They're quite capable of knowing when things are going well, and don't need constant affirmation from me. I save the affection for when we're just hanging out, and nothing else is going on. As far as corrections shutting a dog down, robot dog vs. thinking dog, I don't how many times I've heard stockdog trainers/handlers say that they would rather have a dog that does the wrong thing than nothing. Angelique

Julie, I guess what stirred me to post is that you seemed to be equating what I would consider a fair correction (rapping a dog on the nose for hanging on to a sheep), with whatever this guy is doing. I understand where you are coming from as far as training, I also look at all dog training from the perspective of training a sheepdog, and it seems to me that one of the hallmarks of that kind of training is being very clear to the dog about what you want - the opposite of video (at least as I saw it.) I guess that's what offended me about the video, and made it difficult for me to understand why stockdog trainers would defend it. That said, I do see your point. Angelique

I just wonder at the vehemence of the defense - no, obviously it isn't the worst thing ever done to a dog, but hardly necessary. And then to equate it somehow to training a stockdog just seems pointless, at best. It is unfortunate that to some all correction is "mean", but I don't think it justifies defending bad training. To mum24dog - first I will say I agree with most of your posts, however I feel a proper correction is conveying information to a dog. I know it has been said before, but corrections don't need to be hard (let alone "mean" which implies taking a certain pleasure in "punishing" the dog), to be effective. It is just telling a dog not to do something, simply and directly. Every dog I've owned has been quite capable of understanding that. Angelique

I found the "training" in the video very unappealing, and I do come from the perspective of someone that trains dogs for stockwork. I've worked border collies for 20 years, in that time I've taken many lessons and clinics. Personally I've never seen a decent sheepdog trainer poke and nag at a dog. I also don't see much comparison between a happy, excited dog jumping up on people, and a dog harassing sheep. Why not just give the dog a quick correction for jumping up, then move on? Is continuously poking at a dog really so effective that it needs to be defended as a training method? Angelique

I have an 8 yr. old bitch (who is actually an aunt to Jett) who has the same behavior. However with her, it has nothing to do with bitch on bitch, rather she attacks dogs that are submissive/passive. Her current favorite victim of my dogs is my 5 yr. old Toss (male), who sounds very similar to Fly. He never even defends himself, let alone fights back, and I'm quite sure he does nothing to incite her - other than to exist. Basically, she will attack dogs that she thinks she can get away with it with. When I got my now 3 yr. old Taff at 5 mos., she attacked him. He gave back as good as he got, and she's left him alone since. I've found no solution other than management. She is always crated in the house, and I supervise closely outside. For her, the primary triggers are dooways, gateways, and smallish areas. I always keep myself between her and Toss, and warn her off when I see her giving him a hard look. Once she attacks, she has to be physically removed and carried away (fortunately she only weighs about 30 lbs.!), as nothing else will stop her. BTW, she started with it at 7 wks., when she attacked my mom's old (male) JRT. At 4 mos. she attacked the old (male) GP that lived at the farm where I was working. She also hates my 14 yr. old bitch Dot, although only attacks when Dot is under the weather. She has no issues at all with my 6 yr. old bitch.