Amelia

I thought of a good analogy for trained imported dogs making the switch. I'm a good driver. Been doing it for years with many miles spent driving long distance, pulling various trailers with and without livestock. I've driven big trucks, those old-style 5-horse vans, loaded, manual-trans, old and new. Come to find out, I'm afraid of driving a right-hand-drive car. On a trip to the UK, I got behind the wheel of one and said "forget it." I was pretty sure I would crash. I just needed some time. And so do some dogs when they change hands and get over here.

I'm late to the party. Was directed here by a friend after she learned I had a Tanhill Glen daughter. I have not, but will have her tested for this mutation as a result of this thread. At 8 months, she's perfectly healthy with no behavioral issues. Have put her to sheep a few times and she's showing me some class. While the genetic side of this discussion may be worthy, the denigration of Tanhill Glen as a sire based on working ability and prepotency is not, in my opinion. I bought my pup after seeing a son that I liked very much and because I had faith in the bitch. My pup will either make it as a working dog or not, which is the same thing I've said about every pup I've started. I've put some very well bred pups into hobby and pet homes. It's the downside of multiple births, don't you think? To criticize how this dog runs is to assume that all handlers are equally talented. An utterly silly hypothesis. My experience with purchasing trained dogs is that it takes every day of a year for them to begin to approach their potential with me. One of mine wouldn't take a flank off me for the first 3 months I owned him and got lost on the OR in the beginning more times than I care to remember. I never lost faith in him and he was one of the bravest, most powerful dogs I've ever owned. It took him time to shift from one type of handler, weather, sheep, terrain, flora and fauna. EVERYTHING was different for him, especially my whistles no matter how hard I tried to make them sound like what I heard on the recorder. So, why do you judge a dog negatively based on his performance with an inexperienced hand? And how long was the dog in the hands of the person who ran him at the BG before he struggled there? There's a back story here and there always is. I'm not saying it's the case with Tanhill Glen, but very good dogs can go very bad in the wrong hands. I see them at every trial I go to. So you say "well he can either lift sheep and move them on the drive or not." And I say how is he being trained and handled at home? I've seen very powerful dogs unable to use it because of they way they were handled. And if you haven't, you're not paying attention. Welcome to our sport, Mr. Drake. My strongest recommendation is to ignore the haters...

Dear Mr. McCaig, I hope this is of some value to you. I was taught that it's always the nut at the wheel. Just about whatever the problem, I'm either causing it, not asking properly, or not training properly to mitigate. Regardless of how talented you are, I would take the UK time to get the highest quality instruction I could find, and become a better hand. That's exactly what I did when I was over, and it changed everything about the way I handle and train my dogs. I continue to do so here whenever I'm anywhere close to someone who's opinion I value. Cheers and safe travel.

Hello all, If I know you and trust you, or if you are a friend of someone I know and trust who will vouch for you, I have a 6 month old spayed female available for free. She's pretty, well-mannered, smart, athletic and healthy. Up to date on shots and flea/tick treatment and just wants to be your buddy. She's just not at all interested in livestock. That may change, but there are no guarantees. Not housebroken, because my dogs are crated when they come in. Don't know about kids. Don't have any, but she's great with other dogs. Submissive, clean in her kennel, doesn't bark. Smart and quick, I would think she would make a wonderful sport dog. I will not pay to ship her, but will get her to the airport on time. I would want my crate returned. See photos attached and please email me if you're interested. amelia4079 (@) gmail (dot) com Thanks all, Amelia

Hello all, Watching ill treatment of any dog anywhere disgusts me. At a dog trial, I speak up. I'm a known entity there, and either the culprit will just stop, or at least move away where I don't have to watch. The heartbreak comes in knowing that it will just start up again some other place, some other time but that knowledge will never deter me. One year at Meeker, me, Virgil Holland, and at least one other handler, who I can't recall, witnessed a visiting cowdog *big hat* (visiting, not running,) repeatedly hitting his young female over the head in a useless attempt to calm her in the presence of sheep on the field. She was keen, you see. It wasn't even his dog! All of us spoke up, and you should too. Did it make any difference? Only in knowing that we tried. I moved away. I once witnessed an open handler treating her dog in such a completely whitless and unfair manner, that I was wholly unable to remain quiet. An uncommonly nice dog, he had STRESS written all over him, and I know that he lives with that treatment to this day. At a big trial, surrounded by many other hands, I didn't want to make a scene. I did want to club her over the head with a metal chair, but stripes make me look fat. What to do? I quietly shamed her. I said that I could see she was struggling with her dog and asked whether it would it be helpful if I walked him for her. Luckily for me, and sadly for the dog, she declined mouthing some totally unsurprising and uncommonly lame excuse, but she did stop picking at him at least in that moment. Lucky for me, because I would not have returned the dog for continuing torture, and can you imagine how you all would have been shellacked me for that one? After all she's a OPEN handler and you see her name on running orders! She MUST be wonderful! A very popular open handler (and judge) was once turned into his local association for beating his dog at a trial. He was prevented from trialing in that area for a year. With hope he learned his lesson, but there's always the home field. Currently in my kennel I have a dog that I spent 2 years rescuing. I knew the dog was in trouble from the very start, but I also knew that short of stealing him, the best I could do was convince the owner to voluntarily hand him over. With the man's rampaging ego, it would have to be his idea. So, I planted some seeds which took 2 agonizing years to bear fruit. And finally, one of our sport's illustrious heroes is one of the worst abusers of dogs that I've ever known of. He might even be in the hall of fame. It is one of our dirty *open* secrets. To ignore abuse in any form is to condone it. For me, it's less important how I confront abuse than the fact that I do. Maybe communication with a trial host, direct confrontation with the abuser, a letter, a phone call, a forum discussion, maybe exposure and discussion of our dirty *open* secrets. Will it end abuse? No, but at least they won't do it in front of me ever again. I can live with that. Cheers all,

Hey, Dwight Parker's listed on their "Border Collie Trainers" page. Isn't he an HA cow dog guy too?

http://youtu.be/e4nT94AYsVo Video evidence of the cross-pollination between puppy mills and AKC. I have written to the rescue documented here asking them to re-consider their affiliation with HSUS, but this story is too important not to be told.

This is so true, it hurts...

Kristen, you have to register on their site and confirm your email address to be able to post, but it is so worth the effort. And it may be of some small service to some dog somewhere. At least that's my hope. Terrecar, Pedigree Dogs Exposed was about the catastrophic effects to dogs of breeding for whimsical and arbitrary breed standards, the denial and secretive, cult-like behavior associated with that. I don't care which KC registers them, the message in that documentary is loud and clear, plain as day. "Kicking the bully?" How about leaving in tact the head of the snake?

The Today Show reported a scathing expose' on the AKC. See it here. Jeff Rossen reported on the cover up of the relationship between the AKC and puppy mill breeders that many of us have been aware of for years and years. The AKC supports and promotes the registration of puppy mill dogs for the money. They ignore the suffering of dogs FOR THE MONEY. Last I looked, attached to this story on The Today Show website are 1286 comments from 647 AKC apologists overwhelmingly supporting the AKC and condemning Today. My question is why? Why, when we finally have a chance to support and promote the truth about the AKC, do we sit by and do nothing? It appears that Rossen's reporting IS biased and manipulative as those individuals claim, because there is no rebuttal from those of us who know the truth about the AKC. Unfortunately, Rossen interviewed Wayne Pacelle form HSUS in his reporting. We all know that organization is no better, but we also know that HSUS involvement IS NOT the story. It is being used as SMOKE SCREEN. The story is that the AKC condones the suffering of puppy mill dogs FOR THE MONEY. That in itself should cause us to burn up our keyboards in support of the story with facts of our own. But nothing...or at least not much. Why? I've left comments twice. Each time stating that the story is great, but it's not the full story. I suggested they google Wyndlair Avalanche and the BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed, and produce another report that digs deeper into the atrocities of the AKC. Why don't you?

Hello all, Not all dogs are born with power. It never develops sufficiently in some, and occasionally a dog may "grow" power as it matures, depending on how they're handled. For me, "how they're handled" is the key. So, if my youngster is cautious, hesitant, or downright afraid at any point while he's working, I help it. In other words, I go straight to the dog and aid him in whatever he's failing at, and I do that until he becomes confident and doesn't need me, or until I decide power is not within him. You say you did that on your round up of free sheep, then quit and let her figure it out on her own. Keep helping her. If she's giving up and lying down when the going gets tough, she still requires assistance. I set up exercises that stimulate courage while I'm still helping the dog find power. I set a gate to open when sheep bump it. Then with me helping the dog, we drive them through it. When that gate opens and the sheep move through, I step back and let the dog enjoy its' success whatever happens next. Usually they head them and bring them back, so I set it up again. Gradually, I make the gate harder to open and keep working at it until the dog doesn't need me. I will help a dog load sheep in a trailer or pen, and then help them go in and bring them back out. Similar to the gate exercise, it's fun and exciting for the dog and you can see their confidence grow. With a weak dog, I sometimes teach them to shed. Holding sheep that are trying to break creates excitement. When work is fun and exciting, courage is easier to find. I suggest putting a grip command on your dog. The ability to grip on command may not help her over all power, but at least you may have a way to accomplish a day's work. I suggest using sheep appropriate to the dog's ability. If yours are sour or worn out, they'll not help your dog in the power department. Get some fresh sheep and be ready to help. Good luck

Hi Marcia, you got an awful lot of response to questions you did not ask. The answer to your question is a resounding YES, you can successfully train a 3 year old dog. And since you are willing to help a struggling family in dire straits, I'll bet things will work out better than you could ever have hoped for. Life is funny that way, isn't it? If you have enough room, love, money, patience, time to care for such a dog...go for it. Give it a try. The very worst that can happen is you'll have helped an unfortunate animal that is losing its' family, and you will have more love in your life. I see from your profile that you are a homesteader and farmer. You likely know more than you think. I'm so sorry about your neighbors heartbreak. Best

From personal experience, here's what I know about epilepsy in dogs. Brains teach themselves to seize, so each seizure increases the liklihood of another. Dr. Jean Dodds has done work that is nothing short of miraculous with seizure dogs, and I would go to her immediately asking for her 5-panel thyroid test, and recommendations. The sooner the better. http://www.hemopet.org/ Her website. Epilipsy can sometimes be controlled with drugs other than debilitating phenobarbitol and potassium and sodium bromide. Soloxine, a thyroid hormone, can dramatically reduce/control/eliminate seizures in some (hypothyroid) dogs. So can diet, timed feedings, and titer tests instead of vaccinations. So much great info in this thread. Thanks so much everyone.

I believe the effects of over-vaccinating/medicating our dogs is understated. For me, less is more. No scientific data to back up my personal beliefs, just experience keeping livestock healthy. When left to recover on their own as much as possible, animals always seemed to do better and remain healthier. And I'm a huge fan of Dr. Dodds. Her work with canine thyroid studies is amazing. She's personable, approachable and communicative. I would send bloodwork off straight away if I had a dog with issues from epilepsy to skin problems to anxiety. She sees beyond standard protocols and the almighty dollar.

We get what we think/talk about. If you want a working dog, breed the best to the best and hope for the best regardless of color. If you want a specific color, coat type, breed for that. You cannot have it both ways. If you're breeding for one, you are breeding against the other for all practical intents and purposes. You can argue with that, find all kinds of examples, and you might be right to some extent. But it's still the best rule of thumb in a mind field of variables. When I choose a puppy, I could not care less what color, what coat type, what ear set, whether its' mouth is black, eye color, etc., etc, etc. I care only for the working traits in the mother, father, and immediate forebearers (grandparents) that are important to me. First and foremost of those is the outrun. Your chances of finding a good working dog are far greater within blk/wht, blk/wht/brwn simply because there are more good ones in that range than in any other variation. And since you are a novice, BCLuvr, I suggest shooting at the biggest target. As a novice, I would not suggest breeding at all. How do you know what you are assessing in the dogs you are breeding? It would be like me making wine. I have no earthly idea what type grapes, where best to buy them, how much water, how long to soak? how best to store, in what materials, or at what temp. Truly good working dogs are so hard to find, that if you limit yourself by color and coat type, it becomes almost hopeless. As you become skillful at handling sheepdogs, good trumps appearance every, single time by a vast measure. Plan ahead.

Vandog's post makes no sense. Why would a trainer(s) "retire" a 6 year old dog? And why would a trainer(s) put a working dog through a miller's auction? Vandog, please explain. What kind of auction? What kind of stockdog trainer? What kind of dog? Oh, hell; who?

A sale? I'm only aware of 2 working dog sales in the US. Red Bluff and Denver Stock Show. It couldn't have been either of those, because a resuce would have to pay good money to get those dogs. What sale? Where? What kind of sale?

Revenue is revenue, Donald, and, I guarantee that cessation of income would change the AKC incontrovertibly. I'm speaking from an abundance of personal experience here. So, without caring a whit who I offend, let's put it this way; If you care about the well being of dogs in our country, if you own a dog, if you love a dog, and you give so much as one, thin, dime, or an iota of support to the AKC for any reason, in any way, you are a moron. In fact, if you don't advocate for dogs by speaking out against the AKC every chance you get, you are a moron. Boy, we really have drifted off topic, haven't we? But any opportunity to disparage the AKC is a good opportunity to me. Out of curiosity, Donald, would you please define "political struggle" in simple terms for me? Thank you. I'm very happy to wage war on another front. Cheers all,

Hello all, As with all things, I feel that education is the key. We've all known good and bad breeders, rescues, buyers, sellers, owners. They will exist as long as *we* the general public, put up with it. Supply and demand. Puppy mills will exist as long as there are buyers. Backyard breeders will breed as long as there is response to their ad/sign/whatever. Culture & socio-economics will perpetuate dogs left in tact until there is understanding. I have knowledgable friends who honestly believe spaying/neutering is physically harmful to their dogs. Maybe it is, but how great is the risk when weighed against another *oops* breeding? Even in our own sport, how often have we seen handlers breed really crummy dogs, because they just loved 'em so much? Or because they are resolutely kennel blind? Or because they have absolutely no idea what they are looking at/assessing? All the time! But then you hear about these mediocre (at best) dogs "on a ranch working 500 ewes/cows/whatever." Yes but how well, and are they spayed/neutered? Or is the ranch owner just as ignorant about assessment? People, you can buy better dogs than you can breed without being part of the problem! And I love this question; "If there is no breeding, where will I buy my dog?" Realistically, how long before we have to worry? Not in my lifetime, and frankly, that is a problem I welcome. Much easier to solve than "we kill upwards of 3 millions dogs in this country each and every year." Much easier than; "He dies today!" Far more easily than; "I'm going to breed 'em and make some money!" You ran across a rabid FB group. Right or wrong at least they're on the right side of dog over-population. I advocate no breed/no kill and rescue all the time. I don't breed, I have rescued and fostered/found homes for the homeless. I don't hate anybody, but I'm dismayed, it seems like every single day... Stop the madness!

It's interesting to me that you stated these issues independently, and at opposite ends of your post. When I put them together, I see a very likely answer to your problem. Your whistles aren't consistent, or clear, and your dog's hearing is questionable. Sort of like me mumbling to someone hard of hearing, like my mother. I always had to speak very clearly to her. Conincidentally, she was deaf in one ear as well. I wouldn't be too excited about getting distance on any part of the work, until I had it perfect at hand. And I wouldn't rely much on whistles until 1. I was proficient at them, 2. Had the dog driving happily, without hesitation, caution, or fear. 3. The dog was keen (fast, determined) to balance to me just off the movement of my body and maybe a little shush. It sounds to me like you need to let off the pressure, and step on the gas with movement. Sometimes we talk, whistle, shush so much that it chills a dog. Try being quiet, get the sheep moving, and let the dog have his sheep in a way that makes his excited. I would get this dog going before I worried about whistles or driving. Practice whistling alone in your car, or otherwise away from the dog. Also, make sure that each whistle is distinctly different from the other. Often some part of a whistle sounds like another command. The 1st part of your come-bye sounds like your lie down, and your stupid dog always lies down when you want it to come bye. That was the case with me when I was first learning how to handle. Took me a year and half, and help from a talented hand, to see MY mistake. Don't necessarily escalate your whistles if at first the dog won't take it. It depends. That's all I can tell you. Often when we escalate, we change them completely, blur them together, or even clip off what should be a tapering flank turning it into something else like a stop or down. There's lot of ways to go wrong with whistles. Sometimes the act of blowing a whistle too hard causes a dog to push back. That ends up looking like the dog won't stop when you blow stop, but he's actually tensing to the point where he can't stop. Main thing I would suggest is to be kind to your dog, because you are learning too. Try to find what makes him keen and happy no matter what you are doing, and build on that. Assume you are more than half of the problem, and experiment with different approaches until you find one your dog likes. Hope something in here helps.

No, I'm saying that the words "reputable" and "breeder" are mutually exclusive as they pertain to the AKC. Encarta dictionary definition of reputable: known to be honest, reliable, or respectable I don't care how much you care about or for your dogs. If you support an organization as malignant, malevolent and egocentric as the AKC, by association, you can not be reputable. Puppy mills, brachycephalics, MM breeding, immediate family in-breeds, and so much more misery is overtly or tacitly approved by the AKC. Why would anyone, for any reason and/or justification you can name, give a nickel to an organization that knowingly, with malice and aforethought, causes harm to dogs? It's not OK because Goldens have been regiestered that way for so long. It's not OK because theirs is the only event in town. It's not OK because it's the only way to make my dog a champion. It's not OK because everyone in my local club says so. IT's NOT OK! Go start your own registry, event, championship, club, and base it on good health and welfare instead of blind and rampant denial of the cold, hard facts. In the AKC, the emperor has no clothes and their "reputable breeders" haven't caught on yet. To me they look pretty foolish and in far too many instances, they look foolish and cruel.

No, the ILP program is being encouraged so that the AKC can generate more fees from breeders they would otherwise be forfeiting. You never have to wonder about motives of the AKC. Don't follow the dogs. Just follow the money. OK, lets talk about this for a moment. Reputable (AKC) breeder? Oxymoron. Example: Windlair Avalanche, from birth, a deaf and blind collie from a purposeful merle to merle breeding selfishly created to obtain a stud dog that produces merle litters. At 7 months they weighted and tipped his ears knowing they would/could never show him. What kind of depraved person would do any of that? A reputable (AKC) breeder. You say that's not reputable. Well the AKC and many other reputable (AKC) breeders say it is. His son was best of breed at Westminister, and this dog, some say was born not only without sight, but without eyes altogether, has become the #1 sire of collies and #1 producer of champion collies. It's a rare occasion you say? Ever heard of Cotton, the deaf/blind merle sheltie? Avalanche is not a rare occasion, he's the latest occasion, and what effect do you suppose his AKC success will have on the welfare of dogs? His pet-quality puppies sell for upwards of $1,000 according to his breeder's website. Do the math... Good job AKC. Where other clubs and registries have outlawed MM breeding, the AKC has made it best of breed. So, would a reputable (AKC) breeder sell a pup for designer dog breeding? As easily as they'd slip a fake testicle in a Dandy Dinmont...

You can dissect it 9 ways to Sunday, but it really is that simple for me. It is true, however, that my correction would be different towards an adult dog trying to take my arm off, versus a pup startled by the garbage truck, but the bottom line is the same. I make the rules so my dogs don't have to. Cheers all

Regarding agression, I don't think in terms of blame, I simply don't allow it. Regarding training, I once went into a lesson firmly beliving it was my dog's fault. It wasn't, and it took Bobby Henderson about 45 seconds to determine that. He explained, and the solution was so simple, it was embarrasing. Ever since then I've looked to myself first, and it's been very beneficial for my dogs. Cheers all, especially you Donald!

Can't remember the last time I put a hand on a dog while it was working. Sorry for the confusion. Donald, I see this as your responsibility completely. You didn't insure the safety of your sheep by effectively controling the dog in some way. I don't mean in a crate, or with a chain. I mean in whatever way is appropriate for you, and effective. You say your dog got into your sheep 3 times. 1st time, shame on the dog. 2nd and 3rd time, shame on you. We all become better hands when we look to ourselves first as the genesis of the problem, imo.