denice

I have heard even longer than 10 yrs but not sure anyone really knows. In hard non porous surfaces they can cleaned, disinfected, bleached ect but with porous surfaces like wood or even dirt there is not a good way to disinfect. Recently spoke to a DVM friend, his opinion is that the virus is pretty much everywhere any dogs go and the best is timely vaccines and limit exposure while pups are vulnerable - which is also another discussion - many do not agree on that either. Certain times of year we see more of it than others.

I have been very thankful for Border Collies stepping in when they sense I need help, even when I have given them ' no you stay here'. In particular my first bc saved my butt from a cow when I was checking on her calf. The cow had me down and grinding me into the dirt. Luke came running from the barn got between her and I did a jump grab and hang on her nose. She swung around and he continued at her so I was able to get up and out of the way. He at the least saved me from broken bones and quite possible saved my life. He and I were home alone so I had no chance of getting human help. That day and a couple other incidences have taught me Never go in a pasture without a good dog, even with sheep. Yes Luke earned his place for life. Not a great sheep dog, better with cattle. Didn't really matter if he worked another day in his life, he accompanied out to the pasture every day for years and his sheer presence changed the attitude of the stock. He passed away this Nov at 16, one of the happiest dogs I have known.

I have never had them vomit from the peroxide after that day it was given. My concern would be about the glove - are you sure she did not swallow more of it? I would also keep an eye on things to make sure she is eating and watch her stools make sure all is well there

For info on the Ohio valley club check with Paul or Leigh ann Tucker, not sure the status either.

I have had and have dogs now that run and play with others. My 5 yr olds play with pups and each other. I also have dogs that do not play with other dogs. I think generally a male and a female get along better than 2 females. My female border collies can be bitchy with each other more so than other dogs I have had. I have never had a problem with males getting along with other males except when a female is in heat. I personally like a couple years between my dogs but it is just that, personal preference.

I feel that most dogs have good easy recalls when young pups then reach an age when they are more likely to want to explore, sniff do their own thing. The more consistent and insistent we are the better they will be at all training. If we practice with them and up the distractions as they mature they will have better recalls. If we walk them on a leash daily and require them not to pull in 'exciting' situations they will get good at that. If we only walk them on a leash every 6 months then not so much. I will say that these 2 14 mo old sisters I have are just about the most consistent about recalls that I have ever had. This was accomplished in the pasture with sheep. Simply walked them through the sheep pasture first on a leash then long line then dragging a line and asked them to leave smells, sheep poo and moving sheep to come to me. Now on and off sheep the recall has remained excellent. Do not think it can get more distracting for a working dog than coming off moving sheep. We started small and gradually increased distracting the long line insured success and the reward was to be able go explore then work sheep once you came. Being totally consistent is the KEY. Consistent to the point that coming to me means close enough I can pet, touch take a collar if needed, not within 3 ft or half way. They have a different word if I just want them to head the way I am going or do not want them go further. Same with leash walking, no pulling, no going out to the end ect.

I havenot done any research to prove or disprove what is written here but here you go http://specialcollies.com/Collie%20Origins.htm

I do not envision being at a training class where a dog is uncomfortable around people and activity for a period of time and not allowed to go hide any different than tieing a dog in a spot in a house. Gentle Lake maybe you are assuming that the dog is never untied or in other situations and the uncomfortable situation is endless which I can see would be overly stressful. Obviously with each dog in each situation you need to pay attention to the particulars and adjust. Not one thing will work with every dog. I find many fearful dogs will not want treats bad enough for them to be very helpful in training, some dogs are chow hounds and it works well. I have found allowing the dog to continually 'escape' the threat of uncomfortable situation only reinforces it in their mind. Once the dog relaxes some and you remove it from the situation for a period it seems to be very different in their minds. Gradually they relax faster with continued exposure again not unlike going to a training class but I can do it any time an opportunity for teaching presents itself.

I totally agree with Liz. Teaching a dog a course on usually course broke sheep does not prepare them to use their instinct and intelligence when they are 'working'. Not surprising that those interested in titles want the quick method to get there. They are also the ones that complain about the stock instead of expecting their dog and themselves to rise to the occasion. It is very mechanical type training which is becoming more common. All herding dogs are supposed to be like --- they are to be a certain distance from stock, move a certain way, stand at a pen while the person puts the sheep in... When you have a good instincts in a dog you begin to see they all can work differently to get the job done. They come pre-programmed to do things a certain way. Some have wider outruns, some closer, some more style than others and more eye, some stand /like to be on their feet, some like to lie - regardless if we allow them to work using instincts and help them in areas where they are not as natural we will far ahead of those who train mechanically. If we work giving the dog freedom to think and move the sheep the way they see fit, helping and correcting when wrong we will be amazed at just how good they are. Unfortunately since herding has become a dog sport and more about peoples egos rather than good dogs working sheep well some will not allow dogs the freedom to do what they are capable of. If wins and titles did not translate to money and ego I wonder where the sport would be? I bet the dogs would be better.

I have had a dog react somewhat similar to that. What worked for her was me tieing her in the room where she could not get away so she had to figure out for herself that things were not as scary in reality as she thought. tie her where she could not get under furniture or hide and we went about 'living' normally. She was corrected for unwanted behavior and occasionally spoken to, slight pet on on the way past. Didn't take her long to come around. I think the more they feel they have chased the scary people away or gotten away they reinforce that in their minds. Without allowing that option it makes them think about things differently. "Hiding" in a crate I do not think helps even if the crate is in a busy part of the house. The more dogs I am around the more convinced I am that it is just part of their personality and not lack of socialization ect. You can do all you can to expose her and help her but she has to make some of those changes and come to understand everything is not scary. I have learned to correct behavior even if comes from fear - you can be concerned but barking and chasing people is not acceptable. It is a bit of fine line.

It sounds like she is working thoughtfully, if that is the case I would let her work. I do have a few things just to pay attention to and be cautious about - I know of some folks that kept their BC in the back of sheep so they could only drive/push sheep and would correct or not allow them to go to head and gather. Those dogs get confused and begin to question themselves and their instincts. I would make a point each time you are out together to do some of both - allow her to gather and drive so she knows she is capable of both. The other thing to watch is some dogs when out working with other dogs are concerned by any correction given to one dog. So you could be correcting one and a different one thinks it is meant for them even if it is not and they are doing well. Then they too begin to hesitate and question what is right. To work well together they almost have to have similar personalities and same level of correction not one need a harsher voice ect. IF I have a chore my older dog does well and needs no help from me working without any commands I find I can take a pup to tagg along"help" since I can concentrate on them. As long as she has a good recall and is working thoughtfully I dont care about age, she is saying she is ready just take it slow and help her when she needs it, dont get her in over her head and in everything build confidence.

I think resource guarding is very normal. Watch how puppies interact, the bigger most confident aggressive ect get the most space at the food bowl at 5 weeks old. Normal yes - acceptable NO! I teach my pups What Mine is Mine and What is Yours is MINE. I teach them that whatever I want I can take, whatever I want or need to do to you - you will just have to take it even if you dont like it. The people that can not brush their dogs or clean ears or trim nail is incredible. They say 'he doesn't like it" My reply is " That is too bad, but he doesn't get a vote" Avoiding the issue by separating or crating will not Fix it. Each dog is different as to what gets the point across that growling or biting is unacceptable, but needs to understand it is. Some just need a correction and voice reprimand some need more but do not ignore it because odds are it will grow. I had a great Pyrenees pup 6 to 8 mo old grow Once while he was eating and I scolded him walked toward him backing him up about 25 feet. That was first and last time he ever growled. I tell you this because guarding/ growling can lead to other issues and the correction needs to be enough so he thinks long and hard about his transgression and never repeats it. Is he neutered? I would start by having him understand every good thing he has to ask you for. He asks to go out, does not charge out doors, he has to sit and wait for his food and to to be given the ok to eat, He asks for time with you or to sit close or to be petted ect. Make him work for things. Some dogs get the idea we are they for their pleasure instead of the other way around.

I have never assumed 'working Bred' and 'working lines' means the parents actually do some sort of stock work. Heck it could be a great great great_ somewhere in the pedigree that worked and you could not say the statement was not the truth. Those of us that have stock dogs know of a cross of 2 actually nice working dogs that has produced pups that do not work well. Since that is the case I would expect it more so from parents who do not work stock. When ads are placed anywhere I think it is the buyer who needs to inquire as to what the words mean that are written about the dog/pup. Working to some I would say would not qualify as working to me. For example a dog that follows behind stock - is that working if that is all he does? There are no concrete definitions and lots of opinions and grey areas. Tons of different dogs and different people so what suits one would not necessarily suit another, which I think can be a good thing. I tell everyone looking for a stock dog to watch both parents work and make sure you like what you see. If there is a previous litter bred the same watch those pups, that is as good of a predictor of what the pups will be that we get

I occasionally will stop at the butcher and ask for beef leg bones 6 to 8 inches long. Never have had a dog bite off chunks of real bone. Do not use any of the other products. I would not be comfortable if she were mine giving her anything unsupervised. Did have an aggressive chewer break a 4th upper PM on a real bone once. A 400 dollar vet bill that was her last bone / hard thing EVER

Having the annual spring Jack Jack clinic April 15, 16, 17 here in southeastern Indiana. I am 2 hours from Indy and Lexington, 1 outside Cincinnati. Usual clinic format - working teams work twice a day Will have round pen, small pastures and larger rolling hill pasture. My clinics are traditionally smaller, simply due to the location, so plenty time in the 3 days for discussions and practicing new skills. 3 days is 400/ 2 days is 375 discount for second working spot lunch included Nice RV park by Ohio River within 30 min of farm Questions email me denice.r@lycos.com

Lawgirl Good for you for not pushing your agenda on your dogs and expecting them to on board. Trying things you might enjoy together, discovering new things together and beginning that journey - whatever it may be- will be enjoyable for you and them.

I believe in the UK / ISDS registry limits how many litters a bitch can have that are registered. If I remember correctly it was 5 in her lifetime. The feeling was it would allow that bitch to grow up and be proven. Have not spoken to anyone from the UK in several years so it have changed.

I have been reading this thread and thinking quite a bit about where I started and the 16 years since my first dog. I had sheep first and bought my first pup having never seen a dog "work" but having lots of dog experience and raised sheep for 5/6 years. The pup was bought off a local dairy farm and was to help with my sheep. He did help but it was nothing like my dogs now. I am sure partly because my dogs now are good working stock from good working stock but also because I knew Nothing about how to help the pup figure things out. I get calls monthly from Livestock producers interested in herding dogs. Some come watch my dogs work, some I help with their dog or point them in a good direction, some we talk about things on the phone, some I never hear from again. I do wonder if we had a conversation about how to best educate the public and more importantly the livestock producers in this country about working border collies if that would be a more productive avenue. It is up to those of us who depend daily on the work and instinct of these amazing dogs to educate people and preserve the ability of the dogs. I think trying to dictate to others what they should do with their dogs is not very productive, educating them how quickly working bred border collies can lose those instincts when they are not selected for would seem the way to go. If indeed people who do not use border collies for herding but want them for other things knew how quickly those special qualities that make them unique can be lost they could easily be spokespeople for us and the working border collie. Preserving the working tradition is going to take a lot more than a registry and a small group of people, especially as our country gets further away from the farm and ranches.

I know there are some countries that require the dog to pass a working test before being registered. It would be interesting to see what countries require a test and what is required, the criteria and how it is done. I would say it would difficult to do something like here not only because the vastness of the country but also because Americans are so in favor of personal freedoms and most regulation is not look on as favorable. Short of testing on stock before registration I am not sure how to keep actual working dogs "pure."

I also would say crate train her. I think all dogs should be ok with a crate because you never know when you /she will need one. At some point in her life I imagine at the least she will spend a night at the vets, might as well teach her crates are no big deal now. Shy, timid dogs I feel need you to go a bit slower with, be patient but not baby her. Some end up emphasizing fears and drawing attention to them by what they feel is reassurance. I think it is better to be matter of fact. EX - today we are sweeping the floor, no big deal, she can go in her crate and watch, later play the radio, take her for a walk around the yard then down the block ect. Take it slow dont draw attention to her reaction to much - a little come on its ok, touch her, one pet and move on. Also most border collies I know would rather be told they are great or petted than treats. First thing for me is a recall, start on leash and long line, make it good to be with you - what she thinks is good may not always be what you think is good. Try to keep her attention for 2/3 seconds then move to something else. Everything is new, once she gets more relaxed she will stay focused longer I imagine

A vet friend told me once "Treat the Dog not the Disease". Good advise and that is pretty much what I do. If the dog is not hindered, in pain ect then I would tend to let it go. If she was limping more than she was not or if she does not use that leg or does not want to jump on the couch ect then I would go to the next step. Many small dogs do just fine, they even stretch their leg out and 'fix' the knee themselves. larger/heavier dogs have more of a problem usually. Might see if there is anything specific exercises you can do to strengthen that area.

I find Border Collies very Focused and it can take some practice to figure out the best way to break that focus so they can 1. hear you, and 2 so you ask for another behavior. Some dogs do well if you use a particular word, others a sound like a hand clap, AH, but most will do better is you interrupt the Thought before it becomes an Action. YOU anticipate him nipping and correct the thought rather than after the fact. The door thing is a common problem. In an excited situation many dogs get into spats, that can be the owner pulling into the drive, in a dog kennel boarding situation, greeting people, playing with toys... I would address the situation individually - work on one dog with the other dog in another room, in a crate ect. Teach each one the way you want them to react to someone coming, get that really good with each one before trying together. Set them up with friends coming ect, keep them on a leash so they can be successful. Be matter of fact and calm will go a long way to helping them remain calm.

I have never noticed as association with 'looks' and temperament/personality. If I was not able to meet the parents I would much more concerned with how the pup related to litter mates and people than its coat color. Other than the known problems with health I am not aware of others that are suggested but unproven.

I think people limit themselves by wanting to find someone close by. What is a couple days of travel when you will have the dogs for up to 16 years? Seems to me it is the last on the list of requirements instead of the first.

Here are a couple ideas. I do not walk backward, I turn and walk and watch the dog over my shoulder if I need to check on things. The sheep will let you know if the dog is pushing to hard. By watching them and walking backward you are placing pressure on them, some dogs push back and just turning around will fix it, they relax. Different dogs can be different distances and the sheep will react to each dog differently. If the sheep are not worried about the dog being close then he is not IMO. I think continuing to push the sheep past you is different than working close. Pushing past you indicates there is not the right feel to me. Are either of the dogs slicing flanks or disturbing sheep on their flanks? Are they to close other places? When you make your correction do they take the correction and the next time trying to adjust and figure out what they were doing wrong or do they just do it the same way again? How old are they? Do you know how the parents work? Are they thinking and feeling the sheep? I find some dogs are very good at correcting themselves with patience if you give them time. If they are young and trying to figure it out I try to wait on them a bit if it is nothing harmful. You have to balance that with things possibly becoming a bad habit. I tend not to use a down for correction I use an AH or HEY or Get OUT, What are doing?. If they stop when asked but keep pushing to hard then I would say you have not corrected them with a stop. I believe dogs need a correction to be acknowledged by them so you see a reaction that tells you message received. Again it is individual - some dogs will lower a head, some dogs look away, some tuck a tail... Some of the more stubborn strong pushy dogs I dont feel they have acknowledged me till they turn heads off sheep and give ground, those dogs I walk through the bunch and continue correcting until they acknowledge me. Some people stop the correction when the action stops mistaking thinking that the dog got it when in fact he did not register that as a correction. Softer more sensitive dogs do not need that type of correction but I always look for a 'I understand, you don't like that' from the dog. Work on pace a bit on your fetches. Again with an ah or time or steady get them thinking while bringing sheep. If your sheep are on the tame side and not reacting to the dogs if they are close by or tight then the dogs are learning the wrong thing from the sheep. I try to allow the sheep teach the dog using very little commands on young dogs. Listening to me and doing what I say is lots different than the dog using instinct and learning about sheep. I think if sheep are knee knockers or tame and just go with you then the dogs learn they can be close and push and it is all good, sometimes they have to close to get a reaction from the sheep. Fresher sheep may teach them they have to stay farther off, the sheep will FEEL the dogs more so the dog learns to Feel the sheep. Just some thoughts so you can look at things differently. It helps me to set up a video so I can go back and watch it, you see different things that make a world of difference. Better yet is having an experienced person come and watch your dog on your sheep but that is not possible all the time so the video is next best choice.