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denice

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Everything posted by denice

  1. "When I have a pup chasing after me as I go, nipping at my heels, I ignore it completely. If it gets intense, I'll give a firm 'NO!' and stop moving completely until he stops. Then I'll carry on to my destination. " was what you said. this leads me to believe the pup is only corrected when the chasing and biting gets "intense" not right away. This sends mixed messages. I didn't say you only trained with positive methods. I said some do. Different breeds do tend to have different tendencies. hounds follow their nose, herding breeds get excited by movement ect. The correction I believe needs to happen regardless. I would not allow a herding breed pup chase, bite stock any more than than i would allow it to chase, bite me. rude is rude, disrespectful is disrespectful. working only happens after respect for us and our stock. chasing is not working. Of course this may not be needed if you have chosen to seek other advice.
  2. You need to work on the recall off sheep. get it down there then go to a round pen with sheep. You can put the sheep in the pen stay outside of it with your dog work on the recall there. Walk to sheep call off, walk around the pasture, walk to sheep back up and call....small steps. I do not take pups out to a pasture w/o a recall. three times of not coming when asked you have allowed a very bad habit. Use a long line if you must. Not calling off sheep to me is disrespectful. WE are working sheep together, the sheep are MINE not the dogs. If he goes into the pasture thinking what he wants to do with the sheep you have already lost. He needs to go into the pasture looking to you and asking what do you want me to do with the sheep. All boils down to your relationship with the dog. Once you see the difference it is obvious. he shouldn't be pulling you to sheep. If he is work on that first. You need to be able to walk with him off line in the pasture with sheep grazing. Once you can do that things will begin to fall into place Also start in the round pen working on calling off sheep once he is ready for that. Have him balance bringing sheep to you, back up to a fence Lie him down. Step in front of the sheep, walk toward his shoulder pat your leg call him asking him to turn away from sheep as both you and he walk away. This is how all my pups begin to learn recalls on sheep. Can't do it if the sheep run, need to be in a small area where things are more controlled to start.
  3. There are some people who can very effectively train with positive reinforcement, no or very liitle correction. It takes a ton of diligence. For me I have no problem with an appropriate correction, no matter the age or the behavior. I see mis behavior as an opportunity presented to me to teach/raise the pup so we can have a great 16 years together. I see correction as giving the pup very vital information. Why would you allow SOME nipping, chasing, biting only correcting when it was really bad? What signal does that send? You can bite me but not hard? That's silly. Crates are great but they do not teach dogs HOW TO ACT appropriately, we do. The cats have figured it out it seems. I would say they were very clear on what is acceptable puppy behavior and what is not. I am fine with redirecting - don't play with that here play with this but some pups are very focused. Redirecting only goes so far with some. I would say he needs clearly defined rules. What is and is not acceptable followed by all humans in contact with him. Ex if he is not to jump on you then he cant be putting his feet on you when you are sitting down, If he is not allowed to chase then no running and chasing games with the kids. Most pups simply need an AH then they look up at you saying "What do you want" then show him what he is to be doing. I think make it more complicated than it needs to be.
  4. I think I know the place you are training. Nova?? The problem with sheep that are used by lots of different dogs is they learn staying next to people is safe. They don't act like real sheep much of the time. I am an hour outside cincy in Indiana. I think I saw you mention Derek, have you attended a clinic of his? He came to WI years ago. He does not put so much pressure on the dog rather he puts pressure on the ground. He has great success with that concept. I have used it with some dogs. Mostly I would rather teach the dog to give when I ask/ correct them for being to tight rather than using pressure to try to keep the dog correct. If the dog has the responsibility to do things correctly then he learns to think and use his instincts. If you train mechanically and want to tell him every step then you have to know when and where the dog should be. You have to read sheep better than the dog. Not many people can do that. You can check out my web site www.clearfieldstockdogs.com
  5. Shaun Training a young dog is tough if you are trying to do it alone. There can be lots of reasons the dog is splitting the sheep - concern, not knowing what he should do, no confidence in himself or you, excitement, you are in the wrong place, asking for to much to soon... I would start with you and him in a round pen or horse stall type area with sheep who are calm and move nicely away from him. Where are you? Might be able to point you to someone who can help
  6. If you watch your first video listed...when you put pressure on the dog - step toward him, bend toward him, wave the stick.. to attempt to get him further off sheep the dog pushed back. every time. pressure causes this - you push he pushes. if you watch while you are walking opening up the area giving the dog room, taking pressure off his outruns are better. No tail flipping, more relaxed. The sheep need to react and teach him when he is wrong, not simply stand by you. There is no reason for him to do a wide outrun because of the sheep you are using and the fact that no matter where he is the sheep will be the same. Might be fine sheep for a lesson or two but not what he needs now. The distance from the sheep are due only to how the sheep and dog interact. It is not a set distance. Where are you in Ohio? Be happy to help you. Have clinics twice a year with Jack Knox coming to my place.
  7. I would try to pay close attention to the folks behavior she is upset about. Watch if they are making eye contact, they way they walk up and approach you or her. There might be something she is reacting to. I would try to notice anything similar about them. Also try to figure out the difference if she is fine one minute with them but not the next. Are they leaning over her as opposed to kneeling down... It maybe also a scent. I would not allow her to stay in one place and fixate on anything. Get her up, walk around, ask for behaviors...
  8. Send her to me ... I will fix all that but you might not get her back....Yikes she is a cutie. I have a DEEP soft spot for tris. Seriously if you have a friend with sheep who will allow you to get up and personal with them I bet that will fix it. I put quiet dog broke sheep in a small pen, 1/2 the size of a horse stall, walk her around them on a leash. let her figure out what they are and get comfortable.
  9. Many of the tri colored dogs I have had are really brown haired with balk on the tips so they appear black.
  10. I am redoing the web site but you should be able to find it and way to many photos at clearfieldstockdogs.com when it is up, hopefully next week. Until then I have blog if you search clearfieldstockdogs you should run across it if you need a bc fix
  11. If he is going in the same area you also need to clean that with an enzyme cleaner to break down the chemicals in the urine/poop he can still smell. Even IF he is house broke he may still still mark since he smells it there. Crates are great not only help to predict when he will go and where but keep him safe and secure while you are sleeping
  12. I understand that deep sense of emptiness that surrounds you when a treasured friend is no longer beside you. When The look they give you, tail wags, and quiet companionship is gone there is a hole. I sit inside typing 8 Border Collies surrounding me all snoozing. Simply their presence is reassuring. Even with a group such as mine I miss every one that is no longer here. Some move to new homes to become great partners with others, I miss them but get to hear of their adventures which makes me smile. Some pass on due to age. It is tough to watch them slow down and slip away a bit every day but we try to prepare ourselves for what we know will come. Some pass suddenly, the hole seems to last a bit longer. Can't let that stop you from enjoying today , for today is all we know we have. Don't let your sorrow keep you from sharing your days with another great dog. They can heal tons of pain and loss.
  13. I am a not a perfectionist. I think that only sets up for failure. We need to pleased with our dogs and Ourselves with small steps forward. I have worked with dogs all my adult life as a vet tech, dog owner, bc owner and partner for the livestock operation. What I do find is that many other breeds are simply easier going, laid back and enable you to be a 'slower' learner. If you let a lab or golden repeat a behavior 5 times, not so big of a deal if you want to change that behavior. Bcs have it down pat in three. If they enjoy that behavior and you have allowed it then you are going to have to step up if you want it changed. Most dogs, pets, learn what gets them the results they want. They have their people wrapped around their paw, even when they do admit it or realize it. Bcs just take it up a few notches. You have to take that huge engine and genius brain putting them to good use, not so critical with most other breeds. IN todays world people fail to realize that those things that make bcs great partners on livestock farms are the same things that make them difficult in a life they were not designed to live. It is that simple really. It is like tying a 7 yr old boy to a chair expecting him to be happy, not going to happen. I think the secret to getting any breed of dog and being overjoyed with that dog is doing your research to make sure that breed Fits into your LIFE, not just get a cute pup or have some great idea that you will begin running or hunting or whatever for your dog. That is the simple reason so many dogs end up in shelters. BorderCollies simply make it obvious people need to step up or they will drive you crazy. Most dogs if you have clear consistent expectations they will meet those, bcs exceed those. If you are not the kind of person to be very sure of what you want and need from the dog then folks have trouble with the really active smart ones.
  14. I believe the best thing is go to where BC are - herding events, agility ect and meet several and their people. Narrow down those traits that you are attracted to - outgoing, more reserved, quiet, not so quiet... I find there can be difference in temperament of dogs working in different venues. The next step is to start talking to folks that have bcs and may breed or know of litter. Find someone more investing in placing their dog/pup in the right situation than simply selling the dog. The other great option is the many bc rescue groups that have dogs in foster homes that are older. You can see more of what a older dog is like. Many to choose from looking for good homes and the foster family has a good idea of the dogs personality, strengths and challenges.
  15. I have found lights on in the house help especially for lightening and thunder, tv or radio on, air conditioner so windows are closed all help. Thundershirts also help. Some dogs I crate in the same room with me, some just hunker down somewhere. I do not let them out in the fenced yard near dark around the 4th without me also. if really scared I would also leash them but we just have dinner and go out earlier while it is daylight
  16. I would have a trusted vet take a look who will do a good physical. Specifically i would take note of urine and stool - regular schedule, not asking to go out more, look normal ect. Then check anal glands. After that I would ask vet to feel liver, kidneys, spleen...watch the way she walks, runs, sits... When she shakes does she do it from head all the way to tip of tail? Sometimes if they pull a muscle or have a problem they will not shake all the way through, where they stop is usually the area that is bothering them. Yes might be nothing but if mine I would want a set of experienced hands and eyes on her just for my own peace of mind.
  17. The best thing is to brush comb and get the dead undercoat out. The feathering and butt fluff can sure be trimmed without a problem. You can use a thinning shear or if you have clippers take a 5 blade or something longer and just lightly go across the top of the butt fluff. A great undercoat rake is Jeffers magic spring comb rake - the double row of teeth version. Think it like 5 dollars in the jeffers pet on line catalog.
  18. While I have read very little of John Katz's writing and do not believe he knows near what he believes he does about border collies and working stock my own experiences have led me to believe animals understand and feel more than most people attribute to them. Is it human 'emotion'? Maybe not, maybe it is dog emotion but we can only know what we as individuals think and feel. Heck it is hard enough to figure out others of our own species much less different species. I have heard we use 1/3 of our brain. What would we be capable of if we used it all? Is telepathy in the realm of possibly?? How do you account for 'gut feeling'? Knowing something is wrong or feeling something- before you actually KNOW it. What about the well document connection between twins and triplets - feeling the others pain. Does that make logical sense? What about near death experiences, what do you attribute the similarities to if it is not true? There is much in this world we can not prove, can't touch and see. Why is it outside the realm of possibility that animals feel, hope, make choices... Again I am not saying it is 'human logic' but if you have ever worked with a border collie herding stock where they had to make choices for themselves how to accomplish a task there is some kind of understanding, forethought, planning happening. How do you account for a dog stepping between his person and pissed off cow saving their life if there is not an emotionally attachment there? Why would a dog place themselves in harms way. It isn't because they are stupid and don't know any better. They are fully aware a 1200 lb cow could harm them. How is it that dogs will alert other humans of a problem - be that fire, sickness, illness, seizures...even without any training? Why? If they do not think and do not care they have no reason to. Yes indeed my dogs communicate with me. They have let me know a lamb is stuck in the fence when I have sent them to gather the pasture. He could have simply ignored the lamb, brought the rest I would not have known. Yet he stopped his work and came to the top of a hill where we could see other. He looked at me, looked back, looked at me, moved back...It was as clear to me as if he could have called my name. He needed me to come down there. He led me to the lamb, I got him out the fence he continued his gather and brought everyone to the barn. That is not the only incident, or only dog that I have had who has done something mind blowing. yes animals communicate we are simply not very good listeners
  19. Yep What Ellen said. it works on every dog I have ever tried it on. Fixed long time leash pullers for folks in 5 min of all breeds Make the dog Responsible for keeping an eye on you and attentive to where You are going and What it is YOU want.
  20. There are medications that can help. I looked into it a couple years ago for one of my guys. Don't remember names but was told it can take 3 weeks to begin working so I didn't pursue it. Also some RX dog foods that have been shown to help. Talk to your vet
  21. I am not fond of generalizations but this is from my experiences with multiple bc, quite a few aussies and a couple shelties. Most bc have eye working sheep to some degree with the classic stare bcs are known for. They eye I believe gives them incredible balance knowing where to be to effect the flock or herd. In general the working border collies I have encountered in my 18 yrs of stock dogs have instinct, natural talent, nice wider outrun built in, and stock sense which all is passed down through generations of working dogs. Strong to the head of stock or front of the group. Some are natural driving dogs with good pace others not so much. They simply understand how stock move from a very young age without being taught. A few bcs I have worked with of unknown parentage are also quite good at working stock. Once you selectively breed for other things or not selectively breed FOR work there is a huge drop in instinct and natural ability. Most aussies I see work or that I have helped over the years lack the drive, intensity, knowledge that comes with working bcs. Many are interested so long as things go their way but do not take corrections well. They simply do not live to work so any correction while working tends to discourage them. They do not have the natural ability to work away from the handler nor do they have the gathering outrun of a bc. They bounce and bark while working and work close to stock. They can shoulder into stock to get them moving in the desired direction. Many head and heel. They seem to learn slower than most bcs I believe because they are not selectively bred to work as much. I have not run across any you can send to do a job and come back to have the job completed.The couple of exceptional aussies I have worked with can do very well in a small pasture / corral setting when working along side handler. Those that have eye work more similar to bcs but still prefer to work closer to stock and handler needing more instruction. There is discussion if they are heading or heeling dogs. I feel they are a heeling dog, more comfortable and natural pushing. Shelties are sweet little joyful dogs that seem to me to not change those habits on stock. The mild temperment comes through to me as a suggestion for stock to move in a direct. Everything is on a smaller, sweeter scale. Some are bouncy and barky while working showing excitement rather than a bc like intensity. Just my experiences in my small corner of the world
  22. I find it very interesting working with different breeds of herding dogs. It really opens your mind causing you to think about how to get the instincts the dogs have brought out. Working through their instincts to allow them to understand how stock move, how they effect that movement and then what is we are asking of them brings out the best in every dog. Some have a preconceived notion of how dogs 'Should' work. Every dog is different even among border collies there are big differences. Some have lots of eye, some are more upright, some can work right up close to the sheep making the sheep calm, some have to be 10 feet back. The problem I have in watching video is you can't 'Feel' what is going on. IS the handler of the Belgium placing in during the drive? Could the dog do it without instruction? Possibly if she was trained to work that way. Do the sheep and the dog know where they are headed which makes a huge difference. Is she working? yes What i would like to see more - across breeds - is more natural work without all the instruction like dogs are on a trial course. Surely dogs can /should be able to/ gather or drive a flock of sheep with a simple go to sheep command and a stop when they are done. Why people think they need lots of commands for that it is concerning to me. Aren't we breeding intelligent dogs with sheep sense and instinct? Dont they have 100's of years of working dogs behind them? I don't begin to believe i know more about sheep than my dogs do. If I do that dog does not stay as a working dog. If I am moving my 100 ewes be that a gather or drive I dont have to say much. Some dogs require a slow down. At times I cant even see the last of the sheep and the dog so I couldn't give the correct instruction if I wanted to. Training so we can trust them to work well out of sight should be the goal not try to train for obedience. But all that is a different subject I suppose.
  23. if you look from above them while they are standing - looking down as they are beside or in front of you - you should see a waist line. An hour glass figure - thicker shoulder and hips, smaller waist.
  24. There is a basic misunderstanding among 'ranchers', livestock producers with cattle, that Border Collies are not 'strong' enough to work cattle. These folks often believe that a Cattle dog- ie heeler, or Aussie is more suited to cattle. It comes down to simply being uneducated about working dogs and how they work. Most folks do not look deeper than outward exhibited behavior to see what is really happening. They assume because a dog is biting it is 'tough'. Most dogs bite from fear, concern, uncertainty... It is the get them before they get me uncertainty that is also exhibited when dogs are leashed and lunge at other dogs or people. Real confidence is not aggression, it is a quiet steady come forward or it is a wait to prove you can not be intimidated giving livestock time to think and choice another option. Folks wrongly assume cattle need to be pushed/driven rather than gathered and fetched. They do not understand the differences in breeds, what they were intended to do, how they work or 'feel' livestock. It does not help when 9 out of 10 web sites show dogs biting cattle further supporting this misinformation. Don't get me wrong, not at all against a dog gripping when appropriate, I need that myself with NCC ewes on occasion. Bite needs to done only when necessary. There is a huge difference in a dog that bites from strength and confidence and one that bites from fear. It is up to us to educate them, show them the differences in breeds then allow them to make an educated choice.
  25. I do believe a pup comes with many unknows. They grow they change, their personalities change and change again. Therefor a crap shoot. If looking for a working dog - to do actual work - you have a better chance of success IF the parents work, if you like the way they work, if they have been health tested and passed, if they have produced other litters that are healthy and working. You never quite know how first time breeding may go. I have bred dogs I work daily on stock, both are very useful dogs. The pups from that cross were all over the board. Health was not an issue but some work wonderfully, some not suited for work. A started dog gives you the benefit of seeing some of the strengths and challenges in that dog. People often dont look to themselves when dogs do not exhibit quality they want. They blame the dog. No dog is perfect but many things influence what it exhibits - both personality and behavior and work. You can change what that dog exhibits by changing Yourself - how it lives, how it is handled, training method... There are those who simply want what they want without the work. An older dog where you can see what they are is ideal for those folks be it a working or pet dog. I have had working dogs for 19 years. I have seen enough folks work a dog to know not every dog will work for every handler. What one person enjoys another doesn't. What an experienced trainer/handler can do with a dog in a couple minutes is amazing but most folks who watch and try can not repeat that. It takes YEARS of work and really seeing the dog and understanding it to know how to bring the best out of it and how to help it. Dogs respond to the ability, consistency, confidence of handlers I see it in livestock work, grooming, vet clinics, dog parks... A HUGE part of breeding I believe is matching the pup with the people, home, situation. Not simply selling a pup to anyone with money. In the working community I believe it goes beyond that. We need to let others know if we find problems, we need to neuter and spay before rehome/selling dogs, we need to be in contact with the breeder and make ourselves available to those we sell pups to. The other side of that is we need to listen to the breeder when we are told about the individual characteristics of the parents and sibling. Example - some dogs when working tend to always want to come forward, or stand at a stop rather than lie, or strong to the head always wanting to gather rather than lining out for a drive...simple tendencies of the dog I believe. Rather than thinking you can fix it in a pup you ought be thinking about if you can live with that particular trait if it shows up. The goal needs to be making the best partnership ( if working or not) not having the top placing dog or dog you can show off. Half the work or more is OURS. Owners tend to be more of a crap shoot than dog imo.
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