countryboy

Glad to hear that. I hope you had never posted in any of my threads because you were the one who swayed this internet community against me in the first place by insulting me in my very first post on this forum. Nice way to welcome a newcomer, Juliepouidrier! Did my first post about Mormons in Utah offend you Julie? Well, know that it is not easy being a Jewish person in Utah and the Mormons never left me alone and told me I was going to hell all the time. Anyway, I hope the forum readers realize that you Juliepouidrier are a "fake internet expert" because merely logging several posts, owning dogs and becoming a member of a border collie club does not make you an expert. It does look like I am not welcome here, so I don't think I will be posting on this forum again.

Alright, fair enough, but I am afraid some of you won't like the purpose I had in mind. And the end of it all, I will be lucky if I get a straight answer to my question. (On the other hand if no one ever gives straight responses to my questions, I think I will stop posting on this forum altogether). My objective in asking that question was to filter out the "noise" from the real information. Anyone can be an expert on an internet forum. A visiting Yale professor at BYU who competed in Schutzhund in Belgium had told us how a certain Schutzhund forum owner from Wisconsin had developed a near cult reputation through his forum and was influencing breeding practices even though all he knew was how to shoot videos. By asking the question I asked, I wanted to know who were the real people who competed in trials and had formed lasting friendships with one another and who were the fake experts who had formed "internet" reputations. This way I could ignore the ones who had formed mere internet reputations via this forum and focus only on posts by the real experts - those who were competing in trials, those who owned flock, etc.

Another insult. If you cannot give a straight answer, kindly refrain from posting. I did not ask that question lightly but had a definite purpose in mind.

You misquoted me. I think I have asked legitimate questions, so I resent being called a troll. My fundamental objective in asking that question was to consider the source of my BC. In other words I am struggling with whether I should get my BC from this country or acquire one from Scotland. I have noted that those on this forum who acquired their dog from overseas (e.g. Fly by Dr Melanie Chang) have been generally happy with their dog.

A few things first. 1) Bill Fosher had written in another thread "CHD so widely diagnosed and treated in Border collies in the US, while it is virtually unheard of in the same dogs in the UK." What is the consensus on this issue? Is it because not many people test for CHD in the UK? Is it because they have better dogs down there? Is it because vets here are out to make a quick buck? What is the general consensus on the topic? 2) PrarieFire had asked "Do you really maintain that 12.5% and 15% are statistically significant? And that you can predict the offsprings hip scores?" My statistics professor would say the answer to the first one would depend on the sample size. But I would like to know more about the answer to the second question. I know researchers at the University of Pennsylvania have come up with a way of predicting offspring hip scores. Does anyone know more about this? Maybe Dr Chang could help since she is a Penn PhD? 3) Who are the other members of the ABCA Health & Genetics Committee?

Who are the posters who have formed lasting friendships with other posters in person because they frequently meet each other at trails? Justin

Another sad thing is the decline in farmers using Great Pyrennees dogs for livestock protection. The preferred method here in Utah is using "aphese" which shoots a cynide bullet into the mouth of the coyote (also a disincentive against using herding dogs because dogs could sniff at the bait and get similarly killed). Everyone is encouraged to kill coyotes. So hunters kill them out. Sometimes the BLM (actually it is some other department like BLM) uses aircraft to take them out. Then there is the practice of "denning" where cubs are killed. There is snaring and trapping of coyotes - also a danger to herding/LGD dogs. Then there is the M-44, which is a mechanical device that shoots sodium cyanide powder into the mouth of a predator. The M-44 top is baited with a scent attractive to predators and when the bait is bitten and pulled upward by the animal, the device ejects sodium cyanide powder into the animal's mouth, killing it in less than 90 seconds. You also have the LPC's - livestock protection collar or "toxic collar" or "1080 collar" which is attached with straps to the throat of vulnerable livestock. Predators kill by attacking at the throat, and in doing so usually puncture one or both of the collar pouches, thus receiving a lethal dose of the toxicant. Because of these methods, lifestock guardian dogs are also unfortunately not used. I am not an expert in this but hope this answers your question.

Not to mention the fact that dogs don't have the height and cannot locate sheep in thick brush (the major kind of vegetation here in the mountains). A man on a horse can see the sheep and herd it, so that is one more reason why farmers use horses here. Some Mexicans don't even charge to do the work as long as they get food and a shelter somewhere on the farm. But even with horses, sometimes sheep are left behind in the brush. Out in the plains (desert really), an ATV does the job in minutes because the entire flock seems really afraid of the ATV and hurries away as quickly as they can. With a dog, I suppose only sheep closest to the dog would feel pressured to move somewhat slowly - but I don't know much about herding with dogs myself. What really hurts is when farmers see herding events once every two years at the local rodeo or some other livestock event. Very few farmers show up for these events, which usually feature a Blue Heeler or a Border Collie. Even those that do attend spend most of the time at the hot dog stand while the herding event is in progress. The dog herds just 3-5 sheep and this is what really hurts herding with dogs! Because farmers who do attend tell everyone else that dogs are no good at herding because they can only manage about 3 sheep. Then most farmers say to themselves that since they have 800 - 5,000+ sheep, dogs are not for them since dogs can herd only 3-5 sheep. Which I know is not true because I have seen Briards herd several hundred sheep in Europe with no involvement from the shepherds.

Jack writes {{What are this person's SAR credentials? Has he successfully led or participated in a SAR group? In his "Infrequently asked questions about german shepherds" he mentions that he is an economist. I have a feeling that it will take more than hauling some puppies to Las Vegas and playing hide-and-seek with the firemen to create a SAR unit that will actually prove useful.}} Jack, you will have to ask him that. He seemed a little cold towards me yesterday after I told him I had posted about the S&R operation on this forum because he likes to do his work quietly and privately. Julie asks {{Are you saying that your parents/family are also interested in using broder collies to work the sheep or just that they might use the dog if you get into vet school and have to leave it behind? I'm curious about what led you/your family to start working your livestock with ATVs in the first place. Have you just always done it that way? No animosity intended in these questions--I've just always wondered how farmers/ranchers choose, say, ATVs over working dogs and was wondering if they just figured that an ATV would be easier. Can you shed some light on that thought process?}} Julie, I recently met a really hot chick here, so I am hoping I won't have to leave this area and anyway I don't think I will be accepted into a vet school given my grades. But you never know. About ATV's, almost all of us herd using ATV's or horses here in rural Utah. We all have dogs on farms but most of us don't know how to train dogs for herding. Once every two years, they have a demonstration at a livestock show or rodeo with dogs trying to herd 3-5 sheep, which I enjoy because I love dogs. But most farmers scoff and say to themselves "Heck I have 800+ sheep and it is better to hire a Mexican or two with horses for a day instead of this heeler that can herd only five sheep at most." A family friend has 3,000 sheep. This time of the year he trucks the sheep from Nevada where he spends the winters to Utah and drops them in an area where he has a permit. Then two Mexicans on horses will herd them over a cattle trail for 15 miles into the mountains where he has a ranch with 3 Great Pyranees dogs for protection. The BLM has lined the border of his ranch with "aphese" so that coyotes won't get to the sheep, so even the 3 Pyranees dogs are not really needed and he wants to get rid of them this year. It takes him 2 days to get there from down where we are at to his ranch in the mountains. All he has to pay is the two Mexicans for 2 days and they work for pennies. No need to bother with herding dogs. That is the reality for us here. But not all of us are like that. I am trying to persuade my family to get Border Collies to herd out livestock.

I am not a very smart person. But if I get into vet school - and that is a big IF - I suppose I will have to drop out of both SAR and herding myself since who knows which school I end up joining and in which state. The BC I acquire will be used by my parents and siblings to herd sheep. We presently herd using ATV's.

Thanks Mark for the link. - Who are the other members of the ABCA Health & Genetics Committee? - Does your Pipedream Farm have a website?

Juliepuodrier, I read your responses to me in not only this thread but other threads too. I am disappointed that you continue to insult me in every one of your responses and you put words into my mouth. The end result is that many others attribute your comments to me. I never said I don't care about SAR. I am pretty passionate about SAR. I just said I don't care about the motivations of the person who started the SAR group in Parowan. He is just a Native American who likes to be left alone and I guess most Native Americans are that way, especially educated ones. But I never said I don't care about SAR because I am passionate about search and rescue work. And may I remind you that I am passionate about herding too. We herd with ATV's now and I would like to try herding with dogs. I saw Briards herding in Europe and they do a much better job that we do with our ATV's. The Briards herded over 500 sheep along busy highways and the shepherds were busy smoking or doing their own thing, scarcely paying attention to the dogs. Since I have never seen a Briard outside of Europe, I would like to try herding with Border Collies. And I love Border Collies. Justin

I am just curious about how protective your border collies would be. By protective I mean, protective of you and not of your home, car, etc. Suppose you are walking on a lonely street at night and a bad guy jumps at you and starts attacking you, how do you think your BC would react? This has never happened to me but my guess is my Golden Retriever will think the bad guy is playing a fun game and will probably join in, happily barking and running circles around the bad guy, jumping up and licking him. My ex-girlfriend's JRT will surely growl, bite the bad guy's ankles once, run away and keep barking from a distance. Has something like this happened to any of you and if not what's your best guess about your BC's reaction?

Not enough discussion/debate on this topic: Hip dysplasia - the topic only my professors seem to discuss in class. And when I bring up the topic of HD in dogs, they scowl and say all of us dog people are idiots. (Yeah, I am a pre-vet student, i.e. hoping to get into vet school one day). But today I read this article: http://www.stilhope.com/hipartical.htm Clearly more debate and discussion is needed on hip dysplasia. But the topic is largely ignored, especially by breeders.

I don't care about who is starting this S&R unit, why he is starting it or stuff like that. All I want to know is how can I ensure I find a breeder who 1) breeds dogs that are good at herding 2) are paranoid about health of the dog. #1 shouldn't be too hard but what about #2? How can I find breeders paranoid about breeding for good health?