gvmama

Amanda, I have a just two year old pup that is still having difficulty with his driving. It's probably a combination of me and him :0) He is fairly confident on his cross drive, but lacks confidence on his drive away. If he has a good pace going, he slides to the right every chance he gets. If he is unsure he will look back or if he is stopped, he may need encouragement to get his walk back on. I will continue to work shorter drive distances in hopes of giving him more confidence. But, what can I do to stop his sliding on the drive to the right? Thanks, Suzanne

Hi Bob. Me again. I have been having great success hauling my 8 sheep to the desert to work on my days off. I have been driving both the pup and the open dog for miles and have stretched my open dog's outrun up to 700 yds. I have been working on blind outruns and gaining the trust of my dogs to flank them and go for sheep even though they can't see them. The majority of my points are lost on the drive. So, I'm making this my priority. I even bought a couple of panels to take to the desert with me (as soon as my hubby finds a way to weld them on to the stock trailer). Both my girls (nursery and open) slice 90 degree turns. It doesn't look very good going around the panels or going around the post. I have been driving in a huge square out in the desert (like 1/8 X 1/8 mile X1/8 mile X1/8 mile.) At each turn I need a 90 degree flank. The flanks start out right and then they tend to slice it coming in to close to their sheep. If the younster does this she will "bite" strange sheep. Niether like to "give up" their sheep when driving. The pup is better than her mother. I think I know a bit more now in the training department. Sometimes my open dog (who is very tense) will rush in around the post with tail in air. I need to make them understand that they need to be further off their stock on thess turns. Help? Suzanne

I'll keep this short. How do you go about getting distance at the top without the dog getting too wide? Thanks. Suzanne

LOL...You guys are very funny. You use operant conditioning in training your stockdogs all of the time. Many of you just don't know it. I am a clicker trainer. My dogs will do a 600 yd. outrun and then go get me a cold Beer out of the ice chest. :0) Suzanne

Sorry Bob, it's me again :0) Great seeing you at the finals. I have a new development here with my youngster, Yoko (20 mos). I took her to a new ranch today to work sheep. Surprise. She is developing eye. This in turn is helping her with her driving. She is really liking to drive now. But, what is new to me, is her stickiness on her stock. She had this attitude of "I've got them and I can't let them go." She has a nice pace, but she was difficult to flank on the fetch and sometimes on the drive won't flank. I know, I know...here I was complaining about her not driving. Now she's driving and I'm complaining about her not readily releasing the pressure. At her usual ranch where I work her, she is easier to flank. Maybe it was the new sheep? Thankfully, I will be getting 8 sheep this week and now that it is fall I can trailer out to the desert. Her stickiness was more so in the arena than in the field today. I think it had something to do with the pressures of the exhaust, etc. I really like this little dog and will make a commitment to get her out as much as possible to other ranches/sheep this fall/winter. Exercises/comments for dogs that lock on and don't want to flank? Suzanne

I'm always trying to dream up new training exercises for my dogs. When I work on flanking sometimes I do some short drills with a group of sheep on some hay. Pretty simplistic. I ask the dogs to flank in a circle around the sheep; a few flanks to the right and a few to the left. I make sure the dog is square off his stock. If not, I step into him or give a low growl to turn him out. I'd like them to turn away from the stock or at least not come in on the circle. When my females stop they have a tendancy take a few steps in on the stop before downing. This gives me the opportunity to put pressure on them as soon as they begin their stop, so they don't take steps into the circle (toward the sheep). Another exercise I have been doing of late is working two sheep sorted away from the flock. Of course, the sheep are wondering why they have been isolated and very much want back with the group. This puts a lot of pressure on the dog. But, it most certainly keeps the dogs on their toes. Note: One sheep is pretty berserk by itself. Two is better. It makes for a great drivng exercise. Plus, the dog can't be asleep at the wheel. They have to be on top of their game. This is a great exercise for my one dog who has little toleration for pressure and will try to grip. They have also learned if the lose one sheep or both sheep running back to the flock that they need to flank wide in order to catch the eye of the lead sheep to be able to turn them back. I'm just starting some "mind-set" for my youngster to think about shedding. I like to have two large groups of stock in a field (arena works too, but you probably will need hay to put both groups on). I ask her to work just the one group with other group about 100 ft away or more. She would like to put both groups together, but we work one group or the other for awhile before I let her combine the two groups. I like to make a huge hole...at least 100 ft or more to start calling the dog in and driving one group away from the other. This is great for the start of your look-back, too. I'm pretty novice, but I have made it to the open division (and placed..whoo hoo). I do almost all of my own training at closeby ranhes. I'm just sharing a few exercises I work on from time to time. If you have some you'd like to share, I'd like to hear them. :0) I'm always looking for new things to do with my dogs to change stuff up and possibly learn from. Suzanne

Adequan...IM injections KV Vet Supply (good distributer) Google it. You will need a prescription from your Vet. The Vets normally ask about double what you can get it from a distributer for. Most start with 3 injections the first week and monthly thereafter. Usually comes in a 5 ml bottle if I remember correctly and is given per weight. Normal dosage about 0.8 -1 ml for the average sized BC. Suzane

Thankfully, I have had only one BC that I have had to hold heads and teach a grip to and yes, I still have some scars. The mother/daughter that I own have learned on their own when they need to bite. Daughter Yoko is still in learning mode. They need a grip to get goats off of flatbeds with bales of hay, pack sheep into pens, and on occasion take on a confronting sheep or goat. Kilt has an eye that can tell a line-up of billy goats not to even mess with her. The pup has learned to nip them off the hay, but still will take a cheap shot if she feels pressured. She doesn't grab a side, she dives in to heel them. I think I am too harsh on her and I try to see when she is going to fly in before she does it. I'm better at it, but she still flies in on occasion. Obviously, I don't have her correctly positioned back off her sheep as Bob mentioned. Thanks for the input. A work in progress. Suzanne

Hi Bob, Reporting back on Yoko who is 20 mos. now. I found an interesting driving exercise just by changing up and thinking of new things for the dogs to do on the ranch where I work them. I have been sorting two sheep out of the arena and letting my dogs individually work the two around the field away from the flock. Of course, the two don't know why they have been singled out and they are eager to find a way to return to the group. This has really "keened" up Yoko's drive. The lightbulb went on! The pressure of the two sheep wanting to get back together with their group put pressure on Yoko. I'm not real savvy when it comes to telling you about pressures and a dog's eye, but I can tell you that she understood she was pushing them away and she was ready to catch a sheep that wanted to split back. She had no inclination to head them. Gosh, it was a good feeling to watch her. One finally got away from her and was at least an acre or two away and I let the pup go on her own. She has learned to flank wide when it is needed with the two sheep exercise, also. She knows now that you can't run behind or off to the side a bit to catch an eye when they are running back to a pen. She now flanks way out in order to turn them. Sure enough, here she comes working this "one" ewe around flatbed trucks with hay, RV's in mid pasture, etc. What a sight to see and all on her own. :0) I can't wait for Oct. when I get my sheep back to start trailering them out to the desert and really do some driving. Your input has been very helpful. Thank-you. Suzanne

I like to run my dog in the first 5 runs of the morning. :0) Just seems to work out better for me. I have one hyperactive bitch. She needs to jog a few miles before even getting out on the field. I surely don't let her sit and watch. I am busy walking her and getting her used to everyone and everything. She is kind of a nosey bitch with a ton of stamina. I think you need to know your dog and carry on accordingly. They are all so individualistic. I guess that's what makes it so much fun! Suzanne

How do "you" go about teaching a dog when a grip is permissable? Do you let the situation arise on it's own (sooner or later) or do you find time (an exercise) to work with the dog teaching him to grip when asked? Do you allow them to take some cheap shots at a younger age and then start to get on their case as they mature? Or do you discourage cheap shots right from the get-go and only let them heel in the chutes or nose grip when confronted? I work my dogs on goats and sheep. And, especially with the goats, grips are needed. Suzanne

[quote name=stockdogranch' Yay! for Celt! Great post, Sue. One thing I have learned over the years is that once the dog understands *what* the job is, it's often best to let the dog figure out *how* to accomplish that job, A "Shut up and let the dog work" Great advice. HARD TO DO. I think the toughest lesson is knowing when to let go of the control! The best work I have seen from my dogs is ranch work. Usually I am too busy to watch them and they are handling everything on their own. I think they develop a real "feel" for their stock when we are able to step out of the picture. :0) Suzanne http://walkupbcs.blogspot.com/

I know some people that call themselves clinic whores. Not me, though I don't mind auditing. I have worked 2 dogs in 2 clinics in 7 years. Both times I was disappointed and both clinics were with very well respected handlers. First clinic the handler wanted to take my soft dog out behind the shed and beat him. Honest, that is what he said. He took a lunge whip to my dog and my dog grabbed the end of the whip. This is my now 9 yr. old open dog who would stand on his head for me if I asked. He was 2 yrs. old at the time. Second clinic, the clinician thought he knew my dog in a few seconds. Now mind you he was a big hat, but how do you know a dog in a matter of a few seconds. Plus, this clinician kicked some of the novice dogs in the side that didn't respond to him. It sickened me. Possibly just bad experiences, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I spend a lot of hours working my dogs and trying to team up with them. I certainly don't want it "undone" because some clinician is having a bad day or whatever the excuse may be. Just food for thought. If you have a soft dog, I'd be leary of rushing to make a clinic deadline until you get some experience under your belt. Go ahead and audit the clinic. You will probably learn more that way. I think some people go to work in clinics to hear how nice there dog is or to show the dog off. I personally think clinics are good for handlers who have a problem that they can't solve on their own. But, I believe the dog should have some form of a stop and be able to work with another person in the picture. Sorry if that sounded like sour grapes, but I think my dogs set their own timelines. Each one works differently and learns in a different timeframe than the other one. Enjoy the journey. Go audit the clinic instead of trying to rush to be ready...ready for what? Without a dog in the picture you can really concentrate. :0) P.S. I'm going to my 3rd clinic this fall. I took a working spot, but not with my novice ranch dog. I don't want to pressure her. I am working in the clinic with my upcoming open dog. I know exactly what I'd like to work on. Suzanne

One more question...... My bitch is flanking nicely at the pen now, but she is still a ticking time bomb. What I mean by that is that she explodes when she feels a certain amount of pressure. She hates 'stalled" sheep and at the pen lots of time we have to wait a bit for heads to turn, etc. This bitch will feel the pressure and start to slither on on her tummy with tension. She is like a rubber band pulled all the way back ready to fire. Just as I think the sheep are about to go into the pen, BAM...she flies in for a bite. Exercises, suggestions?

I was thinking the above as I drove home from a local ranch with my 3 BC's. Also, I was dreaming that I had a home with enough land to work sheep. (Sigh) Diana Gautier says "Get a hold of a dog's mind, and the body will follow." There's some truth in that statement! Suzanne

Hey, I'm taking FULL advantage of you being here. Thanks. I remember first meeting you in Klamath at the finals (of course, I was spectating) and you kindly taught me about air density and whistles! Okay, I have 3 nice dogs...Eryri 9 yr. old, Keen-Eye 4 yr. old and an 18 mo. old pup of theirs. Obviously, the 9 yr. old was my first dog. Most people say they screw up their first dog. I can't say that. I don't think I could have. I guess that says alot about his work ethics. Anyway, he is a shedding fool. The one problem he has is that he sometimes turns on the wrong sheep (in competition). I think I need someone to film me and I will see that it is MY problem. Anyway, he turns in front of me on his sheep and is very keen about holding his sheep. He's been like that from the get-go. I took a private from Alasdair when he was 2 yrs. old and he had nothing but nice things to say about him. Next dog...the Keen-Eye bitch. "I" taught her to come in behind me on the shed. I swear I saw that on an Alasdair shedding video, but maybe I was dreaming. She was a bit hesitant in teaching to come in on my "here," but she loved coming in behind me. But, she stalls behind me and has been difficult to get to walk up. (And, just to note...she loves a challenge, but it must have something to do with the pressure or why else is she stalling?) As soon as I call her in (behind me) I have been walking with her or initially ran to the head of the sheep she shed and let her fetch them to me. She still is a bit stalled...maybe just more time shedding with encouragement? Pup, 18 mos. old...comes in painfully slow. Has a "here" off sheep that would knock you over. I don't want her coming in behind me like her dam. What are your thoughts about coming in on the shed "in front of you" or "behind you"...that is the question?????

[quote name='RMSBORDERCOLLIES' Working on the fence gives you and she the opportunity to only have to cover one side and what you need to do is encourage her to get going a little faster. I find a little "sshhh" gets them going quite well and lots of praise when they do start to push a bit. If she starts to slide and go towards the heads of the sheep just call her name and drop back from her side so she will stop going to the front of the sheep. Don't woprry about lines right now or corrections at all." I'm going to pick your brain on several things here (probably most will evolve with more work and maturity). I always try to break up my dog's sessions with a little of this and a little of that. I don't like to be drilled and neither do they. Yoko is driving her sheep around the arena on the fence (both directions) with me in the middle or thereabouts. She has a nice way of dropping her head when she starts driving. She just remains "unsure' of what is being asked of her. She is 18 mos. now....works 3 times a week. If she slides off the fence I don't say anything, because most of the time she is correct because the sheep are starting to drift off the fence. If she gets a bit ahead, I flank her. This is where I probably should be calling her name as you have suggested. Because if I flank her she jumps in the middle of them. I can't shhuss her, because she will jump in and mix things up. If the sheep slow, she slows, and if I'm observant I will see her body tense up and with that stillness she is telling the sheep and me that she is going to bust in. Even though she has this slow relaxed pace, she is faster than I can think when she feels the sheep aren't moving at a pace she would like. I always over react when she jumps into the middle of them. I'm trying to read her signs before she does this. I think I get a bit stressed because I don't want her to get hurt or to hurt the people's sheep I am working. At the same time, I don't want her to lose the desire to do what she thinks she has to do to MOVE her sheep. I guess I could use some lighter sheep. But, mostly I get "dogged' sheep to work. I think I am answering my own questions while writing this, but feel free to suggest! Anyway, that's my update. This winter we will be able to go to the desert and she will have wide open spaces to drive for miles. :0) Suzanne

"Okay why do think that the "drivers" are tougher as opposed to the "gathers". Can't a "gatherer" be tough?" I'll throw in my two cents. I'm not sure they are 'tougher,' but they have more presence....those that are eager to drive. My driver from the get-go (6 mos) would gather, but it was missing the finesse of my other natural fetchers. But, put her behind sheep and her head and tail would drop, and off she would go. She is a no-nonsence type of dog. I watched her the other morning doing ranch work. A suffolk turned on her and she backed him about 5 steps and then taught him a lesson. "No more backing, Mr. Big Guy...NIP...turn around and move." My fetchers with oodles of stock sense are both softer in nature. The puppy remains to be seen...next chapter. But as Bob said...gotta love this, "Sheep got to MOVE."

Wow....a little of everything in this thread. I really don't know "eye." What I think is strong, others think of loose, etc. I think I can say I have "medium" eye dogs. The two that are natural gatherers have been and are difficult for me to have the patience to teach them to drive. My female that wanted to drive from the get-go, I've had to teach to gather (correctly). But, oh give me a dog that wants to drive ANY DAY. A dog that wants to drive them into the next county is a dog I'm in love with........My natural fetchers are softer dogs than the one with the presence to drive all day. Even though she is harder for me to handle, I like that sort of dog.

Hi Bob, We met on Whidbey island. I had the Keen-Eye dog that I ran in open as non-comp and you asked, "Why aren't you running her in open competitively?" I took that as a compliment. I'm what I still consider a novice handler even though I finally got to some open trials with my almost 9 yr. old BC. I only get to work my dogs 2-3 times a week at neighboring ranches. Slowly but surely. :0) It's a great hobby and I enjoy it immensely. I have a 17 mo. old pup that I trialed in Ranch in the Pacific Northwest while on vacation. She has a nice outrun on her and the speed to cover just about any type of sheep. She is a bit loose eyed, very biddable, and has a quiet presence on her stock. I know this topic question is asked over and over, so forgive me. But, I'd really like your input. She is lacking "push" while driving. She wants to slide to one side or the other. She doesn't wear while driving...justs slips to the side. Plus, her pace is slower than I would like. As soon as I give her an "ah-ah" when she starts sliding to the side, I get even a slower pace. Once fall comes, I will be able to trailer sheep to the desert (wide open spaces) to give her more experience. During the summer months I just have arenas and a couple of small fields to work her in. Suggestions? Thank-you, Suzanne http://walkupbcs.blogspot.com/

(posted twice for input...experts and training discussion) I have a 4 yr. old bitch that will go to head (nose bite), but won't bite a heel (I have never put her on cattle) If I move her quickly on sheep or need to push sheep quickly, she will zip into the lead sheep for a nip on the nose which sends everyone in opposite directions. She will nip a sheep on the nose that is staring her off...no problem. The sire has a ton of sheep sense, but lacks power. He will turn his head if confronted. He will grip if necessary if I am close by, but if in a field, it's RT time if he is confronted. He is my first dog and from lovely lines. Now I have a daughter of theirs that is 15 mos. She will bite a heel (in a heatbeat), but not a nose. LOL This pup will not turn her head if confronted (Yea), but will stop dead in her tracks. I have been very careful to try not to over power her on the different ranch sheep I put her on. This pup gives 100% and tries so hard to please. She doesn't have a lot of push, but is eager to do everything correctly. If a sheep breaks she will go to the head. She is praised for that. Today, when she stopped when confronted by some yearling lambs, I just kept walking with her until they turned. I prasied her for walking on. Occasionally when a group of goats and sheep are in a pen together I encourage her to nip through the fence at a nose or two. She will growl and carry on jumping in and out. I praise her for that, too. She will walk up to a ewe with a lamb (outside of the fence)....and do a little jump at the fence. Exercises? Just keep on doing what I am doing while waiting and watching her grow up? Thanks. Suzanne

I have a 4 yr. old bitch that will go to head (nose bite), but won't bite a heel (I have never put her on cattle) If I move her quickly on sheep or need to push sheep quickly, she will zip into the lead sheep for a nip on the nose which sends everyone in opposite directions. She will nip a sheep on the nose that is staring her off...no problem. The sire has a ton of sheep sense, but lacks power. He will turn his head if confronted. He will grip if necessary if I am close by, but if in a field, it's RT time if he is confronted. He is my first dog and from lovely lines. Now I have a daughter of theirs that is 15 mos. She will bite a heel (in a heatbeat), but not a nose. LOL This pup will not turn her head if confronted (Yea), but will stop dead in her tracks. I have been very careful to try not to over power her on the different ranch sheep I put her on. This pup gives 100% and tries so hard to please. She doesn't have a lot of push, but is eager to do everything correctly. If a sheep breaks she will go to the head. She is praised for that. Today, when she stopped when confronted by some yearling lambs, I just kept walking with her until they turned. I prasied her for walking on. Occasionally when a group of goats and sheep are in a pen together I encourage her to nip through the fence at a nose or two. She will growl and carry on jumping in and out. I praise her for that, too. She will walk up to a ewe with a lamb (outside of the fence)....and do a little jump at the fence. Exercises? Just keep on doing what I am doing while waiting and watching her grow up? Thanks. Suzanne

We live on a mountain....WALK-UP Border Collies http://walkupbcs.blogspot.com/