Denise Wall

Here's the thing, I want to see some of these people who "get" this method of thinking it's not important for dogs to develop their gathering instinct to the fullest because it's assumed to hardwired anyway, walk the walk. I mean the real walk. Although trials are not the be all end all of a border collie's work, let me pose this scenario. The greatest trial IMO that I've ever run in was Leo and Joanne Woodbury's in WY. The outrun was about 900 yards with five fresh range sheep (each run) that had never seen a dog. The fetch had a 200 yard blind gully and the wind was usually blowing so hard the dogs could not hear any commends on the entire outrun, lift or fetch. It was essentially a 900 yard silent gather. To see a dog run out well, bring those tough, tough sheep straight down that fetch and come up from that blind gully dead on straight to the handler, well, that's it for me. That is instinct and talent allowed to develop to its full potential. When it gets as hard as it gets, you *show* me it doesn't matter.

Done.

I don't have any problem with these recommendations except the part I've quoted above. I realize these are general recommendations and she has a disclaimer but many of us on this list have dogs at risk for contracting Lepto because of what our dogs do (i.e., working stock) and also the area you live in is very important regarding the risk. I hate to keep beating a dead horse but when my dog got Lepto three years ago, my own vet had seen four cases within a few weeks including his, and he was the only one of those four that lived. Also two other *vets* in the area had gotten it from treating lepto dogs. Here's a good link for relatively updated info on Lepto and the adverse reactions and coverage in the newer formulations of vaccines: lepto link Skip to last part for vaccine info.

I keep not understanding what people are talking about with the "picture" until I realize it's my avatar. I never used one here and most places before. Maybe it's because I don't look as mean as people expected I sent you a long email as to the cause of my rant. Pull up a chair and get a snack before you start to read it.

I'm kind of on a mission (or you might call it a rampage ) over this right now. I would love nothing more than if this could be made a sticky here since so many of the questions asked about raw in this section are addressed: Rawfeeding myths link Denise (raw feeder for seven + years)

That's right Julie. I've had some pretty hard to handle dogs, especially when I first started running Open, and they would run all over me on the fetch not taking a "lie down" very well I finally decided I needed a new word. I chose "stop" for the reasons Julie stated above - phonetically it was more conducive to making a dog stop and it was shorter to get out thus decreasing the reaction time. I remember the first time I used it at Edgeworth years ago, which has a long fetch (~600 yards), part of it blind. I could hear handlers in the background saying, "What did she just say?!" My system now is to start them with a "lie down," expecting their instincts may overwhelm them sometimes and they won't always take it like I'd like. As they become ready to run Open, I change it to a "stop" and expect them to stop every time, no cheating. After they stop, I allow them to use their own discretion about getting up and reacting to the sheep without me telling them unless I say "stay still." When I say "stay still," they at least know when I want them to override their instincts to react to the sheep. This system is especially useful at the shed for me. Sometimes, like at the pen, when the sheep are hard for me to read and I feel like the dog will read where exactly to stop or slow down better than me, I use "lie down" again which from their beginning training means to them they're allowed to use more of their own discretion on where exactly to stop or if they should. I can't say they do it perfectly each and every time, but it's a consistent communication system I use from the beginning and they know what my intention is. I'm not that great of a handler. I need to tap into their natural instinct as much as possible. As long as they have a good work attitude this system works well for me. As an aside, I don't care whether they stop on their feet or hit their bellies. Some dogs naturally stop better than others. My young dog May made the transition from using "lie down" to "stop" (and it was a dead stop) in two times of me using it. I think she was responding to the natural phonetics of the word "stop."

Thank you for the nice comments on my video tribute to Holly. She was a special, once in a lifetime dog for David. You can also see it in HD if you wish on the Fieldstone YouTube site: Just click the HD icon on the bottom right of the video.

Mick was bitten by a Black Widow Spider ten years ago when he was 1.5 years old. BWS bites are not like brown recluse spider bites in their presentation and course of disease. Here's a good quick review of both types: spider bites Excerpt for BWS bites: "Black widow spider: Signs of the black widow spider bite include regional tenderness and numbness followed by hyperesthesia. Muscle pain (severe) and cramping of the muscles of the chest, abdomen, back, and other large muscles occur. Abdominal rigidity without tenderness is a classic sign of envenomation by the black widow spider. Seizures are possible. Respiration may be compromised because of the abdominal cramping. Muscle rigidity decreases with time followed by muscle paralysis. Increased blood pressure and heart rate may be seen. Death is caused by respiratory or cardiovascular collapse. Extremely sensitive to black widow spider bites, cats show signs of severe pain, drooling, restlessness, and early paralysis. Death is common in cats." Mick's main symptoms were convulsions (seizures) involving only the muscles along the right side of his body where the bite occurred, extreme rigidity, especially a classic "praying"pose where he was sitting very stiffly with his head bent down as if in prayer, slobbering, and yelping in pain when he tried to move or was moved. He was found at the vet's to have two small swellings on the right side of his muzzle consistent with a BWS bite. There is not much skin involvement unlike brown recluse spider bites. The neuromuscular complications of BWS bites however are very, very painful. It took about two weeks for him to recover. When physically stressed to the limit, he will still sometimes tick to the right in the head and neck area from the permanent damage to the nerves and muscles.

FWIW I googled it and one person who I found no credentials for said they're trained to start out on their right (outside lead), change to the left (correct inside lead) for the turns, and switch back the the right for the straightaways. This sounds right to me (I used to own an ex-racehorse). I don't think they could make the turns on the wrong lead. They probably switch to the outside on the straightways to reduce fatigue on inside legs.

I think they switch to the outside lead only on the straightaway.

Nancy, as an old horse person, I watch sidedness and leads pretty consistently. I notice they will normally prefer one lead over the other and use one as much as 2/3 versus 1/3 of the time even when going each way equally. IOW, they will run on the wrong (preferred) lead some of the time because it's their strongest side. This will also depend on how tight the circle is, how unbalanced it is to run on the wrong lead, and how long they've been running on the same lead. The lack of balance may outweigh the lead preference. One question I have is is he "cross cantering" i.e., running on the correct lead in front and the wrong lead in back, wrong in front correct in back, or is he just running on the wrong lead back and front? RoseAmy's question is a good one too. It sounds like a developmental balance thing to me. I would see how he does over a bit more time.

Yes, that would probably have to be it. And yes, how embarrassing that I didn't remember who did it. In my defense, I probably copied this entire dissertation from a book at the vet school research library at NC state many years ago. She was not well known back then so the name didn't stick with me. I'll see if I can track it down again. But for those thinking it's a short paper, dissertations are long.

Thanks, guys. If people are interested I'll see if I can track this paper down again. I've tried before unsuccessfully, but only half heartedly. Anna, I too feel I can be faster, more emotive and communicative many times with whistles. Often, I'll be working a trained dog with verbal commands and switch to whistles because it gives me more flexibility to express what I want at that moment. It's as if the verbal commands are hindering me. On the other hand, I'll drop the whistle and use verbal commands, corrections or a dog's name in a heartbeat if that's what feels right to do at the time. I'm not sure if it IS right, it just feels right. When I did the "Gaining the Winning Edge with Whistles" CD with Kent Kuykendall years ago, with all the time I spent editing, I heard it over and over so many times that each word and whistle is burned into my memory even now. It all made so much sense how to express ones self to the dog with whistles. I can't say I always manage it all that well in practice, but the overall concept is very clear in my mind of how I need it to sound for each dog and action in a certain situation.

This is not all that unusual. Someone once did a PhD dissertation on the natural response by animals to certain sounds. Part of the research was on sheepdog whistles, including a natural response by many dogs to the normal down whistle. It was an eye opening piece for me to read. Yet, it all made so much sense when I read it. I've somehow lost the paper over the years but it was really good and intuitive. It led me among other things to start using the word "stop" as a verbal command instead of "lie down" once my dogs where running Open because "STOP" phonetically, is much more naturally conducive to, well, a stop than a women with a southern accent saying "lie down"

Not being one of the OP's chosen ones, I debated over coming back to this thread. However, I'd just like to tell everyone how much I appreciated reading all of their posts. All the different viewpoints were interesting, with many coming to the same conclusion - leave your dog alone to work naturally as much as possible and help when you need to, and expect your dog to be willing to comply when you ask. It's hard to leave your dog alone at trials, admittedly. It's in practical work and training where you mostly figure this balance out. And it's a fine line to maintain over a dog's life and as your own skills develop. We've all been novices and heard the things we needed to do that we couldn't do yet. We did the best we could with what we had at the time. But I think it's important to remember these things people say that we can't do yet and keep striving toward these goals. Perhaps it's an endless journey that none of us quite reach. I know I'm no where close. However, in the end, it needs to be second nature as much as possible to really dance the dance. There's no time to think, just feel and react in the moment. I've seen people get into the technical/mechanical stuff pretty exclusively and make it work well for them with certain dogs. Some of them do well initially but get stuck at a certain level and never advance because of it. Some of them have the feel and knowledge of livestock to make it work at high levels because they're putting the dog in the right place and not conflicting with what the dog wants/needs to do anyway as much. IMO, it's a higher form of skill to assess if the dog is doing or going to do it right first and then step in if needed than to just take over and run the whole show yourself. In my experience watching people both in three day eventing with horses and with working border collies on stock, once you get yourself into that 100% (or close) control, it's hard to go back wards and give any control back to the animal. Becca is right. Mick and I understand and trust each other. I know his character well. He's the most sound minded dog on stock I've ever had.

Hi Wendy, I suspect many dogs able to run 400 yards at 14 months are susceptible to becoming too wide. I tend to break *non too tight* outruns down into three categories. Depending on the dog, you will likely see one tendency more than another: 1) Dogs that run the field (may be what your dogs does). They tend to run or try to run the outer boundaries of whatever area they're in, cuing mainly on space and terrain not stock. Dogs that do this may just run wide naturally. IMO, this can be taught to a fault by pushing a dog out too far or to run the fence no matter what. Or by asking a dog to gather stock spread out to all perimeters of a field too much. 2) Dogs that run to the stock they think they're being sent after. They focus on running out specifically and with feel (as in adjusting as needed to the stock as they go out) to the stock they can see or see (or feel??) on the way out in the direction they're sent. 3) Dogs that run to the stock they're sent after but are still on the lookout for other stock they might see on the way on a reasonable outrun to the group they think they're going for. I think of developing scope on outruns as finding a balance in the flexibility of a dog to run out at with at least some proficiency in each of the ways above depending on how I cue them from the start or on the way. This is what I try to communicate consistently with them from the start of training. So the answer to your question is I try to start developing cues for scope right off, even if it's not very far at first. I indicate the direction I want them to run to stock by the way I'm facing. I make sure they look straight at that direction by telling them "look," "no" when they're looking the wrong way, "look" again and "good" when they finally look straight at my intended target. I set them up at certain angles to indicate the width and length of the outrun either before or after I do the "look" thing. But if I do the "look" thing first and then set the angle up, I normally do the "look" thing again to make sure we're still squared away on that. Ideally, I like to see them throw down when they understand the target. I have to watch closer on some dogs because they'll more subtly or quickly indicate they understand where the sheep are supposed to be and then start looking at the angle of their path to get there, which is not all bad because I can sort of tell their width from the start and correct the angle if need be. Then I work on cues during the outrun for redirects (in or out). This may be the most important part of development, especially for a wide or natural (highly focused/opinionated outrunner). The cues vary depending on the dog. (Some of my dogs will fight you on a harsh correction to make them run wider and just run faster and tighter.) I could go on and on but for the dog you describe, I would say his name (or "here" or something he responds to) however you need to to pull him in a little as he starts out if it's a short outrun and you know he's going to go too wide. This is just the start of building your communication though. I would try to build in all the flexibility you can for how you want him to run out. I tried so hard to keep to the two inch limit. Hope you're still reading

Deb, I'm a scientist, a biochemist to be exact. I'm perfectly capable of being too technical and over thinking things. To a fault. I understand what you're saying and appreciate the effort you make. What I'm saying is all that mental energy you're spending on the technical approach takes away from the mental energy you need to teach and allow yourself to feel and be flexible to each situation in the moment. It's hard, I know. But that's my take on it.

Deb, A lot good has been going on on the boards lately in the training sections but I've been otherwise occupied so I haven't been able participate. However, I'll jump in here. In general, IMO, you take too much of a technical approach to your training and thought processes about training. There are lots of ways of course but here's my take: If you have a well bred border collie, the only thing you will actually need to *teach* the dog are inside and off balance flanks. Everything else should be in there and just needing to be developed. All of these things can be developed quite naturally using pressures from you and the stock. I realize this is a pretty sweeping statement and I've gotten a lot of flack before for making it. Regardless, I think of training as being more about feel, communication and proper attitudes from dog, handler and stock. If you concentrate more on the work or the job as a whole, the dog will learn the variations and that there are no hard and fast rules. Many dogs have an inborn understanding of the work. I'll give an example. Mick was never a dog to run through sheep, even when he first started. Going around all of them and keeping them all together was very natural for him. He was a good shedder, but knew the difference of when the sheep should stay together and when the job was to separate and hold them. He was also the most honest dog I've ever had about staying on the correct side to catch sheep no matter how hard that was. As in, he would give the extra it took to catch the sheep the right way and not cross over even if crossing was the easiest way. I say all this to set up my example. At Edgeworth at the Wilson's trial, the shedding ring is often perilously close to the exhaust gate which is often open. If the shed is before the pen, you really have to watch that the sheep your dog is not holding don't leave the course. Mick, not being a very mild dog, can cause the unheld sheep to spurt off on occasion as he comes in on the shed. This happened at Edgeworth one year and the unheld sheep took off for the exhaust gate. It was clear there was no way for Mick to catch them before they ran through the gate if he flanked around either direction. So he ran *straight through* the middle of them and stopped them before they got through the exhaust gate, put them back together, and brought them back for the pen. An example of feel and communication is my old Zeke dog. If I was sorting sheep at a gate, I only had to indicate very subtly which sheep I was trying hold back and which sheep I was trying to let go and he would start helping me with those specific sheep. When I say very subtly I mean I would look at that sheep and he could tell what I wanted. He just picked up on it. No commands or me even thinking about him or where he was. There is so much natural in these dogs. It just delights me to no end to see it come out depending on the situation without needing to be "trained" specifically. Again, just my humble opinion. Denise

This may be a huge mistake on my part but here goes. I have had plenty of dogs that move into pressure, especially starting out. The thing is, they tend move into pressure from both me AND the stock. I used to fight with them but I don't anymore. I normally find that instead of *forcing* these dogs to move off of me, I look for the amount of pressure or a way (such as dangerous ground) where I can get some response and build on that to get the dog in the right place to feel the proper effect on the sheep. In other words I don't try to overdo it, run the dog off too far and then let the dog come back in close enough. I try as hard as I can to not turn it into a battle between me and the dog but instead one where my presence is sufficient to get the dog where they need to be *while still thinking about and feeling the stock.* IOW, not turn it into a battle between me and the dog having nothing to do with the stock. I think this "you and me battle" is pretty common, ending up where the person feels they have to "break" the dog to make them listen. I can't imagine forcing a dog off me with no stock there at all as Deb describes. I especially don't want "you and me" battles that don't even include the stock in what I want to be a three way relationship between me, the dog and the stock. The thing is, I suspect many of these dogs that move into handler pressure, especially when too much pressure is put on the dog, are also dogs that naturally do this on stock. I don't want to take too much of this wanting to pressure stock when stock is pressuring them out of the dog. I just want them to learn to read how to react appropriately to pressure from me and stock. If the stock puts too much pressure on them, I WANT them to pressure the stock back, not give to the stock. I expect this last statement will be met with "they know the difference," "need to learn to respect the trainer," etc. Maybe that's true. However, the pressure of training a dog to the highest levels takes a lot out of a dog. I don't think a lot of people realize how much it takes out of a dog. Training should be as efficient as possible. Even if I start with a lot of dog, I still try to keep as much dog there as I can all the way to the end. JMHO. A big hat once described a technique for widening an outrun that I have never forgotten. It really requires nothing but a lie down, patience and commitment. Perfect timing is not needed. The sheep need to be held somehow though. Send the dog, and as soon as you notice the dog coming in too tight, lie the dog down. Keep the dog lying down as you walk out there. Use as soft a voice as you can to keep the dog down until you get to the dog. Then take the dog out to where they should be on that outrun at that point. Lie them back down and keep them down. Walk back to where you started from. Send the dog again from that correct point. If the dog starts to come in tight, repeat the process. What you're doing is putting the dog at the proper distance while leaving it calm and in a frame of mind to feel where it should be in relation to the sheep. The dog needs to have the inborn talent to feel the sheep for this to work. The idea is to remove the outer layer of excitement or inappropriate response to handler or sheep pressure or whatever that is getting in the way of the talent. Denise

It bothers the hell out of me and it always has. We all have our pet peeves and that's a big one of mine. It seems flippant and dismissive to me.

If you truly don't want inquiries this works for me: My dogs home page Plus I list no contact info. The only people I come in contact with to even ask is at trials.

This is something on my mind a lot since Molly is 16.5 + and I don't think she'll make it to 17. There's nothing wrong with her, she's just getting too old and weak to function. It would be a blessing if she just died in her sleep but I've never had one do that. She's a real fighter; I know I'll have to make the decision. My vets will give me a sedative for them beforehand if I need it and come out to my house. When Kelly, Molly's littermate, was put down three years ago, she didn't need a sedative. They then took her back with them to be cremated. When Rob was put down, I took him in. He loved the vets. He had "boarded" with them on occasion and spent the whole time in their lounge room on the couch. He was happy there, and went peacefully as I wished, but it took two hours before I could drive home only a few miles away. I would say with Solo, give him whatever he needs to knock him out beforehand, and try to get them to come to your house. It's easier on everybody. You're smart to plan ahead. You'll want to concentrate on your last moments with him and how you what things to be for him at the end without being distracted by technical details.

link

Since I produced and edited this CD, every word of it is pretty much etched in my mind even now years later. The two most helpful things I can share are: 1) Make sure each part (note) of each whistle is distinguishable from any part (note) of any other whistle command. In other words, if you use three notes for an all the way around or full away to me whistle, make sure each one of those three notes sounds different from any part of any of your other whistles. That way, if the dog can only hear one part of the whistle for whatever reason, it'll still know what to do. This requires practice for consistency and ability to produce subtle differences that the dog can distinguish. 2) Get a recorder of some kind and record what your whistles sound like out in the field where the dog is hearing them. I'm here to tell you it may blow your mind when you find your whistles don't sound at all like you thought they did.

He was diagnosed with a gluteal strain. I'm not sure what it really was/is but probably some sort of soft tissue injury. Those take forever to heal. He's only getting very light work right now but we're slowly getting together. I hope I can trial him by spring. It's been 15 years since I've owned a dog I didn't train myself so it's a little different for me.