Denise Wall

Denise, This is not exactly the info you're looking for but it's all I can come up with right now. I'll try to find something more specific for you. ************* Here are the compiled figures from five studies of various crosses resulting in data from 1,712 total progeny. It looks like most, if not all, of these dogs were German Shepherds, a breed with a high incidence of HD. A high carrier rate would be likely, hence the high incidence of HD even in the Normal times Normal crosses. Normal X Normal = 74.6% Normal progeny (25.4% Dysplastic) Normal X Dysplastic = 51.6% Normal progeny (48.4% Dysplastic) Dysplastic X Dysplastic = 13.2% Normal (86.8% Dysplastic) References: Snaveley, J. G. 1959. Genetic Aspects of hip dysplasia in dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 135:201-7. Bornfors, S., Palsson, K. and Skude, G. 1964. Hereditary aspects of hip dysplasia in German Shepherd Dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 145:15-20. Riser, W.H., Cohen, D., Linguist, S., Mansson, J. and Cheb, S. 1964. Influence of early rapid growth and weight gain on hip dysplasia on the German Shepherd Dog. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 145:661-8. Kaman, C. H. and Gossling, H. R. 1967. A breeding program to reduce hip dysplasia in German Shepherd Dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 151:562-71. Henricson, B., Norberg, I. and Olsson, S. E. 1966. On the aetiology and pathogenesis of hip dysplasia. J. small Anim. Pract. 7:673-88. ******** Denise

This thread has gone all over the place but there are a couple of "big picture" points I'd like to try to make before it ends: Reality number one - With dogs who work stock for those who rely on them as a means of financial support, the number ONE reason, by many hundred fold probably, that a puppy won't end up working into old age is that it lacks talent and ability on stock, not because of its poor structure. The number two reason is injury, occurring almost without exception from circumstances having nothing to do with conformation. I can't even think of one true working dog who was retired early due to breaking down from bad conformation. I've been trying and can't come up with one (although I'm sure some people here will relate dramatic examples of this). Stock work is more of a mind game. They seem to either learn to deal with their alleged structural inadequacies, or they don't actually matter, I don't know which. Reality is, in the case of my Mick, for example, his working life is much, much more likely to be cut short because of his bad right stifle, which he impaled on a stick bringing lambs out of the woods, than his crooked front feet. So for all this "what good does it do to breed them with ability if they don't have the proper structure to do the work?", well, if you truly do want ability, I'd say odds are you should be selecting for it as an extremely high priority first since it's by far the most limiting factor in whether they will be working into old age or not. And I'll say with pretty much certainty that you can't get the structure right first and then worry about the ability. That's really puts the cart before the horse. It won't happen. Reality number two - According laws of genetics, the more traits you try to select for, the less successful you will be. This is not just my opinion. This is a scientific fact (as much as anything in science can be a "fact"). If you select for health, structure and herding ability traits all at the same time, you are not as likely to be successful in any category as someone who breeds with a priority on one category of these. That's just the way it is. Although it sounds like a great idea to "have it all" and the rare animal may meet your criteria, it's not likely to happen. I know it's politically correct in many circles these days to say of course you select for health, temperament, conformation and ability, etc., all equally; if there's not a priority (and there usually is whether it's admitted or not), you won't be successful. If you think you are defying the laws of genetics, and have the best in all these categories, then you're not paying close enough attention to what you're actually producing. I'll end by saying for those who don't know me, I have for many years dedicated a large portion of my time to studing and promoting the genetic health of the working border collie. Anybody who's been on this forum for long has seen me argue, just as passionately as I have in this thread, with those I thought were minimizing known health concerns. In my mind, it's all about balance. In this thread, I thought some were going a bit overboard on the testing and health concerns and said so. It's not always good for the breed as a whole to do things a certain way just because you, personally, think it's a good idea for your dog, or because it's more publicly acceptable to your peers. The future of this working breed as a whole depends on a thoughtful, well studied, long-term approach that takes all factors into account using the best knowledge we have available. I'm not saying I have all the right answers. I just think no matter your individual situation, it's good to keep the big picture in mind when you're trying to influence others. Denise

RDM wrote: >I know this discussion crops up again and again, but why is it you can't have good working dogs who are sound in body too? We always talk about sacrificing working ability to breed for comfirmation and colour; what about the other side of that coin? What about neglecting a sound dog for working ability? Is it okay if you breed a stellar working dog who falls apart at 8 years of age and his offspring do too, as long as he brings those sheep in every day for the 8 years he's got in him? And no, I'm not making inferences about your dog, I'm just questioning.< Why is it that you think all the working people don't have sound dogs? There is a *range* of structural variance from optimal that still allows a dog to work into old age and it's not as narrow a range as a lot of people seem to think. I'm not talking about dogs with overt disease like yours. I'm talking about paying too much attention to structural things that don't matter as much as some people theorize and too little to things that matter more than those people know. Do you really believe I don't care enough about the health and welfare of the working border collie? I wouldn't breed Mick to a bitch with a front like his, but it doesn't disqualify him from being bred in my book. Good luck to those who "want it all". When the "want it all" approach is used, things always seem to tilt more to the things easily seen than those you have to look inside the dog's character for. >Why is it a crime for someone to want a dog with ability and also the physical presence to use that ability? If Northof49 wants a good sheepdog that also has a structure she thinks is good for the dog's long term interests, why is that so terrible? If she wants a dog that is everything the breed is supposed to be, and comes from someone who also tries for dogs who are well put together, isn't that her perogative?< Hell yeah, knock yourselves out. I just think we have different definitions on the right balance that makes up "everything the breed is supposed to be." They come to a working border collie forum to be judgmental and preach about what we're doing wrong with our dogs without living in the world we live in. Sorry that we don't just bow down and learn our lessons from them properly. I'd be more than happy for her and others to come back and rub my face in it after she's had success with getting our definition of good working dogs for several generations doing things the way she indicates. "Why is it all of a sudden "her community" and "your community?" I really don't understand. Talk about polarity and making sure that division stays firmly in place" One has to understand the differences in ideas to come to terms with them. If I wanted polarity and division I wouldn't try so hard to communicate with them. Denise

Northof49, et al, I've been thinking about this thread. Your accumulation of an impressive amount of technical information in what has probably been a relatively short period of time is stunning. Clearly, your intentions are good. Yet I see you on a path so many coming from your border collie community are on. We've been 'round and 'round about this on these boards so many times over the years and so few ever really get it. If a picture is worth a thousand words then maybe for a change I'll do something personal that I've never done before on a public forum. Please excuse me, I'm in an emotional mood. Below is Mick, a dog I have the greatest respect for. I bred, raised and trained him and he is now five years old. I bred, raised and trained his mother also. I owned his sire as well. (You can see them and their pedigrees at http://www.stilhope.com/stilhopemain.htm ) Mick is an Open trial dog and a good using dog. He can gather the hills, work the chutes and everything in between. He will work each day until you make him stop. Mick is keen to a fault. He has the strength and courage to successfully work breeding rams And ornery ewes. Yet the gentleness to ease a newborn along He has the agility, speed, patience and ability to control the flightiest lamb The grit and clean bite when he needs it to stop the most determined ewe. And much more that words and pictures can't convey. All this and he's OFA good and eyes clear. But oh no, check out the straight on view below. Too bad, he's got that disqualifying conformation fault you spoke of - a bad front. Narrow and crooked. This picture isn't even as bad as he really looks. He's pretty easty-westy straight on below the wrist, even though it doesn't seem to affect him. But while you're at it, scroll up a bit and take a look into the eyes of a good working border collie. Maybe this is where you should be spending more time looking rather than at x-rays and pedigrees. Denise

Northof49 wrote: >Denise, a lot of the pedigrees I have been looking at come from the working farms and trialers in the U.K., as I have been interested in possibly importing in the next 2 - 3 years, and want to make sure I have plenty of time to get to know the breeders whose dogs I am interested in. I also see alot of pedigrees of American and Canadian dogs that are linebred as well. A good example is Wiston Cap, I have yet to come across a pedigree that only has him in once (I am sure there may be some out there)< How many generations are you going back in these pedigrees? Are you calculating inbreeding coefficients? If so, what is the average IC from the pedigrees you've seen? What kind of relationships do you consider "tightly inbred", e.g., mother X son, full sib crosses...?

Northof49 wrote: "A lot of the working Borders are very tightly linebred, and I see that all the time in the pedigrees that I research for myself when looking at lines that I may possibly be interested in in the future." If you're looking at pedigrees of "Borders", I'm guessing we aren't talking about the same lines of dogs. Denise

Sorry that I only have time for a quick reply but here goes: I don't know what types of dogs you people are finding so much deafness in but I'll tell you my experience from being on the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee for the past six or seven years. I have never had a working border collie owner, handler or breeder tell me of any deaf dogs they have owned or bred. Patty Rodgers, the Secretary of ABCA, gets many contacts and complaints regarding health problems, many of which she passes on the H&G Committee. She said she only remembers one report of deafness in twenty years. I, personally, have been involved with border collies all my life (I'm 49) and have only known one deaf border collie in all that time. Now, I'm not saying I can include unilateral deafness that went unnoticed or that this rarity I report in these examples is representative of the entire breed. But since I talk to many people in the working border collie community about health issues and they seem very forthcoming to me about other health problems, I do feel that I would've heard more about deafness if it's as prevalent as people like Bonnie are making it sound. Certainly the working community is not trying to cover up or deny the obvious problem of deafness in working border collies. Perhaps it's more prevalent in lines not common in the working border collie community, just as CL is not known in true working lines. In general, there isn't as much line breeding going on or popular sire effect in the working dogs so maybe these problem genes are more dilute and there are less affecteds. We do get reports of the odd genetic problem now and then but with only one or two reports of a specific disease over twenty years or so, the incidence is too low to make testing recommendations on every one of these problems. There are lots of tests for all kinds of genetic diseases out there, more every year, and one could go broke doing them all on every litter. The line has to be drawn somewhere (at least with most people). Unless I had reason to suspect deafness in a line, I would not recommend BAER testing on all litters of working border collie puppies based on the information we have at this time. The ABCA has been planning to conduct a health survey on the web site for some time. One thing or another has gotten in the way of this but I promise it will be up soon. Deafness is one of the problems we will be asking about. My findings suggest there are differences in the incidences of certain genetic diseases in the different border collie "communities". It will be interesting and informative to collect and analyze harder data on these diseases to see what the real story is. I have to end this now. C. Denise Wall, PhD ABCA Director ABCA Health and Genetics Committee Member

I'll second that it's not a reputable place. This is pretty common knowledge. If you want to know more from me, sorry, you'll have to find out yourself. The internet is no place to discuss the specifics of such things IMHO. Denise

From the data we have, it appears the percentage of go-normals within the CEA affected percentage of 2-3% is very low. Like maybe less than 6% of the 2-3% affecteds are go normals. In other words, there are actually very few go normals. Greg Acland thinks the percentage of go normals within the affected poplation in border collies is a lot less than in regular collies. Denise

Deb, Things are going well except there's a slight discrepancy with one of the go normal test samples and the other positives. It looks like it won't be out this year but soon. Denise

Thanks Sam. I would love to come sometime and work Kate and Todd together. Umm.. maybe that wouldn't be the best idea. Maybe separately. Denise

Sam, With Todd and Kate it's probably more like one for the price of two deal Won't be at Jeff's. No more trials for me till fall. Or maybe not even then if I don't get my truck fixed...

Well, good for Todd on both accounts! I hope. Sometimes it's the best way. Maybe I should send Kate :cool: (hey, I'm getting into these gremlins now) Sorry I missed him both weekends. I love to take his picture. Denise

>Oh, Ran Toad at the nursery trial all three days, and while still a bit hectic, wasnt totally awful, though I think I broke the sound barrier...sighhhhhhhhhhhhh< Glad to hear you're running Todd again. I knew you would Denise

Terry wrote: "Final thought for my academic herding friends to debate. There is a difference between presence push and power. A dog with presence and push can have no power." First lets separate this from guts. A lot of people use the term power to describe a dog who is brave and will stand up to any challenge but who may not be able to move sheep well. In my mind, guts may be a component of power but the definition of power I use is the ability to make sheep go where they don't want to go. What's your definition? Denise

No see 'ems are bothering my sheep. Is anybody using a good insect repellent right now that they would recommend?

Try calling out his name. This will pull many dogs in at least some on a fetch flank. Denise

I thought it might be interesting to see what people are using their dogs for right now. For example, 23 of my 26 commercial whiteface wool ewes have lambed (the other three aren't bred). I have 60 or so total sheep right now and the flock is worked mostly as a whole, needing foot trimming because of the extreme wet conditions we're having this year and frequent worming because of the same and because I don't have much land. I have plenty of good grass but I'm separating some sheep out for supplemental feeding. Soon, I'll need to vaccinate the lambs and although the ewes have been sheared, I'll probably start shearing some of the lambs as needed so they'll keep putting weight on properly. Of course, mine is not a big operation but this is providing some pretty good work for the dogs. They've been used mostly in pens and chutes, for sorting, and for holding sheep off grain while I feed. Also, because the sheep are spread out in the fields and the lambs keep the ewes from quickly flocking and coming up when I gather (in fact, they're quite heavy), the dogs have been having to scope the field more, being careful to find all of the sheep and sometimes take look back commands. This has improved both their gather and their ability to take commands on the gather. In general, handling the ewes and lambs right after they're born and as they grow, has improved the dogs' balance and patience. I've really enjoyed this lambing season, the work it provides, and observing the progress and varied abilities in the dogs. What are you doing with your dogs? Denise

I totally agree with Bill Fosher. Denise

Andrea wrote; >You mention getting him to give ground at the end of his flank. Actually, I think I would like him to break off better at the beginning of the flank (without turning right away), but then re-engaging in a positive manner at the end of the flank.< The "name calling" can be used at the begining of the flank as well. This technique was shown to me years ago by Tommy Wilson on Molly right as I started running her in Open. I understood what he was showing me but lacked the skill at the time to do it like I should have. I think I could do it better now if I had her again as a young dog. Basically, what you're trying to do is to get the dog off the sheep a little by saying its name. I don't mean physically off, just a bit of its attention on you. Then you can give the flank in such a way as to not increase the tension in the dog. IMO, many times unsquare flanks are not from the dog failing to feel the sheep but from tension. Ease the tension and the proper flanks just happen. The tension is just covering up the natural. Find a way to uncover the natural in your communication with the dog. Denise

One - Which registry are you talking about? Two - If the new owner does not sign as breeder when registering the pups, then who will? Certainly the deceased breeder can't. What is the alternative?

A natural method for helping this is to have him drive sheep that are wanting to break back. For instance, use him to push the sheep off when you feed grain or separate a ewe from its lambs or visa versa and put them right behind where he's pushing them away. They learn to square off correctly in these situations because the sheep will get away if they don't. You're tapping into to a major instinct to help you correct a problem. This will normally be a more effective way to teach a dog the right way to do things. Otherwise, I would try to get him to give a little more ground at the end of his flank by walking with him and calling his name to get him to just barely come off them. I've had a few like this and if you want them to learn to flank on proper contact, you don't want to fight them too much to give ground. They want to stay "on" the sheep - too much. If you just ask them to give up a little contact at a time, they'll be more inclined to comply as they feel more comfortable and trust that you aren't trying to take the sheep away from them. If you insist on the perfect flank in your mind, and try to force it, it may result in either them going completely off contact (I've seen this a lot with this type of dog) or they become more tense and fight you because they think you're trying to take the sheep away from them. A wise Irishman, Simon Mosse, once said to me something to the effect of, don't worry about what the flanks *look* like. Worry about whether they're appropriate for the particular sheep they're working at the time. JMHO Denise

Andrea, I'm happy to let you have any of the pictures I took of Joe. I have at least three or four. Email me. Christie, Thanks for your kind words. The camera is a Nikon Coolpix 5700. It's considered a "prosumer" camera, not a DSLR, though definitely not a point and shoot. It's a 5 mega pixel camera and the in-camera zoom is quite good at 35 to 280 mm. I can get shutter speeds up to 1/4,000 of a sec. Most of those on the link were shot at around 1/1,000 of a sec. It will also do a three shot per second continuous burst mode that I use quite a bit for action shots. It's small enough and has the "whole package in one" enough to carry around everywhere. I love it. Denise

First off. Virgil, there's some history here you may not be aware of. I find it disconcerting that people can chase almost everyone else away from a forum, finally move, and then have that first forum deemed not as helpful in the wake. Sorry that I couldn't let that go. As far as talking you into a border collie because your acds are too hardheaded. I've got some pretty hardhearded border collies so they can certainly be that way too. Your acds may be the best for what you do. What are your main uses for a dog - do you mainly drive stock, need dogs to bring them in, work chutes, have the same stock or change out a lot, have great numbers, and over how much and what type of land? I've heard from many cattle people who aren't committed to one breed or the other say that a good border collie is the best cattle dog you can have. But the key is what is a good dog in your situation? I have sheep. I've only worked cattle some over the years and never any that have been previously dogbroke. I occasionally help neighbors and friends around here who don't have working dogs so I only have experience with local types of unbroke beef cattle. However, I do hang around with cattle people sometimes. One thing I would caution you about - there are some pretty macho people out there, border collie people included, who don't think a dog is doing a good job unless it's always chewing up the cattle. If it looks like they're more into how much the dog is biting than if the cattle are going where they're supposed to be going, I'd look elsewhere. Denise

Kim wrote: >You will get some info here but I would go to http://www.kensmuir.com/forums/ message board. These folks broke off this board so they could discuss more in the way of herding so they might actually be more helpful.< I've thought a lot about whether to respond or let this go and I've decided I can't let it go but I'll try to be as diplomatic as I can. Kim, I think a lot of people who chose to stay exclusively with this forum take exception to being described as less helpful than those in the one you mention. Since many of the real stockdog people left or never posted here because they didn't want to put up with the attitudes of some of those formally on this list, it may take some time for herding talk to build back up again. I think useful herding topics are, and will continue to be, discussed here. Denise